R/C Tech Forums

Go Back   R/C Tech Forums > General Forums > Electric Off-Road

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 08-07-2007, 01:54 PM   #166
Suspended
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 46
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed237 View Post
New guys don't leave because their stocker hung a brush or the a nimh took a dump on them. They leave because it takes about 2-3 years to be able to learn to set up and drive a car well enough to start getting some results. The learning curve is so high because the current motors and batteries, even stock, are putting out too much power.
This generalization just doesn't hold water. There's a 12 year old kid at my local track who started racing novice and moved up to stock after he won 3 races in a row. After he won 3 races in a row in stock, he moved up to mod. After only a couple months, he was putting the smackdown on guys who have been in the hobby for 20+ years. For every beginner who takes forever to improve, there are also beginners who are tomorrow's "fast guys".

Quote:
The 'fast guys' can extract even more speed from excess power compared to the 'slow guys' creating an even larger disparity. After 6 months, the slow guy is still 2-3 laps down stuck forever in sportsmans and decides he will never be able to compete and leaves the hobby.

Its not about which battery is the best, its about how to slow things down a little.
Maybe you're on to something here....Maybe the reason why some "fast guys" want to slow down the cars is because there's really only a handful of drivers good enough to win the big races. The rest of the sponsored and factory guys are just happy to make it in the A-Main with them. If they could slow down Cavalieri's car so he wouldn't be able to lay down as much power as possible, they might have a better chance at competing with guys like him. That's all speculation, but if that's the case, I say call the Waaambulance. These are also the same guys who are "too cool" to race with me in the C and D main if they have a bad weekend in qualifiers...
Matt Buggy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2007, 04:00 PM   #167
Tech Master
 
Ed237's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Dudley PA
Posts: 1,431
Trader Rating: 10 (100%+)
Default

The problem with your example is that you are citing ONE obviously extremely talented kid! I know first hand that kids like him are out there. But keeping him interested will not be a problem. He's already making the A main after 2 weeks or whatever. He will get some kind of deal out of and be racing for a long time.

Its how to keep the other 100 average club racers from quitting that I'm concerned about.

Just like the stock market now, we're overdue for a correction. Its happened before and will happen again. Everybody knows it. Its only a matter of how to go about doing it.

Let me ask the question - whats a better result;

1 Lapping the field with 4 of 10 finnishing the race and doing 25 laps in 6:05

2 Winning by .5 seconds with nearly everyone on on the same lap and doing 20 laps in 6:20

I'm for whatever format gets us scenario #2.
Ed237 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2007, 04:01 PM   #168
Tech Regular
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Massapequa, NY
Posts: 314
Default

Hey Frank,

I see that the bashing has been rough, but I agree with you a 100%!

I have been running 5 cells for over a year now and loving it.

Just out of curiousity... are you running a true five cell setup or a 6th dummy cell for weight etc...

Regards and great runs at the Hot Rod Shoot Out!

-Vin
Vin_Nocella is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2007, 04:05 PM   #169
Tech Addict
 
scott54's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 693
Trader Rating: 5 (100%+)
Default

I guess I should have read the whole thread before I posted. I didn't mean to offend anyone with my post and didn't mean for it to be looked at as bashing... my apologies. I didn't realize how tense the thread had become. (currently pulling foot out of mouth) Obviously, you can drive. My argument, without any inflection is that Lipo seems to be the way the hobby is going, especially on a convenience aspect. 5 cells may slow it down, but there are slower classes people can race if they feel the class they are in is too much to handle. I personally enjoy having way too much throttle. My opinion, didn't mean to ruffle any feathers.
__________________
TLR Racing - ARCS Speedway - B-Fast Racing - Dialed RC - G-Force
scott54 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2007, 04:05 PM   #170
Tech Legend
 
Cain's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: West Fargo, North Dakota
Posts: 29,555
Trader Rating: 240 (100%+)
Default

interesting thread.

After doing touring for awhile, and dabbling alittle in 1/8 scale but now with electric offroad again, I can say that the appeal of 1/8 scale to me at least was the raw power the vehicle makes, but was still controllable and could take a beating. But I hate the tuning part.

If the issue of cars going to fast is because they hit stuff at those high speeds and break, why not just build the cars so they are more durable and can take the abuse that the 1/8 scale guys are able to do?

Running stock with 6 cells in stadium truck can be a real snoozer, and is really hard on those motors too. I can't see going to 5 cell making that actually grow the class since it slows down the snoozer class even more.

At least its a thought, just don't think its the right way to go.

Less voodoo is the solution IMHO, and right now it appears with brushless and lipo, the average joe can get that. Does that mean in the future the factory guys will find a way, possible, but, it sure seems harder to do than right now with the current cells and motors we use.
__________________
Member - Red River Radio/Control Car Club
< Tekno EB48SL / SCT410.3 | Tekno EB410 x 2 | Yokomo YZ-2 DTM x 2 | LC Racing EMB-1 Buggies and Truggies >
Cain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2007, 04:11 PM   #171
TLRacing
 
Frank Root's Avatar
R/C Tech Elite Subscriber
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Corona, CA, USA
Posts: 5,438
Trader Rating: 25 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed237 View Post
The problem with your example is that you are citing ONE obviously extremely talented kid! I know first hand that kids like him are out there. But keeping him interested will not be a problem. He's already making the A main after 2 weeks or whatever. He will get some kind of deal out of and be racing for a long time.

Its how to keep the other 100 average club racers from quitting that I'm concerned about.

Just like the stock market now, we're overdue for a correction. Its happened before and will happen again. Everybody knows it. Its only a matter of how to go about doing it.

Let me ask the question - whats a better result;

1 Lapping the field with 4 of 10 finnishing the race and doing 25 laps in 6:05

2 Winning by .5 seconds with nearly everyone on on the same lap and doing 20 laps in 6:20

I'm for whatever format gets us scenario #2.
This is one of my main points, just better said.

I think can be accomplished by changing stock motors to maybe 11.5 and 29x1, or by 5 cells. I just think 5 cells can help all the classes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vin_Nocella View Post
Hey Frank,

I see that the bashing has been rough, but I agree with you a 100%!

I have been running 5 cells for over a year now and loving it.

Just out of curiousity... are you running a true five cell setup or a 6th dummy cell for weight etc...

Regards and great runs at the Hot Rod Shoot Out!

-Vin
I have recent started to run 5 cells a little more often. I have been testing mostly motor setups and have left the extra cell in for weight. I think that at the next high bite race, I will definately play around with only 5 cells in the car.

Thanks!

Quote:
Originally Posted by scott54 View Post
I guess I should have read the whole thread before I posted. I didn't mean to offend anyone with my post and didn't mean for it to be looked at as bashing... my apologies. I didn't realize how tense the thread had become. (currently pulling foot out of mouth) Obviously, you can drive. My argument, without any inflection is that Lipo seems to be the way the hobby is going, especially on a convenience aspect. 5 cells may slow it down, but there are slower classes people can race if they feel the class they are in is too much to handle. I personally enjoy having way too much throttle. My opinion, didn't mean to ruffle any feathers.
No worries.
__________________
Frank Root -- TLR Project Manager
Twitter - @FrankRoot FB - facebook.com/FrankRootTLR
Team Losi Racing (TLR) - Team Orion - Spektrum - JConcepts - Horizon Hobby - Stick It 1 - Sticky Kicks - Bradley's Fine Line Designs - liverc.com - OCRC Raceway - Tuning Haus - Pacific Coast Hobbies - RIP
Frank Root is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2007, 04:23 PM   #172
AE-Reedy
 
AEDUE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Milwaukee
Posts: 363
Send a message via AIM to AEDUE
Default

I really dont think that you guys are understanding the reasoning for making a 5 cell limit, so I am going to enlighten some of you. The soul reason to push for 5 cells is to make it easier on the electronics, not to slow the racing down. In fact I really dont think that going to 5 cells will really make any difference in speed. You will be able to run a lower wind motor and still do the same speed, but with less voltage, the motors wont burn up as fast and they will last much longer. Now on the other hand we could just tell everyone that there is a limit on the wind of motor that can be used. Unfortunately, with both brushless and brushed motors that is just not that easy. Also like others on here have said how do you tech that rule, can be somewhat tricky. Additionaly, there is still all of the voltage and amperage running through the speedo, still making for unreliability. Now this is where the battery option comes in. If you go to 5 cell packs, the amperage and voltage drops to a level that is back to managable for the speedos and motors, making electronics more reliable and racing more affordable for everyone. Also with there only being 5 cells in a pack batteries will be slightly cheaper, always a plus. Now most of you come on here with this lame response. Why would you go backwards in technology. What in the world are you talking about? How is that backwards? Running a 1400 pack would be going backwards, not changing the amount of cells. The rest of you that are pushing the Lipo cells, I think that is great. There are lots of positives to lipo batteries, but your still going to run into the same problem with motors and speedos blowing up in excessive heat and under heavy loads.
__________________
Team Associated - www.rc10.com | Reedy | LRP | Factory Team | JConcepts - www.JConcepts.net | Good Run Gear | Futaba - www.Hobbico.com | 92 Zero Designs - www.92ZeroDesigns.com | BFast Racing | Turd Ferguson Racing | RC Scoring Pro - www.RcScoringPro.com | Live RC - www.LiveRC.com | S&N's Trackside Hobbies - www.Trackside.com
AEDUE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2007, 04:27 PM   #173
Tech Initiate
 
Kinson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 41
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by scott54 View Post
... 5 cells may slow it down, but there are slower classes people can race if they feel the class they are in is too much to handle...


See my post above. NOVICE class
__________________
AE B4
AE T3
BJ4X4
Kinson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2007, 04:45 PM   #174
Tech Elite
 
badassrevo's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Roaming Shores, Ohio
Posts: 3,322
Trader Rating: 12 (100%+)
Default

Stock is not too fast! My 8 year old daughter started raceing this summer , she is terrible but has fun. Her first time on the track was with a Losi XXXT MF2 with a Novak GTB and a 13.5 powered by MaxAmps 6000 lipo. She has been able to race all summer and has had a blast and finished every race with out breakage. She has never won but she has always been in the middle of an 8 car Novice class. We currently run Novice, Open buggy and Open truck at our track with record turn outs for electric. The open classes are run what you brung any motor any battery. There is a mix of nimh, lipo, brushed and brushless. Everyone has fun and the competition is very good. We also run 10 min mains. There is very little difference between a "stock" class car and a "mod" car as far as lap times go. The open buggy class is usually won by a 13.5.
Let the new technology in. I say just open it up to everything and let the racers decide what is the future of off-road electric.
__________________
Doug Lightcap

ARCS Hobbies / Paint Monster Airbrushing / BFast / Tonys Screws
badassrevo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2007, 04:47 PM   #175
Tech Master
 
jkirkwood's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,232
Trader Rating: 8 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kuzo View Post
Holy crap! 2 people in the same thread actually agreed with me. Gotta bookmark this thread.
No, there is another. +4 and counting.
jkirkwood is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2007, 04:57 PM   #176
Tech Fanatic
 
RodneyB's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Columbus, OH
Posts: 902
Trader Rating: 7 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AEDUE View Post
I really dont think that you guys are understanding the reasoning for making a 5 cell limit, so I am going to enlighten some of you. The soul reason to push for 5 cells is to make it easier on the electronics, not to slow the racing down. In fact I really dont think that going to 5 cells will really make any difference in speed. ...
I am one that is not understanding. In reading through this, I come to the same conclusion that "easier on the electronics" is the reason that holds the most water. My follow up question would be, what is the extent of that problem, is it really one that is limiting growth of the hobby? I would suggest that "the electronics problem" is not an ESC or radio gear issue. I really haven't seen any evidence of that being an issue...in fact I would say that those electronics are fairly robust in most cases. So it comes down to motors IMO. So is motor wear a problem that is keeping people away from the hobby? I would say no, but if it is then it is reasonable to assume brushless is a better solution.

5 cell NiMh sounds like a great tuning option that should be embraced, but I just don't see reason to push it as "the answer".
RodneyB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2007, 05:01 PM   #177
Tech Adept
 
rccrazyindenver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 186
Trader Rating: 7 (100%+)
Default

Novice class...WOW that would be nice but to tell you the truth my local track has a hard time getting enough people to run a stock and mod class in 2wd, a stock truck class and a mod 4wd. Last Saturday night we had 10 stock buggies, 5 stock trucks, and 3 mod buggies....I up for anything that brings in more people weather it be brushless, LIPO or 5 cell. An eliminating stock, Please that is crazy it will just create a bigger gape and less people joining the hobby.

That is just my .02. This comes from someone that is only one year into the hobby.
__________________
MHOR Raceway
Losi XXX-CR
Losi XXX-T
rccrazyindenver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2007, 05:04 PM   #178
Tech Addict
 
mfishel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: the racing capital of the world
Posts: 551
Default

I'm going to agree with your view BADASSREVO, to a point. I like the idea of opening up the choices for racers. I also agree that the equipment these days is plenty reliable. I think my concern regarding so many options for power is that it may scare off new involvement.
If somebody comes in to my shop and watches some racing, they will see lots of racers running competitively. They can walk around the pits for a while and get an idea of what it will take to race these people pretty quickly, and come in to the ProShop with a fairly concise list (and a clear idea in their head) and then go home with their new toys feeling confident and optimistic. Then when they return, if they have some skills, they will get up to speed relatively soon.
Now if someone comes in and sees 10 guys running 10 different things, they may feel that there's a chance that the dollars they are about to spend will be for the wrong thing. The level of choice could be enough to keep them from getting involved in the first place. Kart racing has always suffered with this. Racers found new ways to go fast, and then it became a new class. Suddenly you had 10 classes with 5 racers in each. 5 classes with 10 racers each is much more appetizing to new racers.
mfishel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2007, 05:48 PM   #179
Tech Regular
 
SpeedyPenguin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Chandler, AZ
Posts: 310
Trader Rating: 1 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AEDUE View Post
The soul reason to push for 5 cells is to make it easier on the electronics,
Proper gearing and brushless systems mean anything?

In touring people are finding that to run 5 cell you gear up and go lower on motor, where does this leave you?

Back where you started
__________________
X-Factory, Hobby Action, Jconcepts, Stick it 1 Racing, B Fast
SpeedyPenguin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2007, 06:21 PM   #180
Tech Fanatic
 
Scrubb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 834
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AEDUE View Post
I really dont think that you guys are understanding the reasoning for making a 5 cell limit, so I am going to enlighten some of you. The soul reason to push for 5 cells is to make it easier on the electronics, not to slow the racing down. In fact I really dont think that going to 5 cells will really make any difference in speed. You will be able to run a lower wind motor and still do the same speed, but with less voltage, the motors wont burn up as fast and they will last much longer. Now on the other hand we could just tell everyone that there is a limit on the wind of motor that can be used. Unfortunately, with both brushless and brushed motors that is just not that easy. Also like others on here have said how do you tech that rule, can be somewhat tricky. Additionaly, there is still all of the voltage and amperage running through the speedo, still making for unreliability. Now this is where the battery option comes in. If you go to 5 cell packs, the amperage and voltage drops to a level that is back to managable for the speedos and motors, making electronics more reliable and racing more affordable for everyone. Also with there only being 5 cells in a pack batteries will be slightly cheaper, always a plus. Now most of you come on here with this lame response. Why would you go backwards in technology. What in the world are you talking about? How is that backwards? Running a 1400 pack would be going backwards, not changing the amount of cells. The rest of you that are pushing the Lipo cells, I think that is great. There are lots of positives to lipo batteries, but your still going to run into the same problem with motors and speedos blowing up in excessive heat and under heavy loads.
First, thank you for enlightening all of us

Going to 5 cells would only be a temporary solution to this problem of coarse. Electronic component specs will be lowered in speed controls. No manufacturer is going to use the same grade of components when lower grade ones are cheaper and do the job (i.e requiring less FET's that can handle less current). Motors designed to run on the ragged edge of 7.2 volts will be designed to run on the ragged edge of 6.0 volts. I agree that running equipment at 6 volts that is designed to run at maximum performance at 7.2 will make the equipment more reliable, but it will only last until the equipment is designed to run at maximum performance at 6 volts, and that wouldn't take long in todays industry.

BTW, checking the wind count on a brushless motor is pretty straight forward by checking the inductance in the windings. The manufacturer can provide the range each wind should fall within. Here is Novak on point....

http://www.teamnovak.com/Tech_info/m...ech/index.html
Scrubb is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
XRAY T2 2008 6 CELLS EU SPEC + TEAM ORION 3200 CARBON EDITION FOR SALE cyclone78 R/C Items: For Sale/Trade 14 09-05-2008 09:34 PM
Modified Racing in 2008 - 5 cells or 6? Swanny Australian Racing 155 07-27-2008 02:33 AM
ROAR: 8 cells in TC effective Feburary 30, 2008 RCSteve93 Electric On-Road 12 04-01-2007 09:13 PM
CYCLING BOARD FOR 30 CELLS AT A TIME BCOLEMAN R/C Items: For Sale/Trade 0 05-29-2005 09:25 AM



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -7. It is currently 04:43 AM.


We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
Powered By: vBulletin v3.9.2.1
Privacy Policy | Terms of Use | Advertise Content © 2001-2011 RCTech.net