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Old 08-12-2007, 09:15 PM   #376
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He's not saying make it a rule. He is saying make it a tuning option. What is so hard about that to understand?
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Old 08-12-2007, 09:21 PM   #377
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Mr. Alford,

It is currently an option under the current rules of ROAR. There are many that would like it as an option, not as a mandate.
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Old 08-12-2007, 09:23 PM   #378
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So then why are you fighting with everyone who post on here that they like 5 cell?
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Old 08-12-2007, 09:30 PM   #379
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Jlock ,I think you are reading what you want to. Which is fine. I am not saying you cant run 6cells, I am not adding another diluted class, so I am not sure how that is turning the hobby on its ear.

This is just what I tried this weekend and what my results were, take it or leave it.
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Old 08-12-2007, 09:36 PM   #380
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Originally Posted by DavidAlford View Post
So then why are you fighting with everyone who post on here that they like 5 cell?
I am not the one fighting (you need to read many of the other posts from other people). I don't care if you like 4,5, or 6 cells. If you go back and read the post that started this thread, the guy is saying that the rules should be changed to make 5-cell the mandate and that 5 cells is going to save the hobby. I say leave the rule at 6-cell since running 5-cell falls within the current rules established.
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Old 08-12-2007, 09:41 PM   #381
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Originally Posted by BillyCaldwell View Post
Jlock ,I think you are reading what you want to. Which is fine. I am not saying you cant run 6cells, I am not adding another diluted class, so I am not sure how that is turning the hobby on its ear.

This is just what I tried this weekend and what my results were, take it or leave it.
All is was noting was that you could have accomplished the same feat using six cells (with probably more throttle control). But, if you feel that you have to drop a cell to accomplish what you did this past weekend, that is cool. But I don't see where you think that my comment was eluding to adding another diluted class. Nowhere in any of my posts have I stated that. So, who is reading what they want to?
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Old 08-13-2007, 12:35 AM   #382
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Originally Posted by SpeedyPenguin View Post
??????

Please say again, preferably in a readable format
Sorry you cant follow the post. Maybe if I go 5 cell slow for you....

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Originally Posted by mfishel View Post
I assume nixx is nimh. but other than that really hard to follow.


nixx is a general term for nicd and nimh. It is like giving a partial model number. If I wan in general talking about the 15 series Neu motors I would use 15xx. The 'xx' could be any of their last 2 digits that Neu uses for the 15 series motors.

I fail to see how it is hard to follow except for the nixx part is is rather easy.... But I will brake it down for you.

I have been reading and looking over this thread for a couple of days now and there is nothing new to this 5 cell nixx junk. I have seen it before and it dose not play out.

Others have tried the 5 volt rule before and it dose not work out.

If anything there needs to be the allowing of higher voltage not lower. If you need slower re-gear or get a slower motor. But lower voltage will do nothing but put a heaver demand on esc and the 5 cells in there. Because to get similar performance you are going to need more amps at a lower voltage.

Instead of going to lower voltages there should be an attempt to raise the voltage. (Warning science content) When you lower voltage you have to raise current levels to get similar performance. This will be even harder on the batteries and require higher current levels in the esc's. This will also create higher tempertures.

With lipo going to take over (sorry if you dont like us lipo guys) the real dilemma needs to be to get safety in there and start developing classes that are based on voltage. You could even give a head up to the nixx guys a little. If you want to run a class where the voltage is a slight spread like 7.2 to 8.4 volts. This will give a little extra the the nixx guys that will help to make up for the lack of current that a nixx battery can drop when compared to a lipo.

Lipo (lithium polymer) batteries are going to be the standard of the sport in the very near future and some sanctioning body should start working this in. To keep nixx (nicd and nimh) in ht emix for now you could use classes divided into voltage classes. If you make the voltage a spread say from 7.2 to 8.4 you would allow 2 cell lipo to race with 7 cell nixx. This will give the nixx a little boost over the lipo thus helping to make up some of the ground that is lost when you start looking into current draws.

This dose level out the playing field a lot. I have experimented with this up to 22.5 volts and there is a attainable playing field that works very nicely.

I have done experimenting and it works.

But this die all to hold onto a old technology that has reached its zenith in development is really sad to me.

Grow up and change with the times.

I have been racing for almost 20 years and have been active in this hobby for almost 30 so I have seen the evolution to what there is now. The sport needs to stop being hindered by the sanctioning bodies like ROAR. Open up the field and let it run. Things will find a proper perspective.

I have been doing this for a long time. ROAR is an anchor to the sport side of RC.

You cant regulate all the performance options. However you can make money doing it. ROAR is very good at this.

Quit over regulating. ROAR is getting paid off to keep the status quot.

I hope this helps. I cant make it any simpler.
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Old 08-13-2007, 12:50 AM   #383
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One comment that I see being mentioned repeatedly is how ROAR is holding up the acceptance of Lipo. ROAR creates rules in coordination with manufacturers. Are any manufacturers currently working with ROAR to create a set of acceptable rules for Lipo batteries? (Ala LRP and Novak did this with the Brushless stuff a couple years ago)
And do you think it is accident that the rules that ROAR come up with eliminated every other manufacturer? Let me answer that, NO it is not.

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So has Orion, Kokam, MaxAmps, etc. submitted any Lipo batteries to them for review?
Several have tried and been turned down for even testing.

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I think ROAR wants to allow Lipo batteries, but they need the assistance of the experts in the field (ie. manufacturers). Part of the reason I think this is the case is this past year's off-road nationals.
I know a couple of guys on the board personally and NO they do not want lipo. What they need form manufacturers is MONEY.

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As for ROAR having rules, that's not a bad thing. Otherwise, safety could become a real issue. I think any new technology should go through a review procedure before being allowed.
Safety should be a concern. But if they wont even talk to you why bother to go to far. ROAR has made their side clear.

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Frank's post about moving to 5 cell is something that we as ROAR members have a direct impact on. It does not need the involvement of the manufacturers. Rather it is a decision that should be decided by the racers and or ex-com. Right or wrong, I'm glad Frank brought up the 5 cell discussion.
ROAR brought up the 5 cell thing in several meetings last year and they decided against it because it would cause a hard ship to the manufacturers that pay them. Having to re-engineer for the lower voltages and the weight change, let alone the chassis changes that would have be done to optimize the 5 cell profile.

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This last part is off-topic. But 4200's in their current state are more dangerous then Lipo's in my opinion.
OK. Your opinion.

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This past weekend, a cell blew in somebody's pit. (He was charging at 2 AMPS!!) Struck him in the butt. leaving a welt several inches wide and causing him to limp most of the day. Additionally, the battery chemicals struck another guy nearby in the face. Luckily he was wearing glasses, otherwise his eyesight could have been severely damaged by the battery acid. The racer, was a new guy, who bought a somewhat cheap charger cuz he is new, and the batteries that everybody else runs. The batteries were about a month old and this was their 3 race. Needless to say, not a good situation. This is one issue I hope ROAR does take a look at.

Paul
Things go wrong all the time. Gee and if you continue to read your statement you see that this was most likely his own fault because he bought a pile of junk charger. Even with my Schulze 660 Chamaleon things can go wrong.
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Old 08-13-2007, 07:57 AM   #384
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Damn, everyone has thier dooms day story on Lipo's and Nimh. lol

You got two story fires for lipo and Nimh being used for drive by shooting. lol

All this talk about 5 cell started because of fried electronics in Modified in world class competion.

My suggestion would be is to have a weight penalty for higher voltage power sources which I beleive they are currently addopting in sedan.

for example 6 cell 1500grams lipo 1520.
5 cell 1420grams

You have one class with the 5 cell, 6 cell, and lipo running together in mod.

Unfortunately I don't think this is an option in 19 turn or even stock.
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Old 08-13-2007, 08:50 AM   #385
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Just to point out and clarify the above post, maybe there was a misunderstanding in the nominal voltage of a 2S LiPo pack; it is 7.4 vlt, not 8.4 vlt. So there wouldn’t be a need for a mod class to have a spread of 7.2-8.4 vlt. Meaning I don't think there's a need for a 7 cell Nixx rule, because the nominal voltage of a 6-cell NiCd/NiMh pack is already 7.2 vlt, and the nominal voltage of a Li-po pack (those offered by Orion/Peak/MaxAmps, etc in 2S config) is already 7.4 vlt (3.7 + 3.7), which is my understanding.

So I'm not sure where the LiPo 8.4 vlt is coming from, or the suggestion of making 7-cell Nixx rule in order to make them be able to run with 2S LiPo’s packs? Perhaps you were thinking of the max voltage that Li-po reaches on the charger?, which would be 8.4 vlt (or 4.2 vlt per cell). NiMh’s reaches a much higher max voltage (over 9 vlt) on the charger when they reach their peak in that case as well. I apologize if I misunderstood your post.

Anyways to the rest of the readers, there’s hardly a difference in 7.2 Nixx & 7.4 LiPo nominal voltages, because the current Nixx cells today (fresh cells in this case, lol) are way powerful and their nominal voltage seems to be anything but 1.2 vlt per cell, lol. (they deliver more power initially than the current crop of 2S-LiPo first few minutes of running on the track if you can believe that already! )

I personally like the LiPo technology, because I think they are the compromise we are looking for when it comes to off-road racing, especially when it comes to smoother power delivery during races and practice on slipper surfaces, rather than explosive power offered by the NiMh first few minutes. Hence the need for those NiMh’s users to consider the 5-cells route, because today’s 6-cells NiMh are considerably more powerful than those offered in the past. I only need to worry myself to adapt my car and driving with the performance characteristics of one "softer & smoother power delivery" Lipo pack for the rest of the day. Rather than adapt my driving/car to the varying performance characteristics of several "high voltage & hi punch" NiMh packs that I charge one after another in that case, lol.

I’m thinking of completing the 7.4 vlt (2S config) Li-Po route very soon in both my 2wd and 4wd off-road cars by selling off rest of my NiMh's packs, and once I do I I'm sure I won’t miss any of my Nixx packs. Gone are the day where I would drag at least 12 packs to the track, and the rest needed equipments. Just one or two LiPo pack, and one charger for the whole day is all you need.

I say keep the current rule as it is, and allow others to run 6-5 cells NiMh as they please and the rest who decide to run LiPo, simply make a rule of 2S configuration of 7.4 nominal voltage just like those offered for our r/c cars by Orion/Peak 3200, 4800’s and MaxAmps, etc and so on. Even Rick Howart suggested keeping the rule as it is when it comes to racer’s choice of either running 6 or 5 cells in their car rather than mandating the 5 cells rule. It wouldn’t be in everyone’s best interest to make the current crop of 6-cells NiMh and 2S-LiPo 7.4 vlt packs obsolete out there, as that would create a lot of issues, confusion, and frustrations at tracks.

Last edited by 4wd Racer; 08-13-2007 at 10:30 AM. Reason: grammar
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Old 08-13-2007, 09:00 AM   #386
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Originally Posted by Francis M. View Post
Damn, everyone has thier dooms day story on Lipo's and Nimh. lol

You got two story fires for lipo and Nimh being used for drive by shooting. lol

All this talk about 5 cell started because of fried electronics in Modified in world class competion.

My suggestion would be is to have a weight penalty for higher voltage power sources which I beleive they are currently addopting in sedan.

for example 6 cell 1500grams lipo 1520.
5 cell 1420grams

You have one class with the 5 cell, 6 cell, and lipo running together in mod.

Unfortunately I don't think this is an option in 19 turn or even stock.


Why is this or even any other on road post in here? If for a reference, as to why and how it worked for the onroad folks I get it, but why dicuss what needs to be done for thonroad guys in the off road forum?
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Old 08-13-2007, 10:21 AM   #387
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All this talk about 5 cell started because of fried electronics in Modified in world class competion.
That is not why this thread was started....
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Old 08-13-2007, 07:00 PM   #388
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Just to point out and clarify the above post, maybe there was a misunderstanding in the nominal voltage of a 2S LiPo pack; it is 7.4 vlt, not 8.4 vlt. So there wouldn’t be a need for a mod class to have a spread of 7.2-8.4 vlt. Meaning I don't think there's a need for a 7 cell Nixx rule, because the nominal voltage of a 6-cell NiCd/NiMh pack is already 7.2 vlt, and the nominal voltage of a Li-po pack (those offered by Orion/Peak/MaxAmps, etc in 2S config) is already 7.4 vlt (3.7 + 3.7), which is my understanding.
No confusion here. Try reading the post. Giving a voltage window of 7.2 to 8.4 would allow someone who wants to run nixx (remember nicd or nimh) to be on a more level playing field against lipo. Here you could run a 2 cell lipo (7.4 vdc) against a nixx pack of 7 cells being 8.4 volts. So yes there is a raeason for a class covering more than one voltage. Now also dont forget that you also can have liion like the A123 cells that are 3.3 volts per cell. So I would even like to see the voltage spread go from 6.6 to 8.4 Here you can cohhse what you want to run, 6.6 A123, or 7.2 or 8.4 nixx, and 7.4 lipo. This would allow the widest possible allotment of possibilities. My intent is to widen the sport not narrow it down. One thing I have not hit on is that the A123 cells can be used with a voltage enhancer to bring them to 7.4 volts the same as the lipo.

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So I'm not sure where the LiPo 8.4 vlt is coming from, or the suggestion of making 7-cell Nixx rule in order to make them be able to run with 2S LiPo’s packs? Perhaps you were thinking of the max voltage that Li-po reaches on the charger?, which would be 8.4 vlt (or 4.2 vlt per cell). NiMh’s reaches a much higher max voltage (over 9 vlt) on the charger when they reach their peak in that case as well. I apologize if I misunderstood your post.
It is comming from th efact that you did not read the post carefully. I say in the post that this is a 7 cell nixx pack. Pay attention.

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Anyways to the rest of the readers, there’s hardly a difference in 7.2 Nixx & 7.4 LiPo nominal voltages, because the current Nixx cells today (fresh cells in this case, lol) are way powerful and their nominal voltage seems to be anything but 1.2 vlt per cell, lol. (they deliver more power initially than the current crop of 2S-LiPo first few minutes of running on the track if you can believe that already! )
The voltage is not an important difference. It is the current delivery (amps) that make the huge difference. They (nicd or nimh) cannot deliver any where close to the current good lipos can. A lipo acts almost like a capacitor when delivering current. It will dump tremendous amounts of current. This is one thing that gives lipo and A123 such a advantage. The best nixx cells can give 40 amps peak. An average lipo can give 100 amps continuous. I have them that will run 300 amps. Also lipo and liion mah ratings are to a voltage of 3.0 volts. This means that a lipo or liion will run much faster and harder for hte full run time of the battery not slowing down like nixx packs.

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I personally like the LiPo technology, because I think they are the compromise we are looking for when it comes to off-road racing, especially when it comes to smoother power delivery during races and practice on slipper surfaces, rather than explosive power offered by the NiMh first few minutes. Hence the need for those NiMh’s users to consider the 5-cells route, because today’s 6-cells NiMh are considerably more powerful than those offered in the past. I only need to worry myself to adapt my car and driving with the performance characteristics of one "softer & smoother power delivery" Lipo pack for the rest of the day. Rather than adapt my driving/car to the varying performance characteristics of several "high voltage & hi punch" NiMh packs that I charge one after another in that case, lol.
I have never come across a nimh pack that will even come close to initial punch of a lipo. I havent even gone into the lower weight.

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I’m thinking of completing the 7.4 vlt (2S config) Li-Po route very soon in both my 2wd and 4wd off-road cars by selling off rest of my NiMh's packs, and once I do I I'm sure I won’t miss any of my Nixx packs. Gone are the day where I would drag at least 12 packs to the track, and the rest needed equipments. Just one or two LiPo pack, and one charger for the whole day is all you need.
I have been running nothing but lipo and liion for 7 years and I have been doing just what you say for that long.

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I say keep the current rule as it is, and allow others to run 6-5 cells NiMh as they please and the rest who decide to run LiPo, simply make a rule of 2S configuration of 7.4 nominal voltage just like those offered for our r/c cars by Orion/Peak 3200, 4800’s and MaxAmps, etc and so on. Even Rick Howart suggested keeping the rule as it is when it comes to racer’s choice of either running 6 or 5 cells in their car rather than mandating the 5 cells rule. It wouldn’t be in everyone’s best interest to make the current crop of 6-cells NiMh and 2S-LiPo 7.4 vlt packs obsolete out there, as that would create a lot of issues, confusion, and frustrations at tracks.
You have just made the point for the voltage classing that I speak of.
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Old 08-13-2007, 08:55 PM   #389
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My apologies for any misunderstanding I may have caused. I completely understand what you mean now in your earlier posts, however assure you that the rest of my post wasn’t directed towards you, but to the rest of the readers of the forum to clarify. All right, I’ll catch up on the rest of the readings tomorrow here, lol. Good discussion everyone.

Last edited by 4wd Racer; 08-14-2007 at 03:46 AM.
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Old 08-13-2007, 09:46 PM   #390
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That is not why this thread was started....
Frank,

I'm not sure what your home track is. How big of a track is your home track?

One of my concerns, is out here many of our electric tracks are fairly large. 100x200 for instance. A 5 cell stock motor on a track this size would probably drop the speeds to 4 lap races. Can we say boring for the novice driver. It's bad enought that Mod is lucky to get 7 to 8 laps in a race.

Now on my track, it's only 100x70, so a 5 cell stock would be ok, and I may even agree that it would be a great start for the novice class or for Stocks in general. ANd on our current layout 5 cell Mod would probably be successful to. But I don't like the idea of buying a new chassis. Heh We tend to get people who get to comfortable racing in Stock and are afraid to bump up to tougher classes. So in this way 5 cell may work well.

More importantly, if we're interested in saving money, why can't we bump Stock motors up to bearings instead of bushings??
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