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Old 07-27-2006, 08:54 PM   #31
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at last years nationals, AE and Losi "agreed" to use spec tires. These spec tires just happen to be the exact same tires that would be required at the following world championships a few weeks later. Even down to the stock foam inserts. Sure AE and Losi said it was for the same reason they are saying for this nationals too. But we all know that it was for worlds testing.

so this year, they are feeding the average joe the same crock of s**t. Although this time its much better. They didn't agree to use holeshots...of coarse not. everybody knows those don't work at planet rc. They agreed to use pink taper pins and and inside jobs. The inside jobs work best when the track is dry, the pink tapers work best when the track is wet. These are the exact same tires that are used at the track anyway. Every racer at nationals is going to have those tires, not because some "agreement", but because those are the tires that work there. But boy, this time they really gave themselves a loophole. Ae and Losi are going to leave the foam inserts open...well of coarse they are, because the inserts that come with those tires are not the hot ticket anyway...Trinity grey bomb 1 or white grey bomb 2 are the best inserts for that track. So, basically AE and Losi agreed to use the same tires that everybody else has already been using anyway, and they can use whatever foam insert they want and they made no mention of each driver getting a limited quantity. Sooo. What the heck is the point of the "agreed" spec tire?

"Like last year, in an effort to control costs and insure a level playing field, Team Associated, Team Losi, X-Factory and Peak/Orion have agreed to compete with a limited selection of tires. This year Planet R/C Raceway will host the ROAR Modified Nationals from August 8-13 in Indianapolis, IN

Last year marked the inaugural agreement among teams to utilize a spec tire system; this year the agreement has been slightly modified to allow for more choices and sponsorship representation.

The driving force behind this decision is the cost associated with attending an event of this magnitude. Now the average racer can show up to the event with only a few types of tires and be assured they will compete against the best without a disadvantage in tire tread or compound."

Sure would have been simpler to say the truth and just say, "these are the tires and insert we are going to be using because thats what works." Simple, and honest.
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Old 07-27-2006, 09:39 PM   #32
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Red rear tires, silver fronts, and R3's all can work well or decently well at Planet. So that's another 3 compounds mulitiplied by a few treads in each compound times each vehicle/class amounts to a lot more tires that anyone would nee to have to be "prepared". To me I don't think it's that bad/big deal to do a controlled tire for nationals races, yes it's a National title but all of the major races are "national level" races with all of the same factory drivers being present. So winning the Cactus Classic is the "same" as a nationals except it was held in a different town, on a different date, and has a different race name.....point being the competition is still the same and it's just as difficult to beat those drivers at any time. Manufacturers still have maybe close to a dozen national level type races they travel to in addition to "big local" type races (like JBRL Series, regional races, etc....) for them to develop new treads or compounds. Really other than maybe compounds can make a slight improvement the treads out there pretty much cover every type of track condition very well, some of the tires are "copies" of other tires or the tread design is an "improved/migrated" one from a previous tread pattern. You also have the non-sponsored drivers on a budget trying to make a name for themselves, if they see they need to spend a butt load of money on 3 compounds multiplied by 2-3 treads in each compound that much money can keep them away from certain races. Yes if you want to win/do good you gotta work and pay for it and any racers/teams' budget can limit how far they can go, but R/C isn't working off budgets like F-1 does. The majority of R/C works off some spare money here and there for most racers that keep the manufactures in business. With the Nationals having the "best" name attached to it that can be the place to get noticed by manufacturers for sponsorship for those unsponsored drivers on the move, so detouring those type of racers away can only hurt the R/C economy in the long run.
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Old 07-27-2006, 10:01 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by DerekB
Nationals aren't a place for those on a limited budget, this is a place where you strive to make it to. I think there already are too many people at Nationals that don't belong, which makes people feel bad for them. Limit the entries to 100 or 150, make the entry $150 and puts some of the glamour back into regionals to qualify. That would help racing and "cost" since regionals are much cheaper than a nationals.
Somebody is finally making sense! This would make the nationals actually mean something like they did 15 years ago!

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Nobody seems to cry when pros have ESCs you can't buy, motors they don't sell, foam they won't tell you about, special tire-cancer sauces. We just worry about bringing tires without foams to a high level race.
No shit, where's my QC3 dammit?!
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Old 07-27-2006, 11:47 PM   #34
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Let me give you my story on spec tyres.

I am lucky enough to have raced (badly) at the Florida words in 2003, which as you smart gents will know, was run on spec tyres AND inserts for both classes. 2wd fronts were open.

We race on loam at home, and I had never raced on clay, but spec tyres meant I didn't have to worry about buying a whole bunch of tyres, I got three sets of each, two for qualifying (10 rounds) and one set for finals day (two races, as I was never going to make the A). I had three different front tyres judged from what most ran at the Losi races etc at the track.

What I learnt was:
1)Brian Kinwald, Todd, Cavalieri et al are 2 seconds a lap faster than me even when I am using the same tyre and a lower wind motor, because they are professional
2)Spec tyres saved me so much money and frustration, as I could run a level pegged tyre with drivers of my caliber, and that was one less thing I had to worry about
3)If inserts are open, the pro's will still spend a lot on tyres as they will have every tyre with a different insert. Add another kind of tyre, and that makes even more tyres to buy. How do I know this? You should have seen the bags the pros had full of just 2wd front tyres at the worlds. There were about three tyres that worked, and they had endless combo's of tyres/inserts. They will have every possible combo for both types of rear tyres.

Think, Losi pinks with medium, firm, and two stage inserts for practice. That's 3 pairs of rears only. Multiply by two if you decide to try Prolines also. 6 sets. Add two sets for the ideal tyres you choose from your practice sets that you decide to run in qualifying and finals, if you want to risk running one set qualifying, one set finals (add more if you want to bankroll a new set every run, which some will do, it is the nationals after all). 8 sets. But wait, the track changes over the day (like most have been saying), you decide the prolines are good in dry and losis in wet and you want to be prepared, so add another 2 sets. 10 sets and you are good to go, some will get more. And this is rear tyres for ONE CAR! Multiply the same scenario for rears for another car, 20 sets. Same scenario for 4wd fronts, 30 sets. 2wd fronts? Pessimistic guess at 3 sets. That's 33 sets of tyres and rims. Sure it's hypothetical, but probably mid fielders and above will do this.

Spec tyres. One set practice. Add two sets qualifying and finals (again, a low guess). 3 sets. Times 2 for 2 cars. 6 Sets. Add 4wd fronts. 9 sets. Add 3 2wd fronts = 12 sets, just over a third.

I know which I would rather race under, and which I would probably avoid if I had to travel far because that already costs a lot.

I'm just lucky we aren't that competitive down here that a different kind of insert might win or lose a race (we don't run spec tyres).

So in my opinion
A) Spec tyres should be the one tyre that works best at that track in the range of conditions that are likely to occur and one kind of insert (stock is best as is cheapest), to keep the cost as low as it could be.
B) Spec tyres are best for the customer who wants to race at a track out of town for less money, and with one less thing to worry about, to have more fun
C) Pro's are fast no matter what is on their wheels and in their tyres, that is why they get paid. Spec tyres might hold them back.
D) Two choices of tyre and open inserts limits possibilities, but is still very broad, and still could cost a lot if you are at the level to tell differences between inserts and tyre mounting methods. One spec tyre and insert is best.
E) It may be possible there is a tyre for most conditions available already - other than slicks - can anyone think of conditions that don't have a tyre that would work? I can't, so I am not sure that tyre technology is being limited, as tyre technology may be as far as it can go already? Hmm, maybe not, but I think at least there is an option for 99% of the conditions everyday racers face.
F) Spec tyres are seeming to favour the "big two", so could be anti-competitive, though again, it should always come down to the best spec tyre for the situation, so maybe the other companies have to lift their game.

And that's all I gotta say. Which is a lot.

Oh, and Todd's a nice guy, was good to meet you in FL way back then Todd.
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Old 07-28-2006, 10:48 AM   #35
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Information overload, took like 30 minutes to read, brain tired..



But in all seriousness, I have several disagreements here. For one, Derek pointed out that the "spec tires has ruin on-road tires development." I think this notion is rediculous. First off, during club racing, everyone runs Sorex tires, not the spec tires, CS-27 or RP-30. Second, Sorex has been on top for a few year because their tires is the best, period. They did a superb job of design and R&D and it show. Second, development is still happening. If it wasn't, there would be no RP-30s. They are the "new" spec tires of choice at several races and have taken over for CS-27s. As for Pro-Line and Losi on-road tire development, they really weren't on pace even when they made tires. Besides, I think Pro-Line is quite happy controlling the 1/8th market instead. Also, I find On-road racing to expensive for my taste. Image for a second if you had to travel to a big race without a spec tire rule. How many sets of tires would you need to bring? In how many compounds? In how many multiple set to try how many different inserts/sauces/ect..? Way too many. IMO

Now to offroad - I agree to a few things. First off, this Manufacturer agreemnet is a good idea, but I don't think it helps much. From everything I have heard, it will be Pink Tapers almost no matter what the track is like. So why have two choices and open foam? If you are gonna have 2 choices, why not 3, or 4, or leaving it open? If they are gonna agree to a "spec tire," it should be one tire. If you want to be fair to both manufacturers, then alternate years, or even classes. i.e. 2wd Losi, truck Proline, 4wd losi - the next year 2wd proline, truck losi, 4wd proline? Also, I have to agree a stock insert is in the best interest of all paying drivers.

As for the notion that the less talented, non-factory drivers should just stay home, I believe this to be rediculous. I can point out in soooo many ways why this is wrong. "You can't do it son, so don't bother trying.." Not the attitude that will help the sport grow, period. We are always talking about how sad it is the Nationals have gotten sooo small, so lets limit it more! Not for me. How does the Cactus fills up 350 entries in 4 days, but the ROAR Nats can't sniff 300 in 4 months? I am a fair driver, not factory by any means, and at the Nats I would be delighted to be in the C. But at the shootout, I managed to put together 2 or the best 5 minutes runs of my life and qualified 6th at the shootout infront of some fast drivers. I didn't think I could, so maybe I shouldn't have tried....? Everyone who has a desire to do their best, to try to be the best, and has the means to do so should be at the Nationals.

As for the notion, a spec tire at the Nationals with curb tire development, I believe to be untrue. Lets not forget on the spec tires was actually released not 3 months ago. But I guess Pro-Line won't ever develop anything new.. I still remember going to tracks, like every track I have ever raced at, where those spec tires wouldn't be the tires of choice. I have personal witnessed Pavidas run the Cactus this year on Pro-Line tires (Losi tires are dominant there) and he made the A-main with them. I would bet they weren't M3, R3, or M2, so I gotta believe they are still working on development everythough there was a spec tire last year at the Nat and worlds.

K, I am done thinking..
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Old 07-28-2006, 10:48 AM   #36
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Information overload, took like 30 minutes to read, brain tired..



But in all seriousness, I have several disagreements here. For one, Derek pointed out that the "spec tires has ruin on-road tires development." I think this notion is rediculous. First off, during club racing, everyone runs Sorex tires, not the spec tires, CS-27 or RP-30. Second, Sorex has been on top for a few year because their tires is the best, period. They did a superb job of design and R&D and it show. Second, development is still happening. If it wasn't, there would be no RP-30s. They are the "new" spec tires of choice at several races and have taken over for CS-27s. As for Pro-Line and Losi on-road tire development, they really weren't on pace even when they made tires. Besides, I think Pro-Line is quite happy controlling the 1/8th market instead. Also, I find On-road racing to expensive for my taste. Image for a second if you had to travel to a big race without a spec tire rule. How many sets of tires would you need to bring? In how many compounds? In how many multiple set to try how many different inserts/sauces/ect..? Way too many. IMO

Now to offroad - I agree to a few things. First off, this Manufacturer agreemnet is a good idea, but I don't think it helps much. From everything I have heard, it will be Pink Tapers almost no matter what the track is like. So why have two choices and open foam? If you are gonna have 2 choices, why not 3, or 4, or leaving it open? If they are gonna agree to a "spec tire," it should be one tire. If you want to be fair to both manufacturers, then alternate years, or even classes. i.e. 2wd Losi, truck Proline, 4wd losi - the next year 2wd proline, truck losi, 4wd proline? Also, I have to agree a stock insert is in the best interest of all paying drivers.

As for the notion that the less talented, non-factory drivers should just stay home, I believe this to be rediculous. I can point out in soooo many ways why this is wrong. "You can't do it son, so don't bother trying.." Not the attitude that will help the sport grow, period. We are always talking about how sad it is the Nationals have gotten sooo small, so lets limit it more! Not for me. How does the Cactus fills up 350 entries in 4 days, but the ROAR Nats can't sniff 300 in 4 months? I am a fair driver, not factory by any means, and at the Nats I would be delighted to be in the C. But at the shootout, I managed to put together 2 or the best 5 minutes runs of my life and qualified 6th at the shootout infront of some fast drivers. I didn't think I could, so maybe I shouldn't have tried....? Everyone who has a desire to do their best, to try to be the best, and has the means to do so should be at the Nationals.

As for the notion, a spec tire at the Nationals with curb tire development, I believe to be untrue. Lets not forget on the spec tires was actually released not 3 months ago. But I guess Pro-Line won't ever develop anything new.. I still remember going to tracks, like every track I have ever raced at, where those spec tires wouldn't be the tires of choice. I have personal witnessed Pavidas run the Cactus this year on Pro-Line tires (Losi tires are dominant there) and he made the A-main with them. I would bet they weren't M3, R3, or M2, so I gotta believe they are still working on development everythough there was a spec tire last year at the Nat and worlds.

K, I am done thinking..
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Old 07-28-2006, 11:37 AM   #37
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Doing proline for 2wd and losi for truck and 4wd doesn't work. Most of the time a proline and losi tire do not work equally well at the same time on he same surface, usually one is good and the other does donuts. Proline doesn't have a good wet clay track compound...they also only have square fuzzie and holeshot tread for truck rear tires. So of those 2 treads and their currently available compounds, anyone running truck with any combination of their tires/compounds on a wet clay track has no chance of finding grip. There's just no beating the pink compound in that situation. Proline tires do work well when the track is dry and that is when the pinks don't...pinks don't like dust and if the dust is bad enough they could work as badly as prolines do on a wet track. So doing the tire agreement how they did this year is the best compromise while having tires that actually work well. Foams can vary depending if the track is wet/dry/traction level, truck you need stock and Bomb 1 grey foam, 2wd/4wd stock foam f/r, bomb 1 grey and bomb 2 soft grey/white foams.
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Old 07-28-2006, 11:50 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SlobbaTech
Doing proline for 2wd and losi for truck and 4wd doesn't work. Most of the time a proline and losi tire do not work equally well at the same time on he same surface, usually one is good and the other does donuts. Proline doesn't have a good wet clay track compound...they also only have square fuzzie and holeshot tread for truck rear tires. So of those 2 treads and their currently available compounds, anyone running truck with any combination of their tires/compounds on a wet clay track has no chance of finding grip. There's just no beating the pink compound in that situation. Proline tires do work well when the track is dry and that is when the pinks don't...pinks don't like dust and if the dust is bad enough they could work as badly as prolines do on a wet track. So doing the tire agreement how they did this year is the best compromise while having tires that actually work well. Foams can vary depending if the track is wet/dry/traction level, truck you need stock and Bomb 1 grey foam, 2wd/4wd stock foam f/r, bomb 1 grey and bomb 2 soft grey/white foams.

I am quite aware of the fact that Pink Losi tires might work better as I race on a clay track 3 times a week. But if everyone is on the same tires...it would work fine. And just any FYI, considering that "Pink Xs" are the best clay tires for SoCal... it is interesting that on truck, pink tires don't work and everyone runs Holeshots/Edges M3.....
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Old 07-28-2006, 12:34 PM   #39
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That may be the case at SoCal, but every indoor track is different Frank... Humidity & heat vary greatly from SoCal to Denver to Indy. Here at Mhor, you can run M3's... For about $30 a night. Depending on the tread, they will last 4-5 minutes before they're bald, and be 2-3 seconds slower per lap than any pink compound tire. This includes Pink Step Pins j/k.. Right now, in the summer time, you can run pink slicks with a little WD40 for weeks, until the foam wears out.

like sl0bbatek said, proline doesnt have a good wet clay track compound, that works in general at most clay indoor tracks. From what i can tell nationwide (because i know i'm going to get lipped for not racing at BillyBob's indoor track), Pinks are automatic on wet clay indoor tracks.

And for those folks out there that say Panther doesnt have a chance at getting the tire bid at a nationals - Have they even tried? Do they have a proven 1/10th scale tire that will last more than 1 run? The switch is a great copy of a taper pin, but will it work at more than 1 type of track (outdoor blue groove)? To me - it seems like they're doing well selling a gonzo amount of 1/8th scale tires, and the only ad's i see of theirs have the top 10 dudes at whatever race, holding 1/8th buggy's and truggies. With the exception of their new clay compound, I honestly don't think they are that motivated in 1/10th scale offroad right now, but i could be wrong...
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Old 07-28-2006, 12:39 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lars Johnson
That may be the case at SoCal, but every indoor track is different Frank... Humidity & heat vary greatly from SoCal to Denver to Indy. Here at Mhor, you can run M3's... For about $30 a night. Depending on the tread, they will last 4-5 minutes before they're bald, and be 2-3 seconds slower per lap than any pink compound tire. This includes Pink Step Pins j/k.. Right now, in the summer time, you can run pink slicks with a little WD40 for weeks, until the foam wears out.

like sl0bbatek said, proline doesnt have a good wet clay track compound, that works in general at most clay indoor tracks. From what i can tell nationwide (because i know i'm going to get lipped for not racing at BillyBob's indoor track), Pinks are automatic on wet clay indoor tracks.

And for those folks out there that say Panther doesnt have a chance at getting the tire bid at a nationals - Have they even tried? Do they have a proven 1/10th scale tire that will last more than 1 run? The switch is a great copy of a taper pin, but will it work at more than 1 type of track (outdoor blue groove)? To me - it seems like they're doing well selling a gonzo amount of 1/8th scale tires, and the only ad's i see of theirs have the top 10 dudes at whatever race, holding 1/8th buggy's and truggies. With the exception of their new clay compound, I honestly don't think they are that motivated in 1/10th scale offroad right now, but i could be wrong...
Point well taken, and understood. Just trying to come up with a solution that will appease Racer, The Good of the Hobby, and the Manufacturers. So much for a pipe dream......
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Old 07-28-2006, 12:41 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by Lars Johnson
And for those folks out there that say Panther doesnt have a chance at getting the tire bid at a nationals - Have they even tried? Do they have a proven 1/10th scale tire that will last more than 1 run? The switch is a great copy of a taper pin, but will it work at more than 1 type of track (outdoor blue groove)? To me - it seems like they're doing well selling a gonzo amount of 1/8th scale tires, and the only ad's i see of theirs have the top 10 dudes at whatever race, holding 1/8th buggy's and truggies. With the exception of their new clay compound, I honestly don't think they are that motivated in 1/10th scale offroad right now, but i could be wrong...
Panther did get the bid for this years Stock Nats in washington but they are running them bald so thats a different case.
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Old 07-28-2006, 01:09 PM   #42
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Right now, in the summer time, you can run pink slicks with a little WD40 for weeks, until the foam wears out.
Wow when I think off-road I think running slicks

Maybe its the tracks of the "off road" scene thats the problem. Wheres the Loam, the Deep dust, the mud? What's next ashphalt tracks?
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Old 07-28-2006, 01:14 PM   #43
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It only happens in the summer, when the garage doors open and track dries out a bit. It's actually really dialed Come October, you must have pins on your tires to live thru a 5 minute race.

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Originally Posted by tripthreat
Just trying to come up with a solution that will appease Racer, The Good of the Hobby, and the Manufacturers.
It's out there, and threads like this help the thought process of everyone involved. I just think Roar needs to listen more to the MFG's and racers that are actually attending the races and spending their hard earned cash. And actually look at what is going on at all levels of R/C racing, rather than regress the rules and make the electric mod nats a free-for-all race of "what team can spend the most money..." This is not F1, Nascar, or MX, and to my knowledge, there is no unlimited budget for any company involved in R/C.

BTW - When are you going to get new paint Frank?? your shootout bodies were Hutring

rcdude - see, i didnt even know that if they can get the stock nats, they should not be overlooked for a race of the Mod Nats level, as long as they are willing to put in a bid.
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Old 07-28-2006, 01:24 PM   #44
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BTW - When are you going to get new paint Frank?? your shootout bodies were Hutring

Umm yeah, I don't know what happened to them, they were supposed to show....
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Old 07-28-2006, 01:35 PM   #45
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Nascar, CART, IRL all use "control" tires, everyone runs the same compound and they only get a certain number of tires for the event...no matter if they're a bucks-up team or scrapin'. The manufacturers come up with the best compound they can for the track and that's what everybody runs. "Inserts" are open (air pressure and stagger), though...LOL
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INDOOR OFFROAD ELECTRIC CARPET NATIONALS Painy Australian Racing 41 06-19-2006 04:57 AM
read the electric 4wd and see if u agree with me rhymster Electric Off-Road 18 05-28-2006 06:31 PM



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