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Old 01-15-2008, 11:49 AM   #136
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i think "The BL movement has grown extremely fast BECAUSE OF THE LACK OF rules because consumers are buying what is clearly the better powerplant" is more accurate.
I would have to disagree with you on this.
Personally I bought brushless for a couple of different reasons. First is the lack of maintnence compared to brushed motors, Second and what was the most important to me any way, was the longer run times, and third was I didnt have to buy the tools that are necessary to cut coms, buy brushes and springs ect...

Getting back into the hobby after many years of being away, it saved me money in the long run, and I didnt have to re learn brushed motors.

Just my .02 - and I am sure that many others feel the same way.
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Old 01-15-2008, 11:53 AM   #137
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I think the single most important issue here is the price cap that used to be imposed on stock motor racing.

For electric racing to continue, it must have a certain growth rate.
There needs to be an affordable class. Today the kids out there can begin racing stock class with a $40 esc, and a $30 motor. I realize that we don't really use that stuff but it is availiable.

The BL systems, at $200 being a good deal makes it harder for new racers to come in to the hobby. That is like telling a kid he needs a GTX, a tuned motor, and 4500's to give racing a try. Dad's are going to say no!

There must be a system in place to keep the cost of stock racing down (for beginners at least). I spend plenty on my equipment and see it as part of the hobby, and I am sure most of you do. We will adapt, keep racing, whine a little, but overall we'll be fine. If the kids stop coming into the hobby, we all go home.

I don't care what class I race in, or what it's called, as long as I have somebody to race. ROAR please keep it cheap!
What about the Brushless RTR's offered by Losi and Traxxas? Those packages are < $400 for the car, esc, and radio ( < $300 for the Traxxas). The Traxxas VXL system is only like $150. Just cause you can't afford a $230 Novak or LRP system doesn't mean you can't race brushless. My guess is they perform about the same.

Heck, a year ago before I went brushless, I had an LRP QC2 with a Monster Stock motor. It was basically a top of the line ESC. Not everyone had one of those yet all of us were very competitive. Some people were pimpin the Novak XRS...a $40 ESC.

All I am saying is you don't need to have the best in stock to be competitive. Some people though are always going to spend more thinking it will make them better. I am guilty of that myself :P
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Old 01-15-2008, 11:56 AM   #138
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There must be a system in place to keep the cost of stock racing down (for beginners at least). I spend plenty on my equipment and see it as part of the hobby, and I am sure most of you do. We will adapt, keep racing, whine a little, but overall we'll be fine. If the kids stop coming into the hobby, we all go home.

I don't care what class I race in, or what it's called, as long as I have somebody to race. ROAR please keep it cheap!
This should be up to the manafactures to produce less expensive, competitive components. Over time the prices will come down and it will not be that big of an issue. Roar shouldnt be the price police, they have other things to worry about.

Cheap is competitive. I consistantly get beat by guys that buy second hand, and less expensive equiptment than I have. If there is a kid that "needs" a GTB and tuned motor, he is in a different league than the majority of drivers.

In my years off and on in this sport, I have never met anyone that "needed" a very expensive set up to win. Its not normally a nececity more so than a want.

Just thinking out loud.
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Old 01-15-2008, 12:00 PM   #139
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I just got back into the hobby after 15 years and my friends who were still in it said to go brushless/LiPo from the get go. I will NEVER go back to NiMH or Brushed motors. I enjoy my time at the track so much more now and love not having to cut comms and discharge/ equalize packs anymore. The 15-20 minute run times are good too. At the CRC race there were guys waiting behind you to get a spot on the stand and one guy kept pointing out to anyone standing behind me that I was running brushless/LiPo and that he would be waiting for a while to get on....lol
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Old 01-15-2008, 12:49 PM   #140
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If we are looking at stock class as the beginner friendly class, I don't think it has worked out that way.

Stock class or another spec class that specs on the motor primarily (ala 19T) is pretty expensive when you get down too it. It may have the initial illusion up front that its cheap, but all it takes is one pass through the pits to see where all the dollars are being spent. Is this something that is a problem at every track, of course not.

I think as prices start to come down, brushless will become more affordable as an entry point. Heck, I see traxxas brushless buggys for sale NIB for $250 shipped. add your battery and charger and go. Thats pretty cheap running.
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Old 01-15-2008, 12:55 PM   #141
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I would have to disagree with you on this.
Personally I bought brushless for a couple of different reasons. First is the lack of maintnence compared to brushed motors, Second and what was the most important to me any way, was the longer run times, and third was I didnt have to buy the tools that are necessary to cut coms, buy brushes and springs ect...

Getting back into the hobby after many years of being away, it saved me money in the long run, and I didnt have to re learn brushed motors.

Just my .02 - and I am sure that many others feel the same way.
i totally agree with you! that's why i've ditched my brushed stuff too.

my point was .. the initial lack of rules or guidelines on what constitutes stock BL has led to the proliferation of stock BLs. which is a good thing to bring BL to the masses.
BUT it creates a massive amount of confusion and headache as ROAR now tries to streamline the various classes.
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Old 01-15-2008, 01:05 PM   #142
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[QUOTE=Cain;4077669]

Stock class or another spec class that specs on the motor primarily (ala 19T) is pretty expensive when you get down too it. It may have the initial illusion up front that its cheap, but all it takes is one pass through the pits to see where all the dollars are being spent. QUOTE]

That's right on the money. If a racer can't afford a $200 BL system then they can't afford to race stock either. While the motor costs $40 (it used to be $25) and a speed control can be had for $60-$80 this is only the cost to get started. Once performance of that motor starts falling off (5-10 runs) the new racer will find out that they need a comm lathe (getting cheaper because of BL but still..) and continuous brush replacemet until after a couple of months they need another new motor. Add that to the realization that the best performing 6-cell packs don't stay fast for that long and now Stock is wildly expensive to even compete. BL and LiPo completely fixes all of that.

Rules or lack thereof had nothing to do with people buying into BL, in many cases, racers bought BL despite the rules at their local tracks and gave the track owners an ultimatum, let us run BL or lose our business. The rules obviously changed because of it.
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Old 01-15-2008, 04:15 PM   #143
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Next year??? Lipos are going to be legal in ROAR this year. The rules should be on the website soon.
Music to my ears. FS: my T30. WT for Duratrax ICE
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Old 01-15-2008, 04:29 PM   #144
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Music to my ears. FS: my T30. WT for Duratrax ICE
Can't wait to start selling the big dollar matched lipo packs! And the computer tuned brushless motors that will still smoke when pushed to hard. Ah, racing.
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Old 01-15-2008, 06:22 PM   #145
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All this discussion for a motor that stopped being a stock motor when Ernie (founder of trinity) made an endbell to allow slotcar brushes and adjustable timing on a closed endbell motor. We really need to call this what it is, Hot spec. If you want stock go back to the old RS 540 27 turn, no timing motor. I do agree though, open up the "stock" rules to allow some technological progression
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Old 01-15-2008, 06:58 PM   #146
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What about the LRP 15.5 brushless motor. I saw that in the catalouge that came with my sphere. Probably dead spot on with a 27 turn
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Old 01-16-2008, 08:06 AM   #147
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cut and paste from the other ROAR and BL thread.... sorry guys.. its hard enough to keep up with one thread discussing this....

so.. home from the meeting.... We met most of the evening Friday, all day Saturday and took a little break to visit the AMA convention next door and then all day Sunday. The minutes will be posted on the website shortly, (as soon as Corey gets his email).. and you will see nine pages of information we widdled down to something readable.

But.. you want to know..

Yes, 27T and 17.5 is the stock class of racing in ROAR competition and ... This will slow down the stock class of racing as it needs to be and maintain the stock brushed motor use at most events, especially off road, we are assuming.

19T and 10.5 is the Super Stock class. (formerly called 19T class) We recommend local programs stick with what they are doing that is working for their integration of brushed and brushless motor racing. In 2009, 13.5 will be the Super Stock class.

I'm sure there are criticisms, questions and probably even a little disappointment out there. We took the future of ROAR racing, our membership and our affliates into consideration. I'm sure you all can understand the position the Excom was placed in and the decisions were not made hastily. This thread was extremely insightful and educational for me and I thank each of you.

AND.. GEORGE CHERRY.. LIPO 7.4V BATTERIES ARE APPROVED IN ALL 6 CELL SUB-C 7.2V CLASSES.... SO WHERE IS YOUR MEMBERSHIP FORM??
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Old 01-16-2008, 09:28 AM   #148
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Good job guys!
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Old 01-16-2008, 09:33 AM   #149
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Dawn,

Few questions if you don't mind:

1. Since 2009 the 13.5 will be the super stock (former 19T) class, what happens to the 10.5, is that grand fathered in or is another seperate class? Would hate to buy a 10.5 now and its no longer legal in a year.

2. For the motors from companies like Castle Creations (4600, 5700, etc), where do these fall or are they left out completely?

3. Any changes for the brushed motors, like allowing bearings?
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Old 01-16-2008, 09:51 AM   #150
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Dawn,

Few questions if you don't mind:

1. Since 2009 the 13.5 will be the super stock (former 19T) class, what happens to the 10.5, is that grand fathered in or is another seperate class? Would hate to buy a 10.5 now and its no longer legal in a year.

2. For the motors from companies like Castle Creations (4600, 5700, etc), where do these fall or are they left out completely?

3. Any changes for the brushed motors, like allowing bearings?
Quick answers:

1. It'll be modified.

2. They need to send in for approval based on the rules. Patrick was involved in the committee writing the new rules.

3. Nope, not yet.
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