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Old 07-27-2006, 12:53 PM   #16
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WELL THANKS FOR YOUR ASSISTANCE MR HELPER..

now that the smartass thing is out of the way. the indoor clay track we have/had here, both tires worked, when dry the prolines hooked up better, damp, wet, pink's all the way.

i know planet used to be pink slicks, not pink tapers, havent raced there in a while.
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Old 07-27-2006, 01:10 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrubb
The tires choices the manufactures have "agreed" to use at the nats this year are the tires of choice for that track anyway. Even if they didn't "agree" to using these tires, they would be anyway.
So why not go back to the old rule, and make the Pink Taper pin or M3 Inside Job the spec tire? at least everyone would know what to bring....

I agree 100% with Todd - the no spec tire rule is rediculous. You can spend an hour rooting around online and see locals saying - "well it might be reds, but it could be M3's, but if it's wet then definitely pinks" blah blah blah. Pick THE tire that works there, and level the playing field for everyone. This is the main reason i'm not going - i'm not shipping (out of MY pocket) 100 sets of tires, pink, red and M3, that may or may not work. And i'm definitely not buying M3's "just in case," considering there is 1 track in my Region that i might use M3's, sometime, maybe, but probably not.....

If Roar would go back to the old rule, it would be very easy to make everyone happy - make the spec tire the tire that works at the track. Or else you get into sweet issues like the 2004 Nats in Albuquerque - the exact wrong tire for the situation. The Blue Losi tires would have worked better/lasted a helluva lot longer than R3 Evil Spins.....
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Old 07-27-2006, 01:42 PM   #18
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I think spec shouldn't be the exact best tire for the track. Would be fun to see the Pro's and sponsored racers at a disadvantage say using Pink Step Pins.

The Pro's already have so many advantages over the average Joe.
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Old 07-27-2006, 02:02 PM   #19
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sposored drivers are pros because they stood out when they were average joes. and most of them usually won a big race with no sponsors before they were sponsored. its not the car or the hop up that makes them fast its there skill level. i think the mfgr. are on the right track if i like losi or pro line i know what tire i would take i wouldn't take some of both because so what if the other works slightly better they will both be extremely close. any disadvantage one tire or the other has would be compensated by the drivers skill. like is said earlier if the mfgr. are forced to stick to there tire and not switch brands it still furthers tire development as well. tires are the most expensive part of racing 1/10 scale because after 1 run there done $15 in 5 minutes. there are people like lars johnson who willactually buy 100 sets for a national as a average joe who can compete with that. i would much rather see the wins come down to driver skill than driver pocket book. imagine how many sets he would need if there wasn't a tire rule he is only talking about 3 tread designs.

this helps average joes it helps smaller companies like panther and it makes the racing more fair than its been in the past.

i think r/c needs to follow the lead of motorcross and a all factory class would be boring. who would want to watch carmichael stewart and reed be the only ones racing. its the privateers that do good that have the stories the great times and the fun coming home and saying i made the b-main or some pro was in there main. i for one would be glad to know that it was my driving skill that beat out the next guy than my pocket book.
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Old 07-27-2006, 03:02 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocket42
there are people like lars johnson who willactually buy 100 sets for a national as a average joe who can compete with that. i would much rather see the wins come down to driver skill than driver pocket book.
Actually, like i said - that's the reason i'm not going. I won't buy tires, especially M3's, 'just in case,' as i would have no use for them after the race. I still have R3's in the box that i bought for practice at the 2004 Nats, and i know of about 0 tracks that i would use them at.

And if you'd rather see the wins come out of skill than pocketbook, then you should be all for a Spec tire rule. This instantly eliminates the amount of money a guy can spend on Race tires, and puts ability above tire option.

Also -- my previous post was in argument to the issue prior to the Manufactures agreement. I'm glad to see they are doing this again this year for our National Championships.
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Old 07-27-2006, 03:27 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lars Johnson
Actually, like i said - that's the reason i'm not going. I won't buy tires, especially M3's, 'just in case,' as i would have no use for them after the race. I still have R3's in the box that i bought for practice at the 2004 Nats, and i know of about 0 tracks that i would use them at.

And if you'd rather see the wins come out of skill than pocketbook, then you should be all for a Spec tire rule. This instantly eliminates the amount of money a guy can spend on Race tires, and puts ability above tire option.

Also -- my previous post was in argument to the issue prior to the Manufactures agreement. I'm glad to see they are doing this again this year for our National Championships.

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Old 07-27-2006, 03:59 PM   #22
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I never understand when people say they want to see Francis and Maifeld win because of driving skill. That's IROC. We are a consumer driven industry, that means the "driver" isn't really what's important in a win it's the equipment. Yes we all have our favorite personalities, but in the end I want to buy something so at the track I win.

Throwing tires, the agreed most important item in racing, out of the equation STOPS tire development. And despite what they say, in the long run it stops. Look at TC racing. The single 2, and you can even say 3 tire manufacturers in the US no longer car to make them. No Pro-Line, no Losi. We have Takeoff, and SOrex. How much do either of those companies really support racing? Giving them out as spec tires and charging you ISN'T support, it gives you a price break. They have no teams testing, no sponsored races, just a SPEC tire.

That has helped the average racer how? We have 1-3 run tires, great. If rules were made to help the average guy they would be changed. Not to spec tires, but to they have to be run for all of qualifying, so tires would have to change to last...and that would save money.

All this saving money crap is just that. It comes down to money and funding. It's why Ferrari and Renault beat Minardi, but somehow Toyota (the largest F1 budget, can't win).

But both tire manufacturers fight to the death to make the best tire. Next year they have a spec tire, and Michellin said they didn't want to be a part of that because they wanted competition, and for that they gain the respect back from me they lost when they had the inferior tire at the USGP.

I don't know why as the people that PAY for their equipment that you don't want the people who are being paid to make things better doing their job or competition making things better. Spec tires stop developement, making a rule to switch to 4-cell because ESC or motors blow up is giving manufacturers a pass to come up with better solutions.

Pro's race to prove they have the best stuff, not because one guy is better.

Anybody who thinks because they have the same tires as Maifield and they'll be in the A main because of that is on something. In fact, if a local guy makes it to the C-Main I'll give them 2 years of the magazine, shirt, fuel bottle, stickers, and some other crap. It's nice we get to race with the pros, but lets be realistic, even if you drove THEIR car you'll be in the D. I know it's a harsh fact, but true.

teams can spend a week testing at a track with 2 guys and know what tires they have that work. Then post it for your team.
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Old 07-27-2006, 04:56 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DerekB
I never understand when people say they want to see Francis and Maifeld win because of driving skill. That's IROC. We are a consumer driven industry, that means the "driver" isn't really what's important in a win it's the equipment. Yes we all have our favorite personalities, but in the end I want to buy something so at the track I win.
See, Derek this is where i'd disagree with you. If this were the case, we'd all be running those old GM ASP speed controls with a Gyro in them to keep our rig straight. I dont want to rely on buying something to help me win, i'd rather be able to say "this weekend, the time i put in at the track really helped me get into the _ main." If it were all equipment, then there'd be no need to practice, which at the core of any sport/hobby, is the cornerstone.

And to me - Tire developement and testing belong at races like the Shootout, Cactus, Indoor Champs, etc etc, where the classes are seperated for those that have it, and those that dont quite yet... To me, it has no place at the race that determines what crew of racers will represent the US in the next World Championships.

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Old 07-27-2006, 05:07 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lars Johnson
See, Derek this is where i'd disagree with you. If this were the case, we'd all be running those old GM ASP speed controls with a Gyro in them to keep our rig straight. I dont want to rely on buying something to help me win, i'd rather be able to say "this weekend, the time i put in at the track really helped me get into the _ main." If it were all equipment, then there'd be no need to practice, which at the core of any sport/hobby, is the cornerstone.

And to me - Tire developement and testing belong at races like the Shootout, Cactus, Indoor Champs, etc etc, where the classes are seperated for those that have it, and those that dont quite yet... To me, it has no place at the race that determines what crew of racers will represent the US in the next World Championships.

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I never said was for driving aids, and electric nanny stuff, that's for beginners. I said I want products that give me an advantage because they were designed and tested to be. Why don't we all just run the same everything and we'll know who the best "driver" is? But we don't buy the drivers, we buy what they win with.

This stuff is short term thinking. It saves you a few hundred in shipping, but down the road you take away companies that support racing. If Panther wants to run at the Nats what do they do? They can't make a name for themselves in on-road and now we're one step away from keeping more out of off-road.

It's bad for the soul of the hobby.


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Old 07-27-2006, 05:07 PM   #25
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That has helped the average racer how? We have 1-3 run tires, great. If rules were made to help the average guy they would be changed. Not to spec tires, but to they have to be run for all of qualifying, so tires would have to change to last...and that would save money.
i completly agree with this as a rule.

i didn't think we were talking about roar making a spec tire rule, i thought we were talking about the mfgrs. making an agreement to run certain tires. the average joe can still go out and buy as many tires as he desires. and fly out to the track a week early and test endless tire foam combinations on his own. and he my find something better and gain an edge on the team.

the number one draw back to r/c racing and its popularity is its cost. many people would go out and race and support racing if they didn't have to spend 1500 on a "toy car". how many times have you seen people come out to the track and say wow those cars are cool how much do they cost, then they walk in to hobby shop and never come back. now i understand this is a national and not a club race and there is more on the line which means more expense. but in my opinion as someone who has traveled to national events i think it is a good move by the mfgr. it would not have been a good move for roar to force a spec tire. if i was going to this race i would feel comfortable buying 10 sets of tires and feeling like i could compete with someone who bought 100

basically i am for anything that lowers the price for the consumer and i think this is a good chance to lower prices as well as continue to further the development of r/c. like i said earlier this is a huge oppertunity for a company like panther to build a tire that out performs the selected tires from losi and pro line and boost there business.

i have seen families of racers that spend more on r/c racing than they would spend if they were racing certain classes of full scale cars. r/c cars are supposed to be a way people can experience real racing for less than real racing. why bother racing r/c if it costs as much as full scale.
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Old 07-27-2006, 05:15 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocket42
i completly agree with this as a rule.

i didn't think we were talking about roar making a spec tire rule, i thought we were talking about the mfgrs. making an agreement to run certain tires. the average joe can still go out and buy as many tires as he desires. and fly out to the track a week early and test endless tire foam combinations on his own. and he my find something better and gain an edge on the team.

the number one draw back to r/c racing and its popularity is its cost. many people would go out and race and support racing if they didn't have to spend 1500 on a "toy car". how many times have you seen people come out to the track and say wow those cars are cool how much do they cost, then they walk in to hobby shop and never come back. now i understand this is a national and not a club race and there is more on the line which means more expense. but in my opinion as someone who has traveled to national events i think it is a good move by the mfgr. it would not have been a good move for roar to force a spec tire. if i was going to this race i would feel comfortable buying 10 sets of tires and feeling like i could compete with someone who bought 100

basically i am for anything that lowers the price for the consumer and i think this is a good chance to lower prices as well as continue to further the development of r/c. like i said earlier this is a huge oppertunity for a company like panther to build a tire that out performs the selected tires from losi and pro line and boost there business.

i have seen families of racers that spend more on r/c racing than they would spend if they were racing certain classes of full scale cars. r/c cars are supposed to be a way people can experience real racing for less than real racing. why bother racing r/c if it costs as much as full scale.
It's racing. Racing cost money. RC is still the cheapest form of real racing out there. Ever go to a Kart race and say "Wow those are cool, how much?" and the reply is $5,000.

Nationals aren't a place for those on a limited budget, this is a place where you strive to make it to. I think there already are too many people at Nationals that don't belong, which makes people feel bad for them. Limit the entries to 100 or 150, make the entry $150 and puts some of the glamour back into regionals to qualify. That would help racing and "cost" since regionals are much cheaper than a nationals.
Nobody seems to cry when pros have ESCs you can't buy, motors they don't sell, foam they won't tell you about, special tire-cancer sauces. We just worry about bringing tires without foams to a high level race.

I stand by the short sighted, it's for me decisions being made.
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Old 07-27-2006, 05:24 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DerekB
It's racing. Racing cost money. RC is still the cheapest form of real racing out there. Ever go to a Kart race and say "Wow those are cool, how much?" and the reply is $5,000.

Nationals aren't a place for those on a limited budget, this is a place where you strive to make it to. I think there already are too many people at Nationals that don't belong, which makes people feel bad for them. Limit the entries to 100 or 150, make the entry $150 and puts some of the glamour back into regionals to qualify. That would help racing and "cost" since regionals are much cheaper than a nationals.
Nobody seems to cry when pros have ESCs you can't buy, motors they don't sell, foam they won't tell you about, special tire-cancer sauces. We just worry about bringing tires without foams to a high level race.

I stand by the short sighted, it's for me decisions being made.

All good points...but R/c as a whole seems to be slowing down (out here at least).....So I don't know what the answer is. I guess this the best way to be inclusive

I would hate to see a national that had 3 heats and that was it. $150 a class and thats how it would turn out.

No if you take this whole argument and apply to the Gas Nats...I think you're on to somthing
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Old 07-27-2006, 05:45 PM   #28
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the average peron is more likely to 5k on a go cart than 2k on a r/c car because you can actually drive a go cart and not control it from 50ft. i can tell you that my 8k dirtbike costs me less a month than to race my 1/8 3-4 times a month.

i understand that the cost of r/c has to do with the fact that things are usually not mass produced or they are expensive to manufactuer. so the only way to really lower the cost of racing is to increase the popularity (as you know the rtr market has heped greatly) if you take in inflation r/c racing is probably cheaper than its ever been for the quality of the kits you can now purchase. but if it is intended to grow the price still needs to come down.

i do agree with you derek that most people don't belong at a national but turning people away is not the answer. even supercross doesn't turn riders away. they have a race the day before or earlier in the day and riders have to qualify to run the heat races at a supercross. but joe blow can show up with a bike and try to race supercross.

r/c is gaining popularity with tv spots and a radio show and to keep the momentum going we need to promote less cost not more costs. even jay halsey went out of his way to say you can get started for 400-600 dollars in r/c that will bring people in.
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Old 07-27-2006, 08:18 PM   #29
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This is a tuff one, there is no perfect answer really, new stuff is cool, but....

The problem is for a manufacturer to develop a couple of new tire designs and ship enough to the race. Along with some of what works, some of what might work along with what they just made to the track for the entire team.

If they have 8 factory travel team drivers, that means 10 pairs of each front and 10 of each rear, in each design and each compound of everything for each driver. Potentially 10 designs(4 ft and 6 rear) and 3 compounds(counting the new one, )....Some math....


Fronts:10pr x 4 designs x3 compounds
Rears: 10 x 6 x 3
120 front tires for each driver and 180 rears for each driver....x8

2400 pairs of tires, or 4800 tires!!! For each major event(10 or so a year?)
Shipping $1200, tires themselves WAY more!

Who pays for that........Customers in the long run.

For the majority of the industry this is about fun on the weekends, competing and hanging out with racing buddies, not the latest technology.

If the latest tires would cost $30 a pair(rather then $15 as of now) for 2w how exactly does this help the sport?
Does dad bring junior out for a fun filled race weekend with the new toy car willing to spend a couple hundred on tires and wheels alone?

Sometimes slowing technology helps the sport survive at the local level!



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Old 07-27-2006, 08:26 PM   #30
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Consider though, if your tires costed $30 a pair, but lets say they had more grip and lasted twice as long as the tires you have now. Can't see any problem with that.

The ideal solution would be to have a factory class with no tire limits, and a sportman class with a "run all qualifiers tire" regulation to save the guys who actually buy their tires. That would give them an ultra competitive test bed, and a racing class where tire wear and grip are both very crucial.
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