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Old 02-02-2007, 05:01 PM   #1
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Default 1/8 Carbon Fiber main chassis

I was wondering why none of the 1/8 cars use a carbon fiber main chassis? Is it for any particular reason? any inpuy would be greatly appreciated.
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Old 02-02-2007, 05:44 PM   #2
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I seem to recall this having been tried back in the late 80s, but nothing seemed to come of it. It would definitely offer a weight advantage, but I'm unsure if this would be offset by undesireable handling characteristics, and perhaps also heat from the engine.

Then again, Vantage can make carbon-fiber pipes that withstand exhaust heat rather well, so that may not even be an issue... I even wrote to them last year suggesting a carbon chassis for the 8ight; possibly with a couple layers of Kevlar on the underside to minimize scratches and gouging.
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Old 02-02-2007, 06:03 PM   #3
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Not sure how well a carbon fiber chassis would take the almost direct heat of the engine where the motor mounts are attached. If it started to char or delaminate, you'd be screwed. A tuned pipe does not experience the same temps as whats in the combustion chamber, so using carbon fiber is entirely doable, and is being done, as stated. Also, the aluminum chassis we use now act as additional heatsinking for the engine. A carbon fiber chassis would probably result in the need for a ginormous heatsink head on the engine to keep temps under control. I think its been done before with 1/10th gas trucks, but you're only dealing with a .12 engine.
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Old 02-02-2007, 06:14 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stealth_RT
A tuned pipe does not experience the same temps as whats in the combustion chamber
And a chassis does?

I want what your smoking, because that must be some good stuff. WTF do you think the exhaust gases from the combustion chamber exit from? A TUNED PIPE


I don't think you own any gas powered vehicles, because everyone who does, knows that the pipe is always hotter than the bottom of the chassis where the motor sits.

You won't see carbon fiber chassis because they will break. Aluminum bends and returns to its original form, carbon fiber does not. 1/10 gas trucks will work because they don't have the power of take the abuse that 1/8 scales do.
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Old 02-02-2007, 06:28 PM   #5
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Actually, you can alter the flexural modulus of carbon, depending on the weave, and the way it's laminated, which you cannot do with metals. Just look at the suspension anchor points of modern F1 cars: there is no mechanical linkage at all, just straight carbon fiber which tapers to a slimmer point right before it meets the chassis. That "slim" point is where the suspension flexes to give suspension travel.

From all the issues of Auto RCM I read back as a teen, I never once heard anyone mention "breakage" with regards to the carbon chassis plates, and you're talking about the laminate technology of 15-20 years ago. The carbon fiber you can get now is even stronger than steel.
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Old 02-02-2007, 06:38 PM   #6
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Uh, an F1 suspension simply bends at the point that it meets the tub? OOOOOOKKKKKKK.
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Old 02-02-2007, 06:45 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mfishel
Uh, an F1 suspension simply bends at the point that it meets the tub? OOOOOOKKKKKKK.
Yes.

it's actually been in use that way since 2000, or '01... Maybe sooner, but that's around the time when I saw it. It kinda creeped me out too, when I first saw that, so I brought it up with one of the engineers at Wiliams, and he assured me that it was both safe and very effective.
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Old 02-02-2007, 07:04 PM   #8
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I hate to be a doubting tomas, but I'm going to see if I can find some photos.
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Old 02-02-2007, 08:13 PM   #10
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I am not sure, but I think what it is is still a kind of joint. They used to use a 'rose' joint, a kind of ball and socket joint. Now they use a flat joint of some kind but still in a captive socket. Maybe imagine a kind of hinge pin. But the pin is attached to a plate and inserted into a slot in another plate mounted on the tub of the car. I guess more like a door hinge.
This is the time of year that the new cars are being released. Autosport is a great British magazine that has really good technical illustrations of F1 cars. I'm going to peruse my back issues and see if I can find a good drawing of a suspension pick up point.
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Old 02-02-2007, 08:45 PM   #11
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F-1 uses a "flexure" setup where the arm effectively is a spring and flexes rather than the arm pivoting like independent suspensions do compressing the shocks. The reason why flexures have been adopted is because F-1 cars are under such LARGE lateral loads in turns that the pivot points within the suspension binds up and flexes/distorts a healthy amount. You can try to improve the suspension joints, which I'm sure the teams tried to for years and were at their wits end to improve upon it any further, so the next logical step is to "eliminate" the problem....hence the flexures. If you've ever experienced a bent hinge pin or bound up suspension in some way on your r/c car causing havoc on it's handling on the track...then that is what is happening to some degree to the F-1 cars with a "standard" independent pivot suspension but their car doesn't have bent hinge pins......they are just exceeeding the limits of conventional design and evolved into something new/different that works better for them.
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Old 02-02-2007, 08:47 PM   #12
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O.S Power- actually Aluminum bends and stays bent, where as Carbon will flex and return to its molded state.

I was wondering if it had something to do with the oil in the fuel, maybe?

The heat from the motor is not a problem, as stated the hottest part of the motor is the head & exhaust.

I am just looking for other peoples thoughts on this, as everybody see's things different.

Thanks and I hope more comments come.
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Old 02-02-2007, 09:04 PM   #13
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WOW. I guess I haven't been paying attention to F1 design evolution as closely in the last few years as I used to. If anybody comes to Indy for the USGP this year please come to see us. You can find us at http://www.planetrcraceway.com/
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Old 02-02-2007, 09:04 PM   #14
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Don't know if this fits the arguments going on here, but there is a carbon fiber 1/8 chassis being used, sorta.

A guy in Germany makes aftermarket CF chassis for use in BL conversions of 1/8 buggies. He uses the stock aluminum chassis from the steering rack forward to make use of the front rake... and the rest of the chassis is cut from CF.

It's like a B3 chassis in reverse.
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Old 02-02-2007, 09:44 PM   #15
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Engine heat and fuel are non issues. Losi Lst2's have been using carbon fiber main chassis plates for awhile now. I had them in my lst2 with no issues at all. When I finally parted the truck out, there were no marks or discoloration due to heat or fuel.

I would think that the durability of CF and that it has a tendancy to delaminate with hard contact. I have seen pan car chassis destroyed in stock class. Imagine the abuse it would take in a 8-10 lb buggy going 45 mph.
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