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Old 08-06-2007, 05:45 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by Rick Hohwart View Post
I have tried 5-cell in both off-road and TC and find it to be an excellent tuning option. And I applaud ROAR for reducing the minimum weight (by the weight of one cell) at the TC Nats.

But it should be an option. Thos that are using 5-cell are doing so becasue they think it is faster. There is no need to penalize those that want to use 6-cell by outlawing it.

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Old 08-06-2007, 05:48 PM   #92
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i have read throughout this thread, and i still dont see why we would want to reduce cells. i think if we reduce cells, than we throw lipo out the door, hindering technological advancement. it would be like going from fuel injection back to carburators on real cars. now, i understand reducung cells is to make more of a sportman class, and to "preserve" parts, but that is a very specialized, and small majority of the rc world.

thus, i am against anyhting less than 6 cells for offroad use. its just fine the way it is.
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Old 08-06-2007, 05:53 PM   #93
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5 cell is just a tuning option for me,
yeah it works great for low traction tracks,
i have run them a couple of times,
6 cells with 15+ runs on them feel the same as a new 5 cell pack.

all I buy now are Lipos, charge up a 7.4 V 8000 pack the night before and run 3 Q's and a main with it
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Old 08-06-2007, 05:55 PM   #94
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Here's a thought, a lot of 5 cell drivers say they run faster lap times. Lipo tends to run at a disadvantage voltage-wise to good 6 cell packs until you get to mod. Everyone says electric needs drastic change to survive. How's this for drastic - mix them all.

6 cell drivers can't complain as they clearly feel they'd have the advantage over both the others.
5 cell drivers claim they run faster so what can they complain about? Give them a chance to prove it in mixed racing.
Lipo users will be just as happy to be allowed to run.

Win-Win?
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Old 08-06-2007, 06:05 PM   #95
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I and many I know will not race electric any longer without LiPo. The restrictor plate references are not a good comparison because not all batteries are created equal. Instead of placing a cell number limit on racing why don't they impose a voltage cap of 6v. Every speed control manufacturer could manage a speed control that limited output to 6v and we could run LiPo and NiMh together and no one would have as much of a "team" battery advantage (ir would still figure in). The speed controls could even be adjustable so that were the rules to vary from track to track (in 3 years I have never been to a ROAR sanctioned event) your gear wouldn't be limited. Voltage regulators are the answer. Combined with the tamper proof nature of B/L this would insure that those who are sick of wallet racing could come back to electric.
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Old 08-06-2007, 06:19 PM   #96
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F1, NASCAR, MotoGP etc have all had limitations imposed to slow them down, sure. GP bikes went from 1000cc to 800cc and were faster. Why? Because other aspects are rapidly moving forward, like weight distribution, tire technology etc.

I reckon that until something ELSE changes with our hobby, then it could be harder to go faster by only limiting the voltage (5-cell). I refer specifically to 4WD mod because yes, I can see how you could go faster in 2WD. But my point is that if we're reducing straight line speed, the we need to increase corner speed to go faster right?

Tires still seem to be a major limiting factor for us.

As for blowing up equipment, haven't had an issue for years. Never seen a nimh explode, nothing. Anything electrical has a margain for error, I think it's the exception and not the rule though.

If you guys are going faster with 5-cell, then run 5-cell! I'll stick with 6 thanks.
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Old 08-06-2007, 06:53 PM   #97
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5 cell seems like a band aid fix. I wonder how much politics are involved with all the 5 cell talk by manufacturers who have missed or are missing the LiPo boat?

LiPo is the future of the hobby. It's a no brainer....
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Old 08-06-2007, 07:03 PM   #98
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IMO But changing to 5 cells is not going to fix anything. You still have to use discharge trays zappers and have 8+ NIMH packs. What alot of money! With trinity charing a min of $60.00 per pack that is well over $450 just for batteries!! With Lipo's all you need is one battery and a charger. With lipo's running around $140 its a no brainer. Lipo's also last well over a year of solid racing. Can one NIMH pack do that? NO The whole point of switching to Lipo's is to save money and time. I really do not see how going to 5 cells is going to help anything.

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Old 08-06-2007, 07:04 PM   #99
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The performance of electric powered vehicles has improved drastically in the last 5 years. Ironically, the faster they go, the fewer people choose to race them. If faster was better electric should be huge, but its not. Its going the other way, even with Lipo and BL motors.

I think its time to slow the cars down and I would prefer to do it by eliminating mod and 19t and force everyone to run stock. I can hear everyone groan, but I think its the right move. Instead of trying to prove electric is faster, how about just focusing in improving the racing.

When 50 people show up to race 1/8 buggies, they are not separated by .21 and .28 motors or 20% and 30% feul classes. They all run .21 motors with the feul of their choice, qualify together get separated into their mains and race. We need to start doing that with electric - simplify the whole deal with 1 kind of motor and battery per class.

There is room for both battery technologies to co-exist. I'm thinking stock lipo touring cars and stock nimh pan cars.

If stock puts the fast guys all back together, there will be some tight racing, less failures, a better show. Guys will stick around and watch the A main and those who don't make it to the A won't be missing it by as much.
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Old 08-06-2007, 07:10 PM   #100
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I guess you just have to look at the reality of this. Unless ROAR/Ifmar changes the rules it won't happen, you might have a few groups here and there try it or make a local spec class on the on-road scene, and off-road you would see guys use it a tuning option.

Judging by the racers here in my area, the demand is for Lipo, I personally won't have a LiPo pack until they are legal, but the majority is for LiPo, it is the next step in battery technology for this hobby.
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Old 08-06-2007, 07:15 PM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Hohwart View Post
I have tried 5-cell in both off-road and TC and find it to be an excellent tuning option. And I applaud ROAR for reducing the minimum weight (by the weight of one cell) at the TC Nats.

But it should be an option. Thos that are using 5-cell are doing so becasue they think it is faster. There is no need to penalize those that want to use 6-cell by outlawing it.
I am completely with Rick on this one. I was around when we VOLUNTARILY went to 6 cells in 2whl mod because it was quicker and more consistent to get around the track. ROAR then changed the rule to match up our bloc with the rest of the world.

There are so many misconceptions in this thread along with completely useless analogies to full size racing.

Example 1 - You can buy more horsepower over the counter than ANY driver can use in offroad and this has been true for at least 15 years. Mike Truhe didnt need special super high voltage 5-cell packs to win offroad. You can go out and by more horsepower than he was running. He found the best tool he as a driver could use to accomplish the task at hand, win the Nationals.

Example 2 - The Formula 1 teams werent pissed off at the FIA for the 10 cyl change because of a technical advantage, or because of the cars getting slowed down. They were pissed because of the amount of development dollars it would cost for all the teams to switch to a different base motor.

Example 3 - Fullsize racing organizations slow cars down for one reason - insurance companys. When the insurance company says it will no longer cover you unless you slow the cars down, they figure out a way to slow the cars down.

The only reason why we should ever consider a change is based on participation levels of a certain type or class of racing. If participation is dropping, figure out why. Ours is growing and we know why, lower overall costs and easy of maintenance.

Our novices and I'm guessing most of yours (except the track with no novice class, you guys have a huge problem and need to figure it out quick) run 6 cell stick packs. I'm guessing the RTR market wont care one bit if racing goes to 5-cell, they are still going to make all 6-cell stick packs. That just upped the cost for the new racer. Not a good idea in my book.
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Old 08-06-2007, 08:05 PM   #102
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I believe that the main reason why certain classes (8th nitro buggys) are growing is because it is the latest and greatest fad.
All the classes go through cycles. Touring car are now dieing. It has had its run.
It may come back in 5-10 years time just like electric offroad now seems to be doing.
I think people just get sick of doing one thing for a long time. Something else comes along and sparks their interest.
I think in the most part it doesn't matter if we go to lipo or not. Nitro 8th buggies will continue to have their place in the sun until electric 8th buggies take over in about 2-3 years.
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Old 08-06-2007, 08:16 PM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fatbear View Post
I believe that the main reason why certain classes (8th nitro buggys) are growing is because it is the latest and greatest fad.
All the classes go through cycles. Touring car are now dieing. It has had its run.
It may come back in 5-10 years time just like electric offroad now seems to be doing.
I think people just get sick of doing one thing for a long time. Something else comes along and sparks their interest.
I think in the most part it doesn't matter if we go to lipo or not. Nitro 8th buggies will continue to have their place in the sun until electric 8th buggies take over in about 2-3 years.
I believe you are partially right. But the thing to consider is why they become fads and why other things die out. Touring cars became popular because in the beginning you didnt need a permanent facility to race them. Hobby shops would throw a track up in the parking lot. Then the racers would want a smoother track, some hobby shops made permanent tracks. Then the cars got better and more expensive. Tires went from being good for 3 race days to 3 runs. Then it got too expensive for most people and they either quit the hobby or switched to something else. Hence the recent growth of electric offroad.
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Old 08-06-2007, 08:45 PM   #104
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Hey mr Tripthreat. Why not read the majority of the posts here. Don't you dare try to influence ROAR to better suit your needs. The majority here want LIPO, not a step back from 6 cell nimh to 5 cell nimh.

LIPO and BL is the future here. I am not going to ditch all my LIPO equipment to get back to running 5 or 6 cell nimh dinosaur batteries. The future is in lithium batteries.

I don't know anyone at our track running 5 cell nimh. In fact, we are now running 10 minute mains with lipos and bl, and we are possibly going to go 15 minutes next year, and there is talk of going 20 minutes after that. Now that sounds fun, not your crap 5 cell idea with poor runtime and slow speeds. This is a good club too, indoors and hosts the Western Slope Challenge.

If you want to go slower, then use a milder motor. Don't be pushing your crap 5 cell rule on me.

And you believe it is so easy to adjust lithium batteries for 3V when it is a voltage inherent in the chemistry used. Some lithium batteries are around 3V, LI-FE-PO4, but they are more proprietary right now.
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Old 08-06-2007, 08:55 PM   #105
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The question everyone should be asking theirself is.. Who has come out with a non-bl compatible speed control in the last year that doesn't already have a bl compatible one?

you guys need to wake up. Now that the majority of the industry insiders (roar affiliates) are on the ball with brushless and lipo its only a matter of time. Even if we were back 2 years ago discussing this, either choice would see a redesign of many aspects of the hobby (tires,springs, anything weight bearing). but with their actions you can see the choice has been made for something they can easily develop further and put food on the table.

The Florida State Off-Road Series (ROAR series) has approved brushless and lipo for stock classes starting this October. Last year it was allowed in Mod. Locally I would estimate a 1/3 to 1/2 of our average 55 entries a week are running brushless or lipo, or both. I'm one of the few that isn't.
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