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Old 09-24-2007, 08:46 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by AndyH5212 View Post
I hope I dont get flamed too badly, but maybe it is time for a new sanctioning body for electric racers.
Not a flame...but when are you going to start working on it? What will your new sanctioning body be called?

No matter what sanctioning body in what sport does (or doesn't do) what they are damned by some faction of their membership. Using NASCAR as an example, they've outright said that if racers aren't complaining they're not doing their job.

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ROAR must re-prioritize, or die. ROAR does not do a darn thing while tracks all over the U.S. are closing daily.
Where in ROAR's charter does it say they take responsibility for keeping tracks open? Just curious. Again, to use a NASCAR analogy, they don't take responsibility to keep any racing facility (or provider business, or...) open other than the ones they own under Speedway Mgt. Inc. Tracks fail because racers fail to support them, mismanagement, or some combination of these or similar/related ailments. The sanctioning body's job is to provide a stable set of rules that everybody can run by and provide new product testing, etc to fit them within the rules.

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Why not organize ROAR (or whatever organization) into something like motocross has and have a national point system, maybe 10 races in different regions of the U.S, and at the end of the year, hold a major event in Vegas to crown the overall points leaders. They could publicise the crap out of these races, and maybe get TV coverage on Spike or some other cable network. Some things gotta give to get new blood into this hobby to show how extreme it can be, seems like all the sports are "extreme" these days, and thats where all the young people are at.
There are some BIG motorsports out there with some BIG money behind them that can't get consistent television coverage. ARCA/ReMax, any of the regional NASCAR tours, CART/Champcar (getting a LITTLE better), etc. It doesn't matter if you have the coolest thing going, if you can't sell advertising you don't get TV coverage. Hell...for several years now CART/Champcar had to PAY for airtime to get coverage. The only reason IRL didn't was they tied Indy coverage to covering the rest of the series.

We are in a nitche hobby...fringe at best. The companies involved are typically VERY small by any standards and the VERY few that are $million plus aren't going to pay that much to advertise on the telecast on top of sending teams to these events, etc.

Finally, keep in mind that we "racers" are also a small part of the total RC car/truck market. And that "racers" are in CONSTANT turnover for numerous reasons. A very very small percentage of "racers" have been racing longer than 5 years. A microscopic percentage has been racing longer than 10. The money to be made is in the backyard basher market. Sell 'em as many RTR's and upgrades as they'll buy in the 1-6 months they'll stay with the hobby.

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Originally Posted by Jake S View Post
i see roar had a 13.5 truck race, at some upcoming event i saw in a recent magazine....but roar needs to let the 13.5 truck and buggy classes take over the 27turn classes.....stock is suppose to be for novice racers, brushless is aimed towards them.
"Stock" is NOT an ability level, it is a VERY competitive racing class. If we want a class for "novice racers" (which I think would do more to grow racing than ANY technology change) we need to look at SLOWING CARS DOWN for them. To a point made above, yeah every person seeing them for the first time asks how fast they are and if they can be made faster. Then they buy all the gear and go out only to bash the car back toward kit form heat after heat after heat. They have minimal chance to improve because "stock" cars today are as fast or faster than "mod" cars were 20 years ago when I started.

You have GOT to believe that if ROAR could make brushless work for spec classes they'd do it tomorrow. The problem is there's no "spec". Novak are on their THIRD 13.5/rotor combination in a year. There's so much magic the mfr's are already exploring it would make your head spin...and they've only scratched the surface. The only way I see brushless working in spec classes is that ROAR will have to solicit bids from the mfr to offer a "spec" motor for 2 years. ROAR have long abhorred creating single-mfr specs, but I think the time has come. Novak/LRP/Castle/et al will never arrive at a "spec" that will hold for any period of time.

Also, don't kid yourself that either brushless or lipo will save ANY money over the long term. Brushless MAY prove to make racing "easier", but you're going to have a box full of $30 rotors instead of $30 motors. And battery matching/hi-grading in LiPos is already going on. Yes there is smaller (or seems to be...of course they're already being reformulated with each batch that come out) variance, but that means that hi-graded cells are worth even more difference than hi-graded NiMH cells.

Do I think brushless/lipo are the future? Absolutely. Do I think they're ready to roll out tomorrow (or even this year)? Nope.

I would guess that we won't see a "spec" brushless class for at least another year, and I'll further guess that it will have to be a one-mfr class (much how 13.5 racing is being done at larger events now). I'll guess we're at least 2 years from having a LiPo class nationally.

Near and dear to my own heart is the effect on 1/12 racing. The LiPos force big voltage jumps since each cell provides roughly the voltage of three sub-C's. The change from 6-cell sub-C to 2-cell LiPo will be fairly seamless when made as there's very little difference in nominal voltage. For 4-cell NiMH racing, though, you have to look at going 1-cell lipo (23% less nominal voltage) or 2-cell lipo (54% more nominal voltage). I'd lean toward the 1-cell, but the weight difference really screws the cars up, and adding the weight back slows 'em down. The 2-cell is just screwy fast. No one will ever learn to drive 'em if they're just starting out. There's a reason 6-cell 1/12 died a LONG time ago...too damn fast for their own good.

We're at a major crossroad in RC racing and I can see the sword of Damocles poised above our collective heads. ROAR is doing everything they can to incorporate new technology AND be fair to everybody. Is it "fair" to require everybody who is invested in equipment for brushed motors or charging/maintaining sub-C's to scrap that investment? Is it fair to require newer folks to buy the older tech that may be obsolete soon? Guess what, little in life is fair. Either way there is a large segment of the racing population that gets hurt. How do you decide which it will be?

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Old 09-24-2007, 12:22 PM   #137
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ah, somebody else who understands the situation the racing aspect of the hobby is in....
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Old 09-24-2007, 01:24 PM   #138
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ROAR is killing the hobby IMO and preventing it from becoming a legitimate sport. It's very obvious there's a petty power struggle going on and the current officials, as well intentioned as they might be, don't have the skills necessary to bring this "hobby" to the Sport level with serious TV time and real sponsorship from non-RC companies.
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Old 09-24-2007, 02:34 PM   #139
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I think ROAR could be doing somethings better especially when it comes to communication. But I doubt they have $100,000 lying around to spend on a P.R. Ad campaign to make some people 'feel' better about racing their RC cars.

If you havent read it already, check out this LIPO thread

http://www.rctech.net/forum/showthread.php?t=182012

SMC has decided to get into the LIPO market and got thoroughly thrashed. A lot of it is technical some of its informative, but by the end, I couldnt figure out what they are fighting about.

Its especially frustrating since we were told to start buying and using the LIPOS to save the hobby because they are 100% safe and last longer (almost forever), only to find out, that theres no way to prove the cells are safe and that as the manufacturers start attempting to find more performance the cells will become more volitile and have shorter life spans.

Read the thread and then pretend your ROAR and have to figure out what the 'right' answer is?
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Old 09-24-2007, 02:45 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by satoch View Post
ROAR is killing the hobby IMO and preventing it from becoming a legitimate sport. It's very obvious there's a petty power struggle going on and the current officials, as well intentioned as they might be, don't have the skills necessary to bring this "hobby" to the Sport level with serious TV time and real sponsorship from non-RC companies.
Example please. Exactly what is it ROAR is doing that is "killing" anything?

What is your alternative to provide national sanctioning and rules package? The guys like Scotty Ernst have said before they have NO interest in creating an alternative to ROAR. Why? Because no matter what you may or may not disagree with, as a whole they do just fine trying to regulate a HOBBY. And that's all this is. Scotty is delighted to use the ROAR rules as the guideline for what are, arguably, the most successful RC events in the US. He makes small deviations from the rules, but his events are 99%+ ROAR rules.

ANY organization, ANY of them, that tries to be all things to all people will not satisfy what EVERYBODY thinks things should be. Not a one of them, unless you have an example you'd care to share...that ONE organization (that I don't believe exists) where everybody who belongs is entirely delighted with how things are going, etc. Heck, the Catholic Church is a "sanctioning body" for religion for a sizeable percentage of the world's population and has, oh, a millennia and a half experience. Do you imagine that even half of the population they serve don't have at least one sizeable difference of opinion regarding Dogma, procedure, etc? You bet they do. They will NEVER get 100% (or probably even 75%) agreement on everything. Why would you expect a comparatively tiny, nascent group like ROAR to do better?

And like most groups, ROAR has nothing but armchair generals lobbing grenades into their compound "they're incompetent...can't be trusted...yadda yadda yadda...the only answer is to throw 'em out and replace 'em.". Everybody wants to be a critic, NOBODY wants to take responsibility to help fix it. Fer cryin' out loud, if you think you've got 125 people that agree with you YOU COULD HAVE BEEN ROAR PRESIDENT since nobody even cares enough to vote. 5,000 people are first in line to bitch about everything they do, fewer than 300 even did the most simple of things to help "fix" things (vote).

It's WAY beyond easy to complain and say they should be replaced. Let's hear your alternative. What will this organization do differently? Who's going to create it and get it off the ground?

We're listening, ye saviors of RC Racing. School us.
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Old 09-24-2007, 02:55 PM   #141
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Just to follow up - for every 1 racer at our track that still attends most of the races there are probably about 10 who have tried it and left.

Not one of them blamed ROAR or NiMh batteries!
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Old 09-24-2007, 03:00 PM   #142
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maybe this is a bit random, but would roar accept LIPO if someone made sub c LIPO cells? because i read up on them, and unlike LI-ION lipo can be moulded into any shape, including cylindrical. although it would lower the energy density (think lego all clipped together verses a pack of BB's) it would be more familiar to technophobes etc.
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Old 09-24-2007, 07:30 PM   #143
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Lipo is 3.7 v per cell so that would be a 22.2 v battery, I'm all for that.
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Old 09-24-2007, 08:26 PM   #144
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guys, here's how it works. when nobody shows up to race or bother paying to be a member because they're running lipo and not allowed to compete, roar will have to turn around. otherwise, no funds = no organisation. no organisation means nobody is able to compete on roughly the same level which translates to manufacturers reduced sales because customers dont know what to buy. as long as you guys stick with 2s and keep the races between 5 and 7 mins for the first year, people will learn the benefit and the powers that be will have to conform to maintain that power. so basically since ernie isn't a complete fool, he'll wait until novak tweaks the motors to be comparable with stock, and then for the 12th scales their reduced winds motor.. once they get it close some rules will be made so they know what to make. ergo novak foots the large part of the r&d.

but hey, we allow brushless and lipo here on the off-road and oval. every combonation has won on the track. imma get back to racing now. see ya on the drivers stand.
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Old 09-24-2007, 08:33 PM   #145
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Uh...ROAR doesn't prevent ANY track or club from putting together whatever class their little hearts desire. We're a ROAR club and have created a 4-cell TC class that with stock motors will be PERFECT for beginning drivers and with 19-T are a HOOT for experienced racers. We've got over a dozen cars built within our little group here in Podunkville--everyone who's driven them loves them.
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Old 09-25-2007, 01:21 AM   #146
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Maybe ROAR needs to start off with something new to grow all by itself and since they are looking for a place to put 1/10th scale gas truck class, the perfect solution maybe to have a Nats with the 1/10th Gas Truck along with new classes that are open motor and open battery with 4wd buggy, 2wd buggy and 2wd Truck with 20 to 30 minute mains and 10 minute qualifiers. Since it is off-road let it be any motor including brushed or brushless, sensored or sensorless and any battery from 5 or 6 or even 7 cell nickle batteries, 2 or 3 cell li-po with any mah capacity. Off-road is 80% driver anyway and you can very easy over power one, so why not let it be racer choice.

There would still be the same rules on width and weight on the trucks and buggies. Basically just open motor and battery rules.

This is just a suggestion, so go easy on me and maybe contribute to modifying this format in a positive way!

PS. 4wd buggy may have trouble with a main length over 10 minutes, but open for some suggestions. 5500 mah li-po saddle pack is the biggest I know of to handle that kind of runtime along with thermalling issues due to no room under the body for air to cool anything off. I have no experience with the buggies and could use some other opinions on this.
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Old 09-25-2007, 10:55 AM   #147
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OK, here goes. First, it's obvious that no one knows more than Scottrik according to him. I am not a savior of RC, never will be. I am the guy who supports racing by spending lots of money on it. ROAR needs to get their cranial-rectal inversion fixed and allow LIPO and brushless if they want membership to grow. For 20 years, (thats right Scottrik, 20 years) I have been spending money on this hobby. I believe (and obvioulsy so do many others) that LIPO and brushless will entice more people to join the hobby.

I have said it before, all kinds of people are interested in this hobby until they see the giant price tag. I see LIPO and brushless minimizing that sticker shock. But, unfortunately it seems as though some people (read into that what you will) are not interested in the racer so much as helping the battery market. It's sad really.

That is why I appreciate the local tracks and track officials who have the brains to realize that LIPO is the future. They realized that they will make more money by allowing people to race at their tracks using them. Of course they could say no, and watch more than half of the race entries (and their profits, too) go down the drain.

Scottrik, you took the "if you come forward with a problem, you better have a solution" stance to my remarks (and those of some others). I have the solution- legalize LIPO and brushless and make the majority happy. Or, wither away and die. I could care less either way. I have plenty of local tracks that allow new school technology to be used. But what would I know, Ive only been into this for 20 years.....
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Old 09-25-2007, 11:49 AM   #148
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I never pretend to know more than ANYBODY, much less everybody. I'm just willing to accept the fact that there are TWO SIDES to this and pretty much every issue and am able to appreciate the arguments of both sides and the challenge ROAR faces trying to create a solution.

Your "solution", to incorporate brushless and lipo, is exactly what ROAR is trying (very hard) to do. It is not, no matter how you wrap it, as simple as saying "IT IS SO" and maintain any sense of fairness.

The "racers" clamouring for LiPo inclusion are by no means a "majority"...they are a very VERY vocal minority still but a minority that is growing every day. That said, the writing is clearly on the wall that the future will be LiPo and brushless motors. The challenge, whether YOU PERSONALLY are affected or not, is to incorporate them in a manner that is as fair as possible to as many individual racers.

Keep in mind that non-ROAR big races like IIC, Cleveland, etc have not adopted lipo and brushless on a wholesale basis either yet nobody is yelling at the wall that Scotty Ernst is holding racing back. He could run whatever the heck he wanted to...and doesn't. Why? Because he sees the challenges associated with the change. And his races sell out in a day or two. Hmmm, go figure.

Not insurmountable challenges...just challenges that will require more thought to implement than what the folks yelling the loudest for inclusion have given the matter.

The cost-savings is a myth. It will cost pretty much exactly the same to race at a competitive level. Just like the argument of needing new NiMH batteries every (I've heard) 1-3 months to remain competitive. I raced a large "regional" event in August with the exact same batteries I bought in October last year. Horsepower was NOT a problem...in fact in the A3 I was running right behind the two cars that were in top positions to that point (and, ultimately, placed 2-3 in the event) and had to back out of the throttle on the straight to keep from running them down. That with my tired old batteries and similarly aged KD. The batteries were used/maintained EXACTLY as recommended by the matcher (6amps charge to .2mv peak, 500 sec charge when putting them away) and have proven to be fine. I HAVE found that I have to do more maintenance charging than I'd prefer due to the self-discharge characteristics. Then again, IB responded to the demands of the market and created a F-1 ferrari engine of a battery for us in terms of voltage, IR, and power available...is it any wonder they require more maintenance than a Honda Accord?

You are very much an example of "old" racers embracing new tech--there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. I've been running brushless in 1/12 mod for 2 years now which technically makes me an early adopter as well. I sit here at my desk surrounded by LiPo batteries and a couple chargers for them that I use in my planes and helicopter. There is no technophobia here. I look forward to ROAR finding a means to EQUITABLY move racing to LiPo batteries (which I think is really the easier of the two challenges) and to find a means to create meaningful brushless "spec" class(es). Believe you me, when they figure it out I'll be one of the first to jump on that bandwagon!

You've been around long enough (exactly as long as me it sounds like) to have seen these changes before. Every single one of them was going to revolutionize RC, make it cheaper and easier to race, and guess what...none of those promises came to pass, at least not in full. I think brushless and LiPo will make things easier but I don't believe for a minute anything will get "cheaper". Heck, batteries and motors are a LOT cheaper in relative terms compared to 15-20 years ago. I bought matched 4-cell 4200 packs last fall for $42/pack that were so close to the highest numbers I'd ever heard of on them it was amazing. I paid $50-60 for matched packs in 1990 that weren't as "close" as they are now. And that is 1990 dollars...in "real" terms I'm spending half as much, and with the battery maintenance devices available now they are lasting longer too.
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Old 09-25-2007, 12:03 PM   #149
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I dont really want to enter this debate, other than ask this one question.

isnt the real issue with roar rules more about brushless motors than lipo batteries? I mean, lipo batteries offer no real advantage, other than run time, as I see it. the car will be lighter, but you should add weight to make it legal. longer run times are nice, but a 5 minute race is a 5 minute race, regardless of power supply.

I will concede, confirm, whatever, that brushless motors have a distinct advantage over brushed... in stock racing only... but I dont see what all the hulabaloo is over lipo.
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Old 09-25-2007, 12:24 PM   #150
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isnt the real issue with roar rules more about brushless motors than lipo batteries? I mean, lipo batteries offer no real advantage, other than run time, as I see it. the car will be lighter, but you should add weight to make it legal. longer run times are nice, but a 5 minute race is a 5 minute race, regardless of power supply.
I agree that from a "fairness" standpoint LiPo is a no-brainer...in 6-cell classes. 4-cell (or upcoming reduced cell TC formats) have a problem to overcome due to the 3X voltage per LiPo cell not allowing as "fine" of voltage adjustments.

Right now it's a safety debate, and on relative safety opinions are like bellybuttons.

NO battery is safe if mistreated. Period.

I've seen a NiMH cell explode and it was impressive. I wouldn't have wanted it on the bench next to me. Then again it gave a LOT of warning before it blew so it was knocked onto the floor and everybody stepped back. It had been accidentally overcharged.

I have personally had NiMH cells short out in my battery box twice. They vented and created all kinds of heat but the Racers Edge case (one) and the cardboard CRC box holding paperboard SMC boxes (two) showed no sign of trying to combust.

When LiPos go they create open flame. Intense open flame. This can be easily dealt with by charging, etc in a flameproof container. Problem: how do we mandate this...there has never been a rule regarding pit equipment required/not allowed before. Is it really necessary when there are scads of people present?

LiPos are also unprotected in "raw" form. Everybody points to airplanes and 'copters having used them for a few years now, but when a helicopter or plane crashes it's a major event. RC cars crash all the time...the level of abuse is far higher and much more regular. What rules bodies face here is that "crashing" is a foreseeably regular occurance as liability lawyers like to see things.

We are seeing LiPos that come in cases that mimic the bottom of sub-C packs and I think this will be the ticket to LiPo acceptance by sanctioning bodies. I was VERY disappointed SMC chose to introduce their new LiPo without a case but I think they're remedying that.


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I will concede, confirm, whatever, that brushless motors have a distinct advantage over brushed... in stock racing only...
JEEZ...don't let George hear you say that!! The only thing I'd add is that it isn't just Stock, it's 19T-spec too. The "spec" thing is what's troubling. For Mod everybody (ROAR included) has accepted them.
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