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Old 08-10-2007, 10:48 AM   #331
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Originally Posted by tripthreat View Post
That is a good question.. but I am not really sure.

Think about it, a 6-cell pack can peak anywhere from 8.9v to 9.7ish. But, the pack that peaks at 8.9 will always run better, so... that puts a kink in things.
How about we force a voltage regulator on any battery - 5, 6, 7 cell or lipos? That way not only in the voltage guaranteed to level the field it also supports this great business plan I came up with. You know if EVERYONE needed one, sales would be brisk right?
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Old 08-10-2007, 11:04 AM   #332
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Don't mean to sound like a jerk, but instead of limiting cells/voltage, it seems to me like many need to learn throttle control and smooth/consistant driving. Instead of "lets limit the cells to 5 to slow me down" argument, why not learn not to yank on the trigger 100% to be the first in the first turn or at least not crash into the competition if your car is clearly faster than your competition. I learned throttle control when running 235 2wd nitro touring car about 5 yrs ago. I have translated that to all forms of driving and am becoming a more consistant driver. In short, I learned to slow myself down to become a better driver, not rely on rule changes to do so. Just my $0.02.
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Old 08-10-2007, 11:08 AM   #333
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Originally Posted by Brandon Rohde View Post
Any time you add more power, it will wear on equipment. Tires spin more (and on abrasive tracks that makes a big difference), outdrives wear quicker, etc etc. Just picture putting a Corvette engine in a For Taurus. The Taurus is a solid car, but over power it and the drivetrain won't last long.

Please don't take that as a rip, its not intended that way. Just trying to explain it a little bit. From personal experience, it does save on the car. It's not going to instantly save you tons of money, but over time it will a little bit. The difference is most noticeable if you are running brushed motors, but that will soon be a mute point I think.
No problem dude. I don't take much on here personal. Why don't people state that the excessive speeds cause quicker wear and tear on parts instead of making seem like if you slow the cars down, you will eliminate said wear and tear altogether. All moving parts will wear and fail and need to be replaced. It is just a matter of replacing them sooner than expect or later down the road.
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Old 08-10-2007, 11:21 AM   #334
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A perfect example of this was at the nationals this year in Albuquerque. In round 1 of qualifying, Dakotah Phend's time in stock truck would have put him 11th in modified truck. Dakotah drove a great race, but when stock motors are almost as fast as modified on a large outdoor track, then I think its a little too fast for a novice class.
Yes, this could be called the "Dakotah Problem". He put on such a show at the nats this year that I'm sure he won't be racing in the stock class next year and that's how it should be. One nice thing about offroad is that we don't have nearly as many sandbaggers as onroad.

I know this probably won't ever happen, but I've always thought the classes should be split up based on skill level and based on motors. There could be a beginner, intermediate, and expert class and beginners would be limited to 13.5's, but intermediate and expert could use whatever motors they want. If someone wins a big national race in beginner or intermediate, they would be forced to move up one class. My lap times aren't a whole lot better when I use a 7.5 compared to when I use a 13.5 so I'd be a perfect candidate for the intermediate class because I wouldn't be in the way of the top tier drivers, but I could still run the mod motor I use at the club level.

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The other reason that not much has been done to legalize a stock/19t brushless equivilant is that the technology hasn't matured yet. Brushless is certainly solid now, but new things such as sintered roters and more powerful speed controls keep coming out. If we legalize a 13.5 motor today, will it be equivalent to a 15 turn in 2 years?
Yes, the dust hasn't even settled and we racers are such an impatient bunch that we're already clamoring for rule changes. Let's hope this all gets sorted out in the next couple of years.

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I think the change is more important for stock. Stocks are too fast right now. True, you "CAN" run 5-cells in stock, it is an option, but who's going to? No one...they all want to go fast, and not for the sake of going fast, but to be competitive. If they JUST wanted to go fast, they'd be running mod. If everyone running stock was on 5 cells, and a 13.5 (ideal IMO), then they can all be competitive which is what stock guys desire right?

Then newbs could handle the power, be able to DRIVE their cars, and start off at a level of competition that won't leave them searching for a new hobby...
I think your thread wouldn't have gotten as much criticism if it had been solely aimed toward the stock class (beginner class). There are lots of mod guys, including me, who want to have as much power on tap as possible even if we can't always control it. It's a guy thing.

I think 5 cells + 13.5's would be a great idea, but that would still make some early lipo adopters unhappy. Nominal voltage aside, I'd be willing to bet that 5 cells + 13.5 would be very comparable to lipo + 13.5. Maybe once lipo gains more acceptance, we could grandfather it into the stock class (beginner class) if testing shows that lipo doesn't give an unfair advantage over the 5 cell guys. It wouldn't be the end of the world if nominal voltages weren't exactly the same in the beginner class, would it?
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Old 08-10-2007, 11:25 AM   #335
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I think the big argument is to slow the cars down to increase reliability and longevity and decrease cost, not so much that they are too fast to drive. One of the big issues that I don't think anyone mentioned is that with the increased voltage, speedos are failing more and more, and those aren't cheap. And as we have all seen, fans are a necessity now days, many times multiple fans. This is due to heat obviously, and heat is what kills motors, speedos, batteries, etc. If reliability and longevity were not an issue, I would put money on it that this thread would not be a concern of many people.
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Old 08-10-2007, 11:43 AM   #336
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Originally Posted by Brandon Rohde View Post
I think the big argument is to slow the cars down to increase reliability and longevity and decrease cost, not so much that they are too fast to drive. One of the big issues that I don't think anyone mentioned is that with the increased voltage, speedos are failing more and more, and those aren't cheap. And as we have all seen, fans are a necessity now days, many times multiple fans. This is due to heat obviously, and heat is what kills motors, speedos, batteries, etc. If reliability and longevity were not an issue, I would put money on it that this thread would not be a concern of many people.
I'm surprised reliability and longevity are thought of as a big issue in offroad. I've been using the same BL motor and speedo for the last year and I haven't had any problems. How are guys managing to blow up so many speedos? I can see where it would be a problem in onroad, but is it a really big deal in offroad? I don't go to many big races so I wouldn't know. All I know is that I haven't seen this problem at the track I race at.
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Old 08-10-2007, 11:51 AM   #337
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I'm surprised reliability and longevity are thought of as a big issue in offroad. I've been using the same BL motor and speedo for the last year and I haven't had any problems. How are guys managing to blow up so many speedos? I can see where it would be a problem in onroad, but is it a really big deal in offroad? I don't go to many big races so I wouldn't know. All I know is that I haven't seen this problem at the track I race at.
Racing at home I have never had any issues, but the last few big races... Cactus, Nationals, Hot Rod have been in Arizona, New Mexico, and Southern California respectively, so the temperatures are way higher. All three of those races saw days over 100 degrees F. I've been lucky so far not to have too many issues, but I also have a fan in each car and 2 in 4wd. Other people have not been so lucky, including many of the factory guys. Sometimes there is nothing you can do... it's just a luck thing. The equipment is always improving, and the new Novak stuff has been really solid, but even still I just don't think we should have to worry about melting down mid race and have to put fans all over the cars to cope with the high voltage. But that's just my own opinion...
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Old 08-10-2007, 11:52 AM   #338
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandon Rohde View Post
I think the big argument is to slow the cars down to increase reliability and longevity and decrease cost, not so much that they are too fast to drive. One of the big issues that I don't think anyone mentioned is that with the increased voltage, speedos are failing more and more, and those aren't cheap. And as we have all seen, fans are a necessity now days, many times multiple fans. This is due to heat obviously, and heat is what kills motors, speedos, batteries, etc. If reliability and longevity were not an issue, I would put money on it that this thread would not be a concern of many people.
***Temporary threadjack***
*Ahem* Can I just say another great reason to allow lipo? Consistent voltage can be an asset and never over 8.4...
***End threadjack***
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Old 08-10-2007, 11:53 AM   #339
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I'm not really sure how reducing a car to 5 cells would reduce costs. Do you honestly think the battery matchers are going to lower their price by $3 to $4 if they start making 5 cells instead of 6 cells? More likely, they'll just raise the price of 5 cells.

I know of only 1 battery manufacturer that doesn't penalize you for choosing 4 cell packs over 6 cell packs. (Pro-Match) The others, it's always penalize you for buying 4 cell packs.

The other item. Right now the cheapest batteries you can buy (and most beginners at our track buy these) are stick packs. By moving to 5 cells, we eliminate this type of pack from our beginners. They are a great pack for beginners, because they are less likely to short them out, they come pre-wired, and are generally cheaper to buy. How do you propose we keep it so that beginners can buy cheap nimh packs? For instance, many of our beginners goto Radio Shack, and buy 3800's in a stick pack for $30. I don't see 5 cell packs side by being sold for $30.

Paul
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Old 08-10-2007, 12:06 PM   #340
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I'm not really sure how reducing a car to 5 cells would reduce costs. Do you honestly think the battery matchers are going to lower their price by $3 to $4 if they start making 5 cells instead of 6 cells? More likely, they'll just raise the price of 5 cells.

I know of only 1 battery manufacturer that doesn't penalize you for choosing 4 cell packs over 6 cell packs. (Pro-Match) The others, it's always penalize you for buying 4 cell packs.

The other item. Right now the cheapest batteries you can buy (and most beginners at our track buy these) are stick packs. By moving to 5 cells, we eliminate this type of pack from our beginners. They are a great pack for beginners, because they are less likely to short them out, they come pre-wired, and are generally cheaper to buy. How do you propose we keep it so that beginners can buy cheap nimh packs? For instance, many of our beginners goto Radio Shack, and buy 3800's in a stick pack for $30. I don't see 5 cell packs side by being sold for $30.

Paul
The cost savings isn't in the battery packs, its in the equipment that you go through.

As for the stick packs, you do have a really good point. But if rules changes to 5 cell, they would start making 5 cell stick packs as well. There used to be 7 cell stick packs when 7 cells was used in racing. Now they are mostly 6 cell. If LiPo ever makes a 3 volt cell, that will eventually replace all the stick packs anyways I think. LiPo is the wave of the future, it will just take a while to take over. Same as was brushless a few years ago.

Anyways, I am not trying to push my ideas through to anyone or force any changes. As I said before, I love having options, but I also think there need to be rules set to everyone is on the same page and the costs stay down. The equipment we are all running, especially brushed motors, were designed back when the voltage was much lower. If they had this much voltage back then, I'm sure we would be running bigger motors to handle it.
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Old 08-10-2007, 12:07 PM   #341
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No problem dude. I don't take much on here personal. Why don't people state that the excessive speeds cause quicker wear and tear on parts instead of making seem like if you slow the cars down, you will eliminate said wear and tear altogether. All moving parts will wear and fail and need to be replaced. It is just a matter of replacing them sooner than expect or later down the road.
Because they are trying to sell everyone on the concept that it's a magic fix that will cause attendance to increase. Just like every other fix racing thread that gets started.
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Old 08-10-2007, 12:30 PM   #342
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Thanks for the info Brandon.

PS. www.liverc.com is frickin' awesome!!! If you guys ever come back to Enid RC Speedway to cover a race, drinks are on me.
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Old 08-10-2007, 12:30 PM   #343
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Because they are trying to sell everyone on the concept that it's a magic fix that will cause attendance to increase. Just like every other fix racing thread that gets started.
Who is "they"? For the most part, I think people are all giving valid viewpoints to try and come to some sort of agreement. No solution is perfect... there needs to be some middle ground and everyone will need to give and take a little.
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Old 08-10-2007, 12:31 PM   #344
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Why move to 5 cell? People are already disconnecting the 6th cell on certain conditions. This isn't sedan where people are frying electronics. If you feel the power is too much for you then step down to a slower motor.

Keep it simple.
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Old 08-10-2007, 12:33 PM   #345
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Thanks for the info Brandon.

PS. www.liverc.com is frickin' awesome!!! If you guys ever come back to Enid RC Speedway to cover a race, drinks are on me.
Thanks Leodis! You guys need to have a big race there this winter! To this day, that is still my favorite indoor track and I really want to go back there. There is a whole group of us from Wisconsin/Illinois/Minnesota that will make the hike if you guys put something together.
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