R/C Tech Forums

Go Back   R/C Tech Forums > General Forums > Electric Off-Road

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 07-28-2006, 02:02 PM   #46
Tech Adept
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Daytona Beach, FL
Posts: 209
Trader Rating: 2 (100%+)
Default

Don't agree with spec tires. If you are going to limit that then lets go to handout shocks. Hey lets just move to handout cars? Where do you stop.

This is a national event. The largest in theory with exclusion of the worlds. It should be who can be the best team. Htat team may be 1 person or it may be 10.

Racing is not only about the driver. It is about matching the right equipment to the driver and then the driver doing his job. Let them do that. If you are only measuring driver skill then do it via a computer simulation.


Regional - Maybe this is a spec tire or limited tire. This would be an event many racers could possibly attend and cost being lower might help with attendance. But I still do not see that happening.
nichocgn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2006, 02:17 PM   #47
Tech Regular
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 293
Trader Rating: 4 (100%+)
Default

u guys are making my brain hurt and it takes too long to read this thread. this is like world war 3 is going to happen and u guys r congress. What happened to rc. I'm a racer myslef but jesus its getting out of hand here with rules.


my .02
xxx-tkid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2006, 02:21 PM   #48
Tech Regular
 
zrchobbies's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: starke, fl
Posts: 463
Trader Rating: 1 (100%+)
Send a message via Yahoo to zrchobbies
Default

Yes the majority of your major racing leagues us a controlled tire with an (open foam) per say but you cant really apply that to r/c. Due to the fact that in order to run open foams u still have to buy a huge assortment of tires to run different foams. I guess I am what you would call a weekend racer I love the sport but running open foams in a spec tire situation is redundant your really not limiting anything. Now if you take the same situation and make it true spec (spec tire/stock foam) then your more along the line of a controlled tire in full size cars. Make em' trim pins if they want to "tune" tires.

Just the Broke guys 2cents
zrchobbies is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2006, 02:24 PM   #49
Tech Regular
 
zrchobbies's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: starke, fl
Posts: 463
Trader Rating: 1 (100%+)
Send a message via Yahoo to zrchobbies
Default

I dont agree with the handout cars or shocks. Thats all about tuning you car which in my opinion defines a "racer" if you spend the time to know you car then THAT should be allowed but as for running a dozen sets of "spec" tires with 101 foam combo's please.
zrchobbies is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2006, 02:26 PM   #50
Tech Regular
 
zrchobbies's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: starke, fl
Posts: 463
Trader Rating: 1 (100%+)
Send a message via Yahoo to zrchobbies
Default

I just think you should be able to sho you capabilities with your dedication to your hobby not how fat your pockets are.
zrchobbies is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2006, 02:56 PM   #51
Tech Fanatic
 
Scrubb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 834
Default

I'm fine with the fact that the manufacturers are going to use a spec tire, Just the reason that they posted for doing so is not the truth. Modified Off-road has never really been a "whoever has the most money wins" type of racing anyway. Everybody can have too much horsepower, everybody can make runtime. If the manufacturers gave everybody attending the race unlimited free tires, the sponsored pros like Truhe, Cavalieri, Mayfield are still gonna win. How come nobody complains about spec tires at the local weekly club level? Why is unlimited spending budget, and unlimited tire choice not a problem on a weekly basis, but the rules need to be changed for the Nationals? Why is it just Nationals? Does anybody really think that using spec tires is going to make an average driver finish better at nationals?
__________________
Mark Westerfield
Scrubb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2006, 03:00 PM   #52
Tech Master
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: michigan
Posts: 1,678
Trader Rating: 14 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by binaryterror
Wow when I think off-road I think running slicks

Maybe its the tracks of the "off road" scene thats the problem. Wheres the Loam, the Deep dust, the mud? What's next ashphalt tracks?

I think everyone missed this one. I was going to say this, but I thought it was going to get shot down. It probably will now. I tend to agree with binary on this one, blue grooves are for chicago night clubs. If you want a consistent surface, go run on road.
o.s. power is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2006, 04:24 PM   #53
Tech Master
 
SkarTisu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 1,669
Trader Rating: 8 (100%+)
Send a message via AIM to SkarTisu Send a message via Yahoo to SkarTisu
Default

If Derek B is who I think he is (Derek Buono - magazine editor) then I'm not going to read his opinions on spec vs. open tire debates without heavily dousing his words with salt, ifyaknowwhatimsayin.

I've been racing these things for 20 years, so I can tell you the arguments that come up from either side of the fence. They are as follows:

Open tire/foam choice - "Wahhhhh! The pros had tires I couldn't have! That's no fair! Where's the factory class! That's what we really need!"

Spec tire/foam - "Wahhhhhh! Pro-Line paid more money to have their tires at the nats, and the compound sucked! I couldn't even drive the car! I didn't even get enough tires to run the whole weekend without them going bald! We need open tire choice back! That's what we really need!"

LMAO!!!! WTF do you want, guys?!

Here are a couple of basic concepts to understand:

- Speed costs money
- Racing is a zero-sum game. You spend as much as you have to go as fast as you can
- Racing is just as much fun on Panthers as it is on Pro-Lines and Losis

Why in the world would you NOT want a measure that helps REDUCE the cost of racing? Those following F1 for the last few years have seen cost cutting measures introduced, and those teams have unlimited budgets. Not even the auto manufacturers want to spend as much as they do!

Sure, there's a component of the new cool toy to racing. Think about why you REALLY do it though. You're out there to simply beat the other guy and to challenge yourself to do better.

You want ruts and crappy track conditions? Race a gas vehicle! LOL!
SkarTisu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2006, 04:51 PM   #54
Tech Master
 
DerekB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Southern California
Posts: 1,421
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SkarTisu
If Derek B is who I think he is (Derek Buono - magazine editor) then I'm not going to read his opinions on spec vs. open tire debates without heavily dousing his words with salt, ifyaknowwhatimsayin.

I've been racing these things for 20 years, so I can tell you the arguments that come up from either side of the fence. They are as follows:

Open tire/foam choice - "Wahhhhh! The pros had tires I couldn't have! That's no fair! Where's the factory class! That's what we really need!"

Spec tire/foam - "Wahhhhhh! Pro-Line paid more money to have their tires at the nats, and the compound sucked! I couldn't even drive the car! I didn't even get enough tires to run the whole weekend without them going bald! We need open tire choice back! That's what we really need!"

LMAO!!!! WTF do you want, guys?!

Here are a couple of basic concepts to understand:

- Speed costs money
- Racing is a zero-sum game. You spend as much as you have to go as fast as you can
- Racing is just as much fun on Panthers as it is on Pro-Lines and Losis

Why in the world would you NOT want a measure that helps REDUCE the cost of racing? Those following F1 for the last few years have seen cost cutting measures introduced, and those teams have unlimited budgets. Not even the auto manufacturers want to spend as much as they do!

Sure, there's a component of the new cool toy to racing. Think about why you REALLY do it though. You're out there to simply beat the other guy and to challenge yourself to do better.

You want ruts and crappy track conditions? Race a gas vehicle! LOL!
I'm not even sure what you childish comment means? You take my opinion with a grain of salt, even when I say I want better products through testing...and then go on to say similar things?

But I'm sure the opinion of an "magnoliafan23" is much better than mine.

And if somebody could explain how this saves money? Do you still not have to buy tires? There no reduction in the amount, before this they sold tires at the track or you found out what worked and went with that.

Control tires in real racing is NOT the same. We BUY the stuff raced. You don't by an F1, or a NASCAR or ANY part on the car. Back in the day that used to sell product, now it's advertising whoring and basically WWF with cars...NASCAR is all about the driver, nobody cares if Ford wins or if it's Camary.

WE BUY PRODUCT RACE. MAKE BETTER STUFF THAT MAKES YOU WIN.
__________________
Velocity RC Magazine
www.vrcmag.com
DerekB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2006, 07:05 PM   #55
Tech Elite
 
Turbo Joe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Corona, CA
Posts: 4,878
Trader Rating: 41 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DerekB
I'm not even sure what you childish comment means? You take my opinion with a grain of salt, even when I say I want better products through testing...and then go on to say similar things?

But I'm sure the opinion of an "magnoliafan23" is much better than mine.
It's not THAT hard to figure it out...LOL. He's basically saying that as a "magazine guy", you may have an axe or two to grind, and or a financial interest in one side of the argument or another.

I don't know if I agree with him or not, but I hardly think it was all THAT out of line to mention it. It's not like you haven't heard (or even said) worse in the past, right?

I've really enjoyed this discussion thus far and I hope it stays civil or at least good-natured. I'll never be going to any "national" (whatever THAT means) race, so it's all just an academic argument to me.

Along that theme: Why do you think there's no parallel between "big" car and "little" car racing when it comes to spec/controlled tires? It seems to be a pretty valid comparison to me.

Of course "big" car racing is more about brand identity than "little" car racing, but the basic idea still applies -- take one variable out, cut the cost somewhat for the teams. Assuming a controlled insert -- since you can't just add or remove air -- let the drivers and the tuners play the hand they're dealt. That's racing, right?

It's not like you get to select the obstacles on the track or the dirt...so now you don't select the tires and you spend less money. The good guys should be able to drive and tune their way around a slightly sub-optimal tire. The result should be substantially the same, only at a lower cost...right?

And DerekB -- a smart company doesn't do R&D at a big race. They do R&D at a local race or practice night, when you can do lots of trials and control for the variables. The risks are too high if you should get it wrong. Do the R&D at home, come up with a great tire and make it the control tire at the next "Nationals" race. That's how you make and sell lots of a great tire, not making a one-off tire just for one track and one event.
Turbo Joe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2006, 09:21 PM   #56
Tech Regular
 
SlobbaTech's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 423
Default

The only drivers agreed to use the manufacturers handout tire options are in the list that Todd posted. It is not a ROAR handout tire, so if you're not on he above list then you have the option of possibly smoking everybody at the nationals. All that it's going to take is for you to spend a lot of money on purchasing a bunch of treads/comnpounds and trying them all out. So yeah.....I don't see anybody doing that because bottom line is no one wants to or for the most part would be willing (if they had the money) to spend that much on stocking up on X amount of tires in each compound/tread to last them through the race week. You can't always count on the local hobby shops having the tires you need. Planet's track isn't like Socal, when pinks work at planet they work on every vehicle, when M3's work it's for every vehicle after the track's "compound transition/appetite" stage.
__________________
Hot Bodies, HPI, Novak Electronics, JR Propo, Lunsford, Skipgear.com, Planet R/C, Vinyl Graphics Unlimited, JConcepts, B-Mods Racing, CRCRC, King's R/C Raceway, Avid R/C, GMK Supply, & Pacific Coast Hobbies.
SlobbaTech is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2006, 06:03 AM   #57
Tech Regular
 
zrchobbies's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: starke, fl
Posts: 463
Trader Rating: 1 (100%+)
Send a message via Yahoo to zrchobbies
Default

I agree with Turbo. The idea behind a spec tire IS to reduce cost by removing a variable. I have a 92 notch that i race locally in D,O.T class and the difference between tuning a treaded drag tire and an all out slick is just not comparable in tunability or cost. By eleminating any option but a 10.5 dot legal tire you eliminate the other guy that has the option to spend extra money on tire to hook up. Instead it comes down to knowing their car and their ability to tune their car. You can have all the power u want and make it stick with a 14.5 full blown drag slick, but reduce that option and it comes down to both the driver and their ability to tune not "I can afford to buy bigger slicks than you"

Just My 2
and Derek love your mag But i think that was a stab at you literature not being interesting enough.
zrchobbies is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2006, 01:56 PM   #58
TLRacing
 
Frank Root's Avatar
R/C Tech Elite Subscriber
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Corona, CA, USA
Posts: 5,434
Trader Rating: 25 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by nichocgn
Don't agree with spec tires. If you are going to limit that then lets go to handout shocks. Hey lets just move to handout cars? Where do you stop.
There is a bigggggg difference between shocks and tires. Tires ($13) + Wheels ($6) + Foam ($3-6) = $22 - $25 for every set of 2wd rears you wanna try... plus however many you need for the whole weekend. I could rebuild my shocks every battery pack for less than $10 in oil... that's the difference. And to get at the notion that you have to match tires, car setup, and so forth, I have never been to a race where the top 3 didn't all run the same times as 19 of the top 20... IMO
__________________
Frank Root -- TLR Project Manager
Twitter - @FrankRoot FB - facebook.com/FrankRootTLR
Team Losi Racing (TLR) - Team Orion - Spektrum - JConcepts - Horizon Hobby - Stick It 1 - Sticky Kicks - Bradley's Fine Line Designs - liverc.com - OCRC Raceway - Tuning Haus - Pacific Coast Hobbies - RIP
Frank Root is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2006, 08:07 PM   #59
Tech Elite
 
W.E.D.Jim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Kissimmee,Fl.
Posts: 4,927
Trader Rating: 17 (95%+)
Send a message via AIM to W.E.D.Jim
Default

It's funny that the manufacturers are doing the opposite of what they usually do and alot of people are STILL complaining. They are trying to save money, but they have not stopped development. It has slowed, or moved to 1/8th scale, but not stopped.

When it was run what you brung TL had Yellow offroad rubber and Proline had M2.5, both also had a TON of other compounds and developed never available tires I won't mention here.

Development gets to a point where a manufacturer is only obsoleting their own product, what is the point in that?

Here is an idea, if you want more technology and can do better, do it......What is stopping all the people who claim it is easy and only costs .30?

I have seen hundreds of R/C related business', some with multiple two page adds in the magazines go out of business. It's not easy.

They do things like this to survive, and thrive, in spite of what us IntraWeb genious's think, it isn't to make people upset, just the opposite.

Peace...Jim
__________________
www.wedjim.com ...Reopening soon. I'm still painting, just not with 40+ bodies waiting. :)
www.prolineracing.com
www.HarleyDavidson.com
"Nothing but the best!"
W.E.D.Jim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2006, 01:05 PM   #60
Tech Master
 
DerekB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Southern California
Posts: 1,421
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbo Joe
It's not THAT hard to figure it out...LOL. He's basically saying that as a "magazine guy", you may have an axe or two to grind, and or a financial interest in one side of the argument or another.

I don't know if I agree with him or not, but I hardly think it was all THAT out of line to mention it. It's not like you haven't heard (or even said) worse in the past, right?

I've really enjoyed this discussion thus far and I hope it stays civil or at least good-natured. I'll never be going to any "national" (whatever THAT means) race, so it's all just an academic argument to me.

Along that theme: Why do you think there's no parallel between "big" car and "little" car racing when it comes to spec/controlled tires? It seems to be a pretty valid comparison to me.

Of course "big" car racing is more about brand identity than "little" car racing, but the basic idea still applies -- take one variable out, cut the cost somewhat for the teams. Assuming a controlled insert -- since you can't just add or remove air -- let the drivers and the tuners play the hand they're dealt. That's racing, right?

It's not like you get to select the obstacles on the track or the dirt...so now you don't select the tires and you spend less money. The good guys should be able to drive and tune their way around a slightly sub-optimal tire. The result should be substantially the same, only at a lower cost...right?

And DerekB -- a smart company doesn't do R&D at a big race. They do R&D at a local race or practice night, when you can do lots of trials and control for the variables. The risks are too high if you should get it wrong. Do the R&D at home, come up with a great tire and make it the control tire at the next "Nationals" race. That's how you make and sell lots of a great tire, not making a one-off tire just for one track and one event.

I fully understand what he meant with is little "I'm on the internet and you do this for a living and therefore have an opinion that is paid for' even though I"m against this and offering what problems this causes and has caused.

R&D is definitely done at the track. It's the end product of all the testing they did BEFORE the race. And if they make a better tire, let that better tire win. IT's cost cutting for the manufacturer ONLY. YOU STILL HAVE TO BUY THE SAME TIRES, FOAMS RIMS.

This stuff belongs at a regional not at this level. But what happened to this helping other brands compete? IT's eliminating sponsors, and will limit new tire companies from entering the market with better product. What if ROAR adopted this (and they have in the past) but GRP made the best tire, that lasted 4 times as long, and saved you tons of money? You can't use it now because it's not legal.

For every "spec/control" tire example for full size there is one with out. Limiting demensions and type is not the same as limiting brand.

Enjoy your "spec tires"
__________________
Velocity RC Magazine
www.vrcmag.com
DerekB is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
2008 ROAR Offroad Electric Nationals Braaap Electric On-Road 0 08-16-2008 03:43 PM
2008 ROAR Offroad Electric Nationals @ Hot Rod Hobbies!!! Jimmy Babcock Racing Forum 12 07-08-2008 11:41 PM
2008 New Zealand Electric Offroad Nationals fatbear Australian Racing 21 03-16-2008 03:11 PM
INDOOR OFFROAD ELECTRIC CARPET NATIONALS Painy Australian Racing 41 06-19-2006 04:57 AM
read the electric 4wd and see if u agree with me rhymster Electric Off-Road 18 05-28-2006 06:31 PM



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -7. It is currently 09:59 PM.


Powered By: vBulletin v3.9.2.1
Privacy Policy | Terms of Use | Advertise Content © 2001-2011 RCTech.net