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Old 09-18-2006, 03:34 PM   #31
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Yes because every time company needs to build a completely unique buggy with their own unique parts on it, NO borrowing! It really doesn't look anything like a BJ4WE though, not any more similar than a B4 vs. a XXXCR. most all RC's look similar to something else, get over it.
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Old 09-18-2006, 04:19 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tripthreat
wow, that doesn't look anything like a J-Concepts buggy

You do realise that is the sort of thing my wife would say don't you ? She would say that about the Tamiya Frog too. Heck she can't tell any buggys apart.

It is available as a conversion for the BJ4x4we, and eventually as a full kit so I hear. If you SERIOUSLY think it looks like a JConcepts buggy then good luck to yah.
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Old 09-18-2006, 08:14 PM   #33
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I like it, looks like it has parts from a xx-4 and bj4 with a completely new chassis. That chassis is molded carbon fiber? I think that is a first for rc.

Thanks for posting that, it is always cool to see what Doughty is running.
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Old 09-18-2006, 09:41 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oople
It is available as a conversion for the BJ4x4we, and eventually as a full kit so I hear. If you SERIOUSLY think it looks like a JConcepts buggy then good luck to yah.
Now, that is going to be an expensive electric 4wd! They couldn't of picked a more expensive buggy to begin with. And given the wait time you have to go through for a Jconcepts car it will take forever to get the entire car.
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Old 09-18-2006, 09:43 PM   #35
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Rocket42, Comparing a top of the line electric car to a RTR style car like the Hyper 8 isn't playing fair. An 1/8th scale in competitive trim, as would be raced by a competitior attending a major event is about $2000+, or more. It can't be done for less. Most racers don't count starter boxes, batteries, engines(usually a back up as well), Good FM radio, etc. in their price comparisons.
Alot of gas fans will bark about E bay at this point, but no "competitive racer" around here buys anything but the best freshest new stuff out to compete.
Changing tires every two or three months doesn't cut it either. Most of the time I see drivers going thru two sets, sometimes more at a one day event! About the same amount as electric racing, at the same level, but the tires/wheels are 3 times as much.

I do race both, so i'm not here to blow sunshine in any particular direction, or to tout what I do at the present time. I'm more into the facts, then proving i'm doing it the right way.


Trailers....i've been racing in Florida for 19 years, the most trailers i've ever seen is 10-15 at a decent size event(TL Winterchamps). At our past State Series race on gas day, 35-40 trailers, Motor homes, etc., for a one day event! On electric day, the following day, 3 trailers(1 left from the day before). Money is a non issue for most gas racers it seems....LOL.











Back on topic....
I find it interesting that someone would argue a conversion for the BJ4 doesn't look like the BJ4 at all.


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Old 09-18-2006, 10:39 PM   #36
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I think the big pluses from the popular gas classes compared to electric are the amount of runtime you get for races (mains being 10 min - 1hr long in many cases compared to 5 minutes) as well as the size of the vehicles (1/8).

I like electric and I am liking nitro truggy, as each have there pluses, but the main thing I think holding back electric right now is the perceived cost of batteries versus runtime. With each change in technology and the prices dropping, I hope this really changes so instead of having all these packs for a race, heck, you have just say 2 that take 15 minutes to charge, brushes systems you can dial in a setting (ala stock racing) or just go all out.

What would be interesting to see is if a larger scale of electric vehicles took off for offroad without having to have more invested than your typical nitro vehicle.
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Old 09-18-2006, 11:49 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W.E.D.Jim
Rocket42, Comparing a top of the line electric car to a RTR style car like the Hyper 8 isn't playing fair. An 1/8th scale in competitive trim, as would be raced by a competitior attending a major event is about $2000+, or more. It can't be done for less. Most racers don't count starter boxes, batteries, engines(usually a back up as well), Good FM radio, etc. in their price comparisons.
Alot of gas fans will bark about E bay at this point, but no "competitive racer" around here buys anything but the best freshest new stuff out to compete.
Changing tires every two or three months doesn't cut it either. Most of the time I see drivers going thru two sets, sometimes more at a one day event! About the same amount as electric racing, at the same level, but the tires/wheels are 3 times as much.

I do race both, so i'm not here to blow sunshine in any particular direction, or to tout what I do at the present time. I'm more into the facts, then proving i'm doing it the right way.


Trailers....i've been racing in Florida for 19 years, the most trailers i've ever seen is 10-15 at a decent size event(TL Winterchamps). At our past State Series race on gas day, 35-40 trailers, Motor homes, etc., for a one day event! On electric day, the following day, 3 trailers(1 left from the day before). Money is a non issue for most gas racers it seems....LOL.











Back on topic....
I find it interesting that someone would argue a conversion for the BJ4 doesn't look like the BJ4 at all.


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do you think they take rtr to the worlds.

jim i tried to end this conversation and you want to keep pushing me, first off and i am about this one, the hyper 8 is not a ready to run but pro level kit 2 made the a-main at the worlds as many as any other company, oh and so did jammin. these kits are both under $500 and is well known to be the working mans 1/8 of course there are the big guns the $600+ buggies, but the worlds this year proved that is not neccesary. Whats not playing fair is comparing a pro level 1/8 buggy to a top of the line 2wd, the car has half of the drivetrain so it should cost half as much, but look at the prices of the bj4, predator, yokomo i have seen the hyper 8 on ebay for $350, thats the price of the losi xx-4we, the kyosho car is cheaper but supposed to require a lot of hop ups. predator is $600 kit cost is as much as the losi 8ight, compairing the newest suppost to be most dialed in its class.

ok tires the fact of the matter is most 1/8 tracks are watered regularly and because of the cars weight they build up ruts and loam making tires last longer, where do you get 1/8 tires cost 3 times more. proline 1/8 tires are 16.99, proline 1/10 tires are $11.50, rims are the same price as 1/10 as long as you don't buy pro line rims. that comes to a difference of $10 a set, well since you seem to think that 1/8 tires don't last here is how long my proline crimefighter m2 lasted i raced round 1 of the r/c proseries west 4 practice rounds, 4, qualifier, 30 min. main round 2 oregon r/c pro series track was ran dry 2 practice rounds, 4 qualifiers, 30 min main, tq'd finshed 5th in vegas 2nd in oregon. on the same tires, if oregon wasn't ran dry i would be using the same tires for round 4. i would like to see you run that on your 1/10 scale tires and your mains are only 5 mins and you couldn't pull it off. there goes your whole competitive guys don't go 3 months on tires theory.

you say a 1/8 in competitive trim to attend a major race is $2000, well lets just do the math, same radio as electric, same servo as electric, the speed control negates the throttle servo. if you attend a large elec. race you need at least 3 motors of different armatures to adjust to track, compared to 1 fast nitro motor and spare parts for it or the old trusty o.s. rg. how much is that pro level charger oh you paid $350 for that turbo thirty huh oh and another $90 bucks for that nifty equalizing tray by novak. power supply works with both cars but there is no need to recharge your reciever pack with anything special. oh wait got to have the comm lathe and spare brushes to keep that motor at optimum. Oh how much were those super dialed 1.20 battery packs you say they were only $65 so you bought 6 packs. Oh sh!t there running the track dry, that means 1 set of tires for every qualifier. plus 3 different tread patterns to try and 3 different foam combinations to try in each tire. hope i don't make the a-main cause then i will have to buy 2 additional sets of tires.

about the trailer thing and your supposed costs the fact of the matter is there will always be guys that have to spend way more money than neccessary because they feel it is an advantage, these people are stupid and the advantage to 1/8 is that there is so many companies competing that you can run competitive for less. Also your forgeting how popular 1/8 is, the same 35-40 trailers you see at a nitro race would still be there at a electric race if electric racing was as popular as nitro. for one i am thrilled to know that 35-40 trailers show up at a big race because that means their are that many guys willing to spend big money at a r/c race and big money brings in big sponsors, is pepsi gonna sponsor 10 kids camped out in a tent at a electric race or 40 guys sitting in trailers, trailers that can be covered with pepsi logos.

let me tell you i fell in love with r/c driving a double xx buggy in the 2wd stock class at orccc in ocala. i never want to see that class fade away, i also remember going to the winter champs in 97 still have my t-shirt and feeling like i couldn't compete because when the tire of choice was discovered i ran to the hobby shop and they were all sold out. I always felt like if i could spend more i would do better. I was a kid back then and its easy in r/c to feel like your budget is holding you back now i know that at least in off road this just isn't true, when i started racing 1/8 i bought a cheap engine i have won and tq'd with that cheap engine multiple times at the local level competeing against the best in the state. (the big money or sponsored drivers) Now i have fun and am still competitive but i puts a big smile on my face to beat guys with my hyper 8 and cheap engine just because of guys like you w.e.d. jim who have the nerve to say thats not competitive you need to spend $2000 on 1/8 equipment to be competitive. you need to use 3 sets of 1/8 tires a day to be competitive utter lies, guys like you that make kids leave the hobby because you said you can't compete with us with that cheap hyper 8 instead of teaching these kids how to be competitive with what they have, how to mantain there cars so parts last longer and racing what they have becomes cheaper. When i used to race electric there was plenty of guys like you around to tell me that this and that is what i needed to be fast, when the truth was what i really needed was drive and determination. You should be happy that r/c has grown to what it has today and not bitch about how the gas guys just spend so much money, because i was just like you racing electric bitching about this guy spends so much money. Like i said before big bucks brings attention and big sponsors, and when people realize that if you really want to be world champ you have to learn with a 2wd the class will stick around.

Iam not trying to say that 1/8 is not more expensive than 1/10 2wd but it is not outragously more expensive and when you compare it at the top levels of competition i think it really has evened out and thats why its so popular.

Now i am being completly fair and compairing apples to small apples. 1/8 is 4wd you cannot compare that to anything but 1/10 4wd. so lets be fair.

Now that i am done writing a book i will start looking for a publisher so i can finance me a super cool air conditioned trailer. (cause i guess thats what you need in florida if you want to be competitive. )

Russell
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Old 09-19-2006, 12:14 AM   #38
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Rocket42- Once you get more expirence in 1/8th buggy racing and run on more than 2 different tracks you'll see that some tracks can be very hard on tires. Some tracks are super easy on tires though t of course, but in some parts of North America most the tracks are hard on tires. For example at the Canadian nationals last month I completely destroyed a set of Panther K2's in a 45min main, most of the track up north here are clay and they kill tires. On an 1/8th scale it gets expensive pretty quick sometimes. Your pricing comparison for 1/8th tires vs. 1/10th tires doesn't work of course though because the front tires on 2wd 1/10th cars last a very long time. So fresh tires only end up being a third of the cost of 1/8th tires, since of course you always have to replace the front and rear. Plus with 1/8th there is the cost of glow plugs, air filters, filter oil, fuel, afterrun oil, carb Orings, backup motors, clutch bearings, clutch shoes/springs. Then again I'm not really complaining, 1/8th buggy is fun to race, and the suspension parts don't break. Racing is expensive.
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Old 09-19-2006, 12:23 AM   #39
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wheel nut you can't compare the cost of racing a 2wd car with the cost of a 4wd. its apples and oranges. first off you raced for 45min to destroy k2's. how many pairs of panther tires would it take in 5 min mains cause that how long they last on the same surface if you raced electric. thats right 9 sets of tires. difference is you raced the equivalent of 9 mains in 1 race. so if your local club runs 15 min mains at club level you get 3 weekends out of your k2's versus maybe 2 weekends out of 1/10. but the actual problem here is that you are running the wrong tire or too soft a compound, and before someone tries to jump on me and say you need a soft compound i say if a soft compound goes bald on you 30 mins into the main and your running on slicks for 15min after that can you really proove you have a advantage over a tire that is a little looser but has knobs for 45min. loose is fast anyways (to a certain point) i saw chad bradleys knuckles after his 45 min main in oregon and they still looked brand new.

also if you go to a big electric race you usually run the same car in 2 classes i.e. mod and stock or mod and 19turn or mod stock and 19turn. when you race 1/8 1 car races in 1 class, not 1 car can race in 3 classes. so that just doubled or tripled your cost of going to a large electric race.

i did include the cost of a spare motor i didn't include the cost of glow plugs air filer oil. i also didn't include the cost of brushes and brush springs and comm stick and comm oil and all the lubes associated with either type of racing, tire sauce additional foams cause the right foam is not included with the tires. and i never said 1/8 is cheaper i said its not that much more expensive and you have more fun for you money, if that wasn't the case it wouldn't be as popular. when was the last time you had a 45min. electric main.

if you want to talk lets compare apples to apples and bring facts. cause i have raced both at top levels. i have only been racing 1/8 for a year after a 6 year hiatus of racing so i am racing the intermediate class at large events and so far i haven't won one yet but i have been in contention every time, i am still learning to tune a nitro motor and when i can i will step up into the pro class. It took me years to learn how to get the most out of a electric engine as well.
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Old 09-19-2006, 03:22 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W.E.D.Jim
Back on topic....
I find it interesting that someone would argue a conversion for the BJ4 doesn't look like the BJ4 at all.
I must have missed the particular bj4 you are refering to jim!
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Old 09-19-2006, 03:35 AM   #41
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Kendell, actaully the first moulded carbon tub (that i'm aware of) in a std kit was the Tenth Technology (when they used the full name!) Predator in about 1994.

Fibrelite in the UK also produced moulded tubs for the Cat 2000 and RC10 Worlds (possibly more, can't remember) at around the same time.
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Old 09-19-2006, 03:47 AM   #42
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I think Tekin made one for the rc10 also ?
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Old 09-19-2006, 08:01 AM   #43
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I will just quickly throw in some details on the 'S4'

basically a conversion for the BJ4WE kind of in the same way that the X-5 is a conversion for the XX4.

its not meant to be 'a car for everyone' it will proberbly be expensive compared to other cars that come out of the box.

but you get some unique features, ideas etc.. think of it like the durango concept but you can actually buy it?

Anyway, its very early days for me with this, and its going to be a fun project to develope this car thats for sure.

Its a shame to leave Losi, they make ace cars and have given me superb support and advise, but a chance to run and develop this prototype idea does not come along that often.

now to post something on the general topic of conversation, I have found 10th electic to be just what I am looking for, good off-road action, 'simple' plug and play setup for cars, and ultra quick cars too.
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Old 09-19-2006, 09:26 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oople
Just thought I would post this pic of the new "atomic carbon S4" that chris doughty has just signed up to race. Chris is a 14 year factory losi driver and former european champion.
I just really like that carbon tub chassis, very cool. There are a lot of very nice cars out / coming out in the off road 10th class, never a bad thing.
That car looks cool. Is 4 cells on one side and 2 on the other becoming standard now?

It's interesting that they are aligned as you would a stick pack too.
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Old 09-19-2006, 07:49 PM   #45
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Rocket42, that was alot of typing you did. I would like to agree with you, just to make this easy, but.....

Since i've been racing for 22+ years, sponsored by TeamLosi, Orion, Redline, Xray, Traxxas, JConcepts, Maxys Fuel, JR Hobbies, Horizon, Corally, Tekin, Team XS batteries, Fusion, P-Dub, Magnum Modifieds and many more companies.
I think I have gained quite a bit of experience over this time. I have raced and won on carpet oval(Snowbirds), dirt oval, off road, on road, won regional titles in 1/8th scale(region 4), 4w modified(twice in region 4), gas truck(region 4) and litterally hundreds of club races.

The only class more expensive to run then 1/8th off road, if you are serious about racing is, 1/8th on road!

From a Bolink Legend to a Kyosho Evolva, i've had them all, knowing what each cost to race competitively is easy for me.

But, it has been fun talking about it just the same. I am not bashing, just speaking from experience and trying to be "truthfull" with myself and the Intraweb folks.




Electric 4wd or 2wd is FAR less money to race. I can't wait until the brushless and Lipos are sorted out better, then it will be 30 minute mains and bump ups for electric too! (One battery pack, one motor, almost no maintenance!) Of course the longer races will make it more expensive, since wear and tear cost money for any class!

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