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Old 08-14-2007, 05:07 AM   #16
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You don't have to test them for me, I do my own testing with high speed chassis breaking battery flinging crashes and I have not burned one up yet in 4 years of competitive racing with them!
Weather you want it or not I do test them. Before any pack design gets out I have run it through a ringer. I know at what point the thing will explode and when it will start to pillow. I know how far it can be pushed. In 7 years of this I have never had a blow out that was not intentional. The facts are that they CAN be dangerous, more so then nixx batteries. The burning lithium that gets splattered all over will burn you skin past 2nd degree and can be a severe 3rd degree burn easily. The shrapnel from a nixx can be very serious also. Dont get me wrong they both can be bad but just do the math. With the 'potential' (I am using this word to describe the amount of energy stored in a battery) stored in lipo batteries their explosive power is much greater.

This is one reason the military has insane guidelines for lipo batteries and protective cases they must be in. liion and nixx batteries dont have near the same criteria.
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Old 08-14-2007, 08:21 AM   #17
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Weather you want it or not I do test them.
For whom exactly? What testing procedures? Are you an affiliate of a particular group?

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Before any pack design gets out I have run it through a ringer.
Any? Again.. whom?

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I know at what point the thing will explode and when it will start to pillow. I know how far it can be pushed. In 7 years of this I have never had a blow out that was not intentional.
More blanket statements without citing a product in specific. Surely you don't work for 'everyone' .

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The facts are that they CAN be dangerous, more so then nixx batteries.
Chemistry itself is dangerous. Did you know that if you mix certain cleaning chemicals you could create toxic fumes that will kill you? I suppose I should stop mixing them to clean my toilet.

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The burning lithium that gets splattered all over will burn you skin past 2nd degree and can be a severe 3rd degree burn easily.
What about soldering iron accidents? Should those be banned from the trackside to?

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The shrapnel from a nixx can be very serious also. Dont get me wrong they both can be bad but just do the math.
Shrapnel from the niXX is far more serious then 'splattering hot lithium all over' How well would a hand grenade work if it's 'guts' were encased in aluminum foil? And what math would that be? I like math!

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With the 'potential' (I am using this word to describe the amount of energy stored in a battery) stored in lipo batteries their explosive power is much greater.
Potential... thats a good word!! but has nothing to do with 'potential' blast force.

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This is one reason the military has insane guidelines for lipo batteries and protective cases they must be in. liion and nixx batteries dont have near the same criteria.
They do it to protect the energy, not the people. Your electric equipment is useless in the field without power. Cite an example of the military caring about it's soldiers. Here is one that comes to mind:



I guess they should have used ni-XX cells !!

Furthermore, you sir are making a LOT of blanket statements regarding this technology. And in regards to 'explosive' power, that is entirely up to containment versus chemical reaction. A complex mathematical process that requires a controlled enviroment for testing and a expansive knowledge of the items under test. Things I don't believe you posses.
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Old 08-14-2007, 08:55 AM   #18
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I think you should stop mixing chemicals to clean your toliet, there are plenty of safe products available for purchase that clean toliets fine. The military is supposed to save civilian lives first, and soldiers typically wear armor and have weapons to defend themselves, but bad things happen in battle regardless.

the danger with some lipo batteries, is that they ignite and catch fire, and fire spreds and burns other things like buildings and people in them. Hot srapnel from a an exploding nimh stops after causing its initial damage, i.e. a wall or an eye. ROAR should ban IB4200 Nimh batteries and all dangerous versions of Lipo cells.
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Old 08-14-2007, 10:11 AM   #19
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You just do not get it. I can say the I do some testing for Max Amps but for my other clients I have NDA's and I cannot reveal information.

I have spoken in exact terms, but it seems that you do not listen. There is no reason to go into the chemical brake down. I think that lipos are what is going to save this sport in total. In California and many places in Europe they are cracking down on nitro cars for the noise and pollution to the poiont that you cannot even run them in places. The answer for this is lipo and liion batteries till nano technology comes full swing.

Look weather you want to hear it or believe it or not lipo's CAN be vary hazerdious and dangerous. Good grief havent you heard of the cell phones that have blown up in peoples pockets or the lap tops that have cought fire for what seemed like no reason?

I never even mentioned banning anything. I dont know where you got that from. And the burning lithium can and dose burn right into your skin deeply. I said that the shrapnel is very dangerous also. I dont understand your contention. Potential most certinally dose have to do with blast force. How else do you calulate the elpolsive forces before you blow something up? You must know the 'potential' of the explosive involved. Aosl weather the military dose their limiting to protect the unit or the man is not the point. the point is that they reconize the 'potential' inclosed and have planed for it.

The possabilities are with all lipo batteries not some. But I will say that some are better than others.

Think what you want. I know the facts and am trying to offer advice.
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Old 08-14-2007, 10:28 AM   #20
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I think the point a lot are trying to make is lipos do not explode in the sense that NiMH do. It's the difference between a flare and an M80. One explodes, the other shoots out flames. In any video or description of lipo failure I've seen or heard of I would not classify as an explosion happening. More like a rocket/flare going off. Not that we think that's a necessarily a better thing of course.
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Old 08-14-2007, 10:32 AM   #21
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I agree to a point, that Lithium are dangerous. That's why the rules for their use, needs to be enforced for practical use. But because they are not allowed at most tracks because of the potential dangers, NIMH are more dangerous. I know guy that charge their NIMH batteries with 10 amps, dead short them to drop resistance, use a zapper to lower resistance and pump voltage and other things that would not be tolerated by LIPO or LI-anything for that matter. That's what makes NIMH slightly More dangerous for now, because these practices are widely accepted and those who do them, don't know the potential for disaster. I'm not saying Lithiums are any better, but following the rules helps a lot
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Old 08-14-2007, 10:54 AM   #22
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I know guy that charge their NIMH batteries with 10 amps, dead short them to drop resistance, use a zapper to lower resistance and pump voltage and other things that would not be tolerated by LIPO or LI-anything for that matter.
not tolerated by Lipo yet
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Old 08-14-2007, 11:01 AM   #23
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has anyone here from the A123 batteries? I am extremely interested in these, especially since there core build is safe from what I have read, but they appear to be kind of on the big side and need trimming to the chassis if you want to run a 4600 setup. The pic I have seen however was in a XXXT, which I know has alitlte tighter fit for the battery tray. Anyone try these in a T4?

As for LiMN, anyone try these too? I know Apogee makes them, though prices could be a bit better considering I don't think they come in a hard case.

I am leaning towards lipo for next year, just finish out with what I got but really want to go with whatever is the safest tech. A hard case that protects the cells doesn't seem like a bad thing especially i fyou get T-boned when running 4wd with the pack down the side.

Maybe maxamps could make a case you could add on to your order?
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Old 08-14-2007, 11:34 AM   #24
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It was posted a little while ago (somewhat insinuated) by MrBlack that Orion packs use LiMn type cells. Take that as you will, I'm sure I can dig up the post if you are interested.

Edit: I take this back. linger has since corrected that claim.

Last edited by kuzo; 08-14-2007 at 06:12 PM.
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Old 08-14-2007, 12:43 PM   #25
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I was at the track Sunday racing where an 1/8th scale nitro buggy caught fire from fuel spilled from over filling during a pit stop with the fire burning almost invisible burning the pit guys hands a little, so that being said that nickel batteries , li-po batteries and even nitro fuel needed to be respected and handled with care!

Got to go race my gas truck at the ROAR Gas truck Nats this week!
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Old 08-14-2007, 03:16 PM   #26
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You just do not get it. I can say the I do some testing for Max Amps but for my other clients I have NDA's and I cannot reveal information.
What is it exactly that I don't get? I asked simple questions. Simple answers are all that is required. And who are you to talk to people like they are your children because they can't seem to comprehend what your supposedly trying to confer?

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I have spoken in exact terms, but it seems that you do not listen.
Again with this statement. You have spoken in very vague, and poorly composed statements. If your trying to confer something in specific, try thinking out your next response. Use of good English would really help me to understand you. I don't exactly compose the best example of English on the planet, so If i'm having a hard time understanding you, there is something wrong. This is not about 'listening' to what you 'say', but about 'reading' what you 'type' .

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There is no reason to go into the chemical brake down.
Sure there is, you just have no idea where to start. Do the folks you supposedly test for know that?

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I think that lipos are what is going to save this sport in total.
The only thing that is going to save this sport is losing some regulation and about 6 or 7 million playstation's and xbox's. Don't blame batteries for a kids lack of interest in anything today.

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In California and many places in Europe they are cracking down on nitro cars for the noise and pollution to the poiont that you cannot even run them in places. The answer for this is lipo and liion batteries till nano technology comes full swing.
TREEHUGGERS... the lot of 'em.. 'even noise is pollution' - BLEH!! Let's just force the kids into they're homes to smoke dope because they can't do anything anymore. The spotted owl has rights too!! How are they supposed to sleep with all that noise?!?

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Look weather you want to hear it or believe it or not lipo's CAN be vary hazerdious and dangerous. Good grief havent you heard of the cell phones that have blown up in peoples pockets or the lap tops that have cought fire for what seemed like no reason?
Sure.. never argued the hazards. Simply argued that they are not any more dangerous then crossing the street every day. Good grief! Haven't you heard about people getting hit by buses?!?

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I never even mentioned banning anything. I dont know where you got that from.
Simple really. Keep running your trap about 'how dangerous it all is' and it will be banned sooner or later. You don't think your statements are having a positive effect on anything, do you?

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And the burning lithium can and dose burn right into your skin deeply.
Never argued this either.

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I said that the shrapnel is very dangerous also.
Agreed.. twice in a row!!

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I dont understand your contention.
Becoming any clearer?

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Potential most certinally dose have to do with blast force. How else do you calulate the elpolsive forces before you blow something up? You must know the 'potential' of the explosive involved.
But thats not the potential you referred to here:

''''' With the 'potential' (I am using this word to describe the amount of energy stored in a battery) stored in lipo batteries their explosive power is much greater. '''''

I would interpret that as electrical potential. Maybe I'm just 'not listening to you' again

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Think what you want. I know the facts and am trying to offer advice.
But I want the 'facts' not the 'advice'

Hook up the uneducated masses with your wisdom please. You claim to know all this stuff. I just want to know too!!

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Old 08-14-2007, 03:48 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by kuzo View Post
It was posted a little while ago (somewhat insinuated) by MrBlack that Orion packs use LiMn type cells. Take that as you will, I'm sure I can dig up the post if you are interested.
Perhaps Mr. Black was misinformed, but the Kokam formulation is definitely not the LIMN (Spinel) formulation.

Wow, soo much hate on this thread.
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Old 08-14-2007, 03:53 PM   #28
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Wow, soo much hate on this thread.
No sir! Zero hate in my blood for anyone here. Not that your statement was directed at me alone, just my answer to that statement on my own behalf.

This man simply states that he has the 'li-po low down' and I want it. But so far I have been greeted with illegible statements, very little fact, a whole bunch of speculation, and now I'm being told that 'I just don't listen'

HELP!!

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Old 08-14-2007, 06:08 PM   #29
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I just figured out who this "TechWun" moron is. He has hounded me other places and he is unwilling to learn a thing from anyone. He is fully aware that I cannot divulge things and because he thinks he is a guru and should be allowed all things he cries and gets mad. He cant challenge on a knowledge he can only try to shot down segments.

I am over him and all his statements. I will not be responding to anything that he states because he is full of hate for anyone that has more than he. And from what I have heard that is almost everyone.

Good by Matt. You are black listed here also.
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Old 08-14-2007, 06:10 PM   #30
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Perhaps Mr. Black was misinformed, but the Kokam formulation is definitely not the LIMN (Spinel) formulation.

Wow, soo much hate on this thread.
Interesting. Thank you for the correction.
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