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Old 01-13-2008, 01:39 PM   #121
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If ROAR is going to put them together, then they should open up the rules on the brushed units. That whole bushing in the motor should go, put some bearings in there. That would be the first step I take, especially if you are allowing brushless motors into the class.

Too bad the Late Big Jim isn't alive, I really would like to see his input on this.
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Old 01-13-2008, 01:47 PM   #122
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Electric Mugen MBx5 1/8 Truggy huh, I wanna do that someday.

Yeah they do need to allow bearings in the motor anyhow, I cannot belive they dont?
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Old 01-13-2008, 02:45 PM   #123
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The stock rules at my track are 13.5, and everyone is slowly switching over. Once everyone makes the switch, it won't matter if you can miss a a corner and still make a double- because the tracks wqill become more difficult and the best drivers will rise to the top again.

Keep them separate at large races. Make the "Stock brush", "13.5" and "Open". Phase out brushed motors by the end of next year.

If you let the brush motors open up the rules to run with 13.5, It will cost a ton for R&D and stock motor prices will go through the roof- defeating the purpose completely. If you don't adopt 13.5, you've made hundreds of racer's technology obsolete.

An "equivelency formula" will only hurt the hobby.
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Old 01-13-2008, 03:06 PM   #124
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The stock rules at my track are 13.5, and everyone is slowly switching over. Once everyone makes the switch, it won't matter if you can miss a a corner and still make a double- because the tracks wqill become more difficult and the best drivers will rise to the top again.

Keep them separate at large races. Make the "Stock brush", "13.5" and "Open". Phase out brushed motors by the end of next year.

If you let the brush motors open up the rules to run with 13.5, It will cost a ton for R&D and stock motor prices will go through the roof- defeating the purpose completely. If you don't adopt 13.5, you've made hundreds of racer's technology obsolete.

An "equivelency formula" will only hurt the hobby.
I think its the other way around, we are wanting to open up the rules to allow brushless to run with current brushed. If that is the case, I can see an arguement that brushless needs to conform more with current brushed stock than the other way around.

Brushless motors also aren't exactly cheap either. As for R&D, thats dependent on who is willing to do that. Market forces will phase out one technology over the other eventually.

As for making 13.5 technology obsolete, as far as the ROAR stock class goes, I am not sure how exactly that is possible as local tracks already do what they want to do.
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Old 01-13-2008, 04:02 PM   #125
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The point of this thread is to offer public input to ROAR so that they can establish the spec for brushless in the future. Coming on here and calling BL cheating is pointless and inaccurate. If YOUR (not ROAR or any other rules making body) track allows it, it's not cheating. It is only cheating if the rules say that you CAN'T run it.

Making rules around what is equivalent to brushed is counter productive. I think ROAR should pick the BL motor winds for whatever classes are to be run based on what they think the correct speeds should be, not whether or not they match up well with their brushed counterparts. That said, I agree with the side conversation that stock is now much faster than it was only 5 years ago. How about making stock 17.5 BL, non sintered rotors only and NO brushed motors? Tamper proof, econimical, long lasting, and slower. That is what stock should be and hasn't been since the mid 80's.
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Old 01-13-2008, 05:20 PM   #126
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The stock rules at my track are 13.5, and everyone is slowly switching over. Once everyone makes the switch, it won't matter if you can miss a a corner and still make a double- because the tracks wqill become more difficult and the best drivers will rise to the top again.

Keep them separate at large races. Make the "Stock brush", "13.5" and "Open". Phase out brushed motors by the end of next year.

If you let the brush motors open up the rules to run with 13.5, It will cost a ton for R&D and stock motor prices will go through the roof- defeating the purpose completely. If you don't adopt 13.5, you've made hundreds of racer's technology obsolete.

An "equivelency formula" will only hurt the hobby.

No R&D Needed. Let brushed guys run a bearing motor with a 22 turn armature. It would be even again.

make a 22 turn the new stock if they keep the 13.5 standard.
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Old 01-13-2008, 06:18 PM   #127
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I agree Elfwizard!
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Old 01-13-2008, 08:15 PM   #128
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No R&D Needed. Let brushed guys run a bearing motor with a 22 turn armature. It would be even again.

make a 22 turn the new stock if they keep the 13.5 standard.
I've got no problem with that. I'm going brushless because of the maintenance and longevity, not for more power. We're going to go through this debate again next year deciding LiPo's. I'm always siding on the technology that requires less maintenance and lasts longer.
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Old 01-13-2008, 09:12 PM   #129
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Brushless is tottally new for me also, but never even crossed my mind
to use brushless in stock class. I'm staying in modified 4wd buggy.
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Old 01-14-2008, 10:11 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by Davidka View Post
Making rules around what is equivalent to brushed is counter productive. I think ROAR should pick the BL motor winds for whatever classes are to be run based on what they think the correct speeds should be, not whether or not they match up well with their brushed counterparts. That said, I agree with the side conversation that stock is now much faster than it was only 5 years ago. How about making stock 17.5 BL, non sintered rotors only and NO brushed motors? Tamper proof, econimical, long lasting, and slower. That is what stock should be and hasn't been since the mid 80's.
I think the part that I disagree with you on is that if this is supposed to be a brushless class that allows both brushed and brushless, I think it needs to be made (the rules) around what is equivalent to brushed. now if this is going the route where the default "stock" is the brushless motor, and we just allow in brushed (ie- reverse of what I think is trying to be done now), may be that would work out better.

As for the whole non-sintered thing, doesn't the armature being sintered improve motor life? If so, I woudl want that in there, not out.
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Old 01-14-2008, 10:29 AM   #131
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Sintered arms are supposed to improve life but I think it's more that they are much more powerful magnets and resist overheating much better which is not an issue in low power motors. Bonded rotors would also help to keep the motor cost from rising. Another cost cutter would be molded plastic housings instead of expensive aluminum (not to mention lighter weight).

What I am asking here is why is there a need to try to run BL and brushed together? Just change the rules to govern BL an phase brushed motors out for spec classes completely. Like many have observed, 27t with the latest motors and batteries is probably too fast for what stock was intended to be. Choosing a BL motor that runs evenly with the 27t stuff will just make rules that guarantee that stock will continue to be borderline too fast without further changes down the road. Stock could be re-established altogether here.

I think it's pointless to keep making rules to keep them going and it's pointless to change the rules to further development of brushed motors. The BL movement has grown extremely fast despite the rules because consumers are buying what is clearly the better powerplant.
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Old 01-14-2008, 08:54 PM   #132
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Quote:
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We're going to go through this debate again next year deciding LiPo's. I'm always siding on the technology that requires less maintenance and lasts longer.
Next year??? Lipos are going to be legal in ROAR this year. The rules should be on the website soon.
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Old 01-14-2008, 09:47 PM   #133
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... The BL movement has grown extremely fast despite the rules because consumers are buying what is clearly the better powerplant.

i think "The BL movement has grown extremely fast BECAUSE OF THE LACK OF rules because consumers are buying what is clearly the better powerplant" is more accurate.
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Old 01-15-2008, 04:41 AM   #134
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Notice the CRCRC race this weekend stock truck class with brushed motors and nickel batteries only allowed was a rather small class when they could have allowed the 13.5 motors and li-pos would have made it one of the largest classes. Face it the old technology that was killing electric off-road racing is slowly going away!
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Old 01-15-2008, 11:27 AM   #135
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I think the single most important issue here is the price cap that used to be imposed on stock motor racing.

For electric racing to continue, it must have a certain growth rate.
There needs to be an affordable class. Today the kids out there can begin racing stock class with a $40 esc, and a $30 motor. I realize that we don't really use that stuff but it is availiable.

The BL systems, at $200 being a good deal makes it harder for new racers to come in to the hobby. That is like telling a kid he needs a GTX, a tuned motor, and 4500's to give racing a try. Dad's are going to say no!

There must be a system in place to keep the cost of stock racing down (for beginners at least). I spend plenty on my equipment and see it as part of the hobby, and I am sure most of you do. We will adapt, keep racing, whine a little, but overall we'll be fine. If the kids stop coming into the hobby, we all go home.

I don't care what class I race in, or what it's called, as long as I have somebody to race. ROAR please keep it cheap!
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