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Old 09-25-2007, 12:30 PM   #151
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JEEZ...don't let George hear you say that!! The only thing I'd add is that it isn't just Stock, it's 19T-spec too. The "spec" thing is what's troubling. For Mod everybody (ROAR included) has accepted them.
george and I race at the same track, I know him quite well actually. I like george. he is helpful at the track and has helped me and my family quite a bit actually since our start in rc racing. I did tell george that if I didnt know him personally and he spoke to me on a forum the way I have seen him speak to some, I would have to knock him out at our first meeting.

as I do not race 19 turn/10.5 I cannot comment as to having an advantage. I ran 10.5 against 19 turn one time, on a very small track that I had only about 15 laps on before the race. the guy that won that race was running a brushed stock motor against all the 19 turn brushed and 10.5 guys. his home track and what not.

I run 13.5 in my buggy, and used to run it in my truck. I was going to an outdoor race and brushless was not going to be allowed in stock so I put a brushed motor in. the performance difference was so appauling to me that I bought a 7.5 brushless and raced mod at that race instead, for the first time ever running mod no less. lol so I firmly believe that brushless has a distinct advantage over brushed at the stock level. not that a better driver cannot beat me with brushed, they can.
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Old 09-25-2007, 12:44 PM   #152
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I'm sorry--please don't misunderstand. I had seen TRCR in your sig and know he still races there. I raced with George at TRCR 20 years ago and very much enjoyed his "unique" personality and enthusiasm, neither of which seems to have so much as dimmed. My memories of racing with George are all good, many tight dices and he was always the first one to find you with his hand out whether he beat you or you beat him. It was all about fun. Raced with Scotty, too, when he was a lad at his Dad's track in Lacey. Not surprising to see he's stayed with it. Many others as well.

Like you, though, were I to form my opinion of George strictly by what he posts on RC Tech it would be VERY different than that I hold.

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Old 09-25-2007, 01:34 PM   #153
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I think brushless and LiPo will make things easier but I don't believe for a minute anything will get "cheaper".
Believe what you want, but BL + Lipo has made racing noticably cheaper for me and many other racers. People who are sick of wallet racing (both nitro and electric) are flocking to BL + Lipo because of the cost savings and ease of use.

No matter how many people bring up this fact, there will always be people who say that once BL + Lipo becomes more accepted by racers, the cost savings will go down. Those same people often have ties to brushed motor companies and nickel battery companies. Go figure...

ROAR is currently working with BL companies to get the ball rolling on legalizing spec BL motors. I'm very happy with ROAR and the BL companies for taking the initiative. I wish the same could be said about lipo.
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Old 09-25-2007, 01:43 PM   #154
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I hope the hardcase li-po is left up to be a user choice rather than a rule!

I have no problem using soft packs for 4 years now!
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Old 09-25-2007, 03:33 PM   #155
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Believe what you want, but BL + Lipo has made racing noticably cheaper for me and many other racers. People who are sick of wallet racing (both nitro and electric) are flocking to BL + Lipo because of the cost savings and ease of use.

No matter how many people bring up this fact, there will always be people who say that once BL + Lipo becomes more accepted by racers, the cost savings will go down. Those same people often have ties to brushed motor companies and nickel battery companies. Go figure...

ROAR is currently working with BL companies to get the ball rolling on legalizing spec BL motors. I'm very happy with ROAR and the BL companies for taking the initiative. I wish the same could be said about lipo.
No attachment to motor or battery companies here--ownership, sponsorship, even knowing somebody who knows somebody. I've just been around the block a few times on this "cost savings" pony ride. I SHOULD add that I don't think it will cost any MORE either. It'll just be different, and probably easier to maintain. At least in the form we now know them in. Wait until the matcher's get involved...and the cell companies start to compete on performance specs. What we're looking for from batteries is generally different than what the flying crowd are looking for.

Like you I applaud ROAR for trying to make it all work--and they really are doing so. I look forward to a spec brushless motor and will heartily embrace them when they're here. As far as LiPos, I think they need to come to a decision that racers and the insurance carriers can all happily co-exist with, and my guess is that will be plastic-encased cells, which STILL have a substantial weight benefit over sub-C's so I just can't understand why some folks like the fellow above get their panties in a twist over them other than a prevailing "my way or no way" attitude. Flexibility is the key to getting ANY of this passed sooner rather than later, willingness to give a little on BOTH sides of the debate.
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Old 09-25-2007, 04:48 PM   #156
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The World's Fastest RC Car Challenge that RC Car Action Magazine puts on every year has all the electric powered cars including the record holder using soft pack li-pos in them just held in with velcro straps at speeds in excess of 100 to 125 mph with alot them hitting the concrete barrier along the track destroying the car with not one case of a li-po fire at this event in the 2 years they have held it. A true test of soft pack li-pos and should be a good example of how safe they really are.

Just go the the RCZone thread for the event and see all the pictures of these radical RCs with soft packs stacked up inside the cars. Here is alink to the threads: http://forums.radiocontrolzone.com/f...play.php?f=342

This is Nic Case's car that set the record the first year at 134 mph that was crashed and the batteries reused in another car that went unofficially 164 mph. Note the soft pack batteries in the car stacked up.


Another pic of this years 127 mph car complete with soft pack li-pos:
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Old 09-25-2007, 05:16 PM   #157
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I absolutely do not disagree with you...in principle. YOU are a data point of exactly ONE, statistically. The fellows doing the extreme speed thing are, what, another 15-20 (fill me in, I really don't know) data points racing on a surface that really wouldn't be damaged IF there was a fire or spill. When (and I DO say "when") LiPo get ROAR acceptance there will suddenly be thousands of data points running around, some with MUCH more of a clue regarding what they're doing/using than others who won't have a single clue. Not much different than the status quo, I'll admit.

To counter your example I have seen (several times) planes crash lightly enough that they you'd think only the propellor and MAYBE the nose cone would be damaged yet the LiPo had been puctured. Is this a problem in any real sense (other than potential loss of the model)? Not really, unless it starts a grass fire. MY concern is what happens to my club's carpet if there's a leak or a fire and I'm willing to accept whatever compromise (minimal, in this case) that might minimize that risk.

What I'm curious is WHY the hard case is such a thorn? Can you explain? I'm genuinely curious. All you've done thus far, here and elsewhere, that I've seen is attempt to demonstrate why they're not necessary but have never explained why they're a problem. My guess is if everyone were being honest is that it's a price thing. To this point the el-cheapo LiPos are substantially less expensive than those that are in cases. If ROAR mandates LiPos in cases, though, you can bet MaxAmps and several of the other will get 'em. I will be surprised if someone doesn't come out with a case that snaps open and closed around pretty much any cell within certain dimensions. Also, as everyone adopts cases the price of the cased batteries would fall--like the guys from SMC said, the cases themselves are insignificant cost-wise.

What I've seen, read, and heard discussed the hard case MAY very well be the fast(er) track toward getting acceptance via ROAR/insurance providers. Why allow an extreme bias against something so inconsequential as adding a case possibly slow the process down? It seems (to me) like cutting off the nose to spite the face. I know I, personally, would prefer that to be the direction even though it means I would have to buy different LiPos than I already own which would be VERY suited to in-car use uncased.
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Old 09-25-2007, 05:20 PM   #158
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...This is Nic Case's car that set the record the first year at 134 mph that was crashed and the batteries reused in another car that went unofficially 164 mph. Note the soft pack batteries in the car stacked up...
The car that went 134 mph never crashed, that was his 164 mph 2wd car that crashed after the first run (he got agressive on the breaks ), other wise that would have been the record.
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Old 09-25-2007, 05:31 PM   #159
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I am not against anybody using a hardcase! I hope I am very clear on that! I just don't want to be required to race with one by rules because I have no problems with the soft packs i have been using for over 4 years in now in off road racing. I simply think it should not be a rule and just be a racer preference.

Let me throw in a picture of my li-po brushless truck from the ROAR Off-Road Nats that was ran with most of the class entered using soft packs with no problems.


Let me also throw in here in the Carolinas there is over 50 racers on weekly basis using soft pack li-pos in electric classes at numerous tracks here that has built over a 4 year period racing in 10 to 25 minute mains with not one know case of a li-po fire or explosion in an electric car/truck. We have alot of data points with over 4 years of that I am now sharing with you!

Again the hardcase should be a racer choice and not a rule!
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Old 09-25-2007, 05:39 PM   #160
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The car that went 134 mph never crashed, that was his 164 mph 2wd car that crashed after the first run (he got agressive on the breaks ), other wise that would have been the record.
Not meaning to disagree, but I was there with him wrecking the official record holding car after the back up or 2nd run and the 164 mph car was crashed on the 164 mph run and was unable to back it up due to the damage. That was the only reason he did not get 164 mph as the record.

My gas powered junk whould not stick that slick track.
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Old 09-25-2007, 05:42 PM   #161
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I am not against anybody using a hardcase! I hope I am very clear on that! I just don't want to be required to race with one by rules because I have no problems with the soft packs i have been using for over 4 years in now in off road racing. I simply think it should not be a rule and just be a racer preference.
Craps, I know you probably won't listen to me because you're in full-on evangelist mode, but here goes:

Your T4 is perfect for soft lipos in that it completely shields the batt from 99.99% of all crashes that your truck can dish out. That's not the case with cf chassis cars. There have been reports of soft lipo fires this year indoors and you can't blame onroad guys for being sceptical about using soft lipos on paragon soaked carpet. If I ruled the world, I'd make hard case lipos legal for cf chassis cars and make all types of lipos legal for tub chassis cars with the batt running down the middle. If/when ROAR or its successor allows lipos, we all might have to make some compromises and this is coming from a guy who owns both soft and hard case lipos.
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Old 09-25-2007, 05:52 PM   #162
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Craps, I know you probably won't listen to me because you're in full-on evangelist mode, but here goes:

Your T4 is perfect for soft lipos in that it completely shields the batt from 99.99% of all crashes that your truck can dish out. That's not the case with cf chassis cars. There have been reports of soft lipo fires this year indoors and you can't blame onroad guys for being sceptical about using soft lipos on paragon soaked carpet. If I ruled the world, I'd make hard case lipos legal for cf chassis cars and make all types of lipos legal for tub chassis cars with the batt running down the middle. If/when ROAR or its successor allows lipos, we all might have to make some compromises and this is coming from a guy who owns both soft and hard case lipos.
The TC car guys can use hardcase li-pos, no problem from me on that because it would be they're choice and not a rule. I think you guys are making something out of nothing here. If you feel more secure using hardcase li-pos, by ALL means use one! I am not saying you can't or should not use one. I just don't want to use one and that is my preference because i see no danger in not using one with a hardcase!

Li-pos will warn you if there is problem by swelling first and the first part of the swelling you can not see with a case covering it up. I have already helped a racer with an Orion pack that was over discharged and did not know it was swelling till the case started to split. Needless to say I am not that impressed with the hardcase packs.

I want to also add that if you search around the forums you will find there is alot of racers nationwide converting 1/8th scale buggies to electric and hanging velcro attached li-po soft packs on them. I had one over 3 years ago that I swelled up alot of batteries from over discharging them, but not 1 fire or explosion.
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Old 09-25-2007, 06:00 PM   #163
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I am not against anybody using a hardcase! I hope I am very clear on that! I just don't want to be required to race with one by rules because I have no problems with the soft packs i have been using for over 4 years in now in off road racing. I simply think it should not be a rule and just be a racer preference.
Well....not very clear but I don't take offense anymore. I think you need to watch how you describe the mentality of those who prefer cases though personally.

If ROAR leaned towards a hardcase requirement for lipos, would you support it in an effort to speed things up or fight against it? According to Danny at SMC it will add very little to the total cost. Do you think Maxamps would balk at doing it? I think they'd be all over it myself as they would likely be the lowest prices legal packs around...
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Old 09-25-2007, 06:08 PM   #164
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Well....not very clear but I don't take offense anymore. I think you need to watch how you describe the mentality of those who prefer cases though personally.

If ROAR leaned towards a hardcase requirement for lipos, would you support it in an effort to speed things up or fight against it? According to Danny at SMC it will add very little to the total cost. Do you think Maxamps would balk at doing it? I think they'd be all over it myself as they would likely be the lowest prices legal packs around...
I don't think I have insulted anybody's mentality here and if I did I am sorry.

Danny at SMC also said li-pos should not be used competitively too and that I totally disagree with and do not intent on buying any SMC products for him making that statement.

I don't really think MaxAmps cares about ROAR because they sell so many soft pack li-po batteries to racers that race at non-ROAR membership tracks. Same path brushless motors took and now they are ROAR legal.
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Old 09-25-2007, 06:15 PM   #165
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Let me add you can make and I have made 3 years ago a hardcase for a li-po out of plastic ceiling grid wall track that can be bought at most home improvement stores. You can trim it and duct tape it together. Been there done that back in the early days of li-pos with me.
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