Electric 4wd
05-26-2006, 07:57 AM
#76
Originally Posted by HVAC25000
Personally, I'd rather pay the extra 125 and get a carbon fibre and aluminum vehicle from an american company instead of a plastic one from asia.
Uhh, I think this contradicts all of your other posts.
05-26-2006, 08:24 AM
#77
My post on 4wd cars from about 3 months ago....
"If you're looking to get into 4wd, do you have options.... Of course, that's what makes this class so interesting right now (besides the fact that they are just plain awesome to drive). I'll admit I'm biased (see sig.), but here's a hopefully objective run-through of the current 4wd offers:
Team Losi XX4: This car was revolutionary when it came out in 1996/1997. It (swept?) won the 1996 ROAR mod nat's while still in prototype form and went on to win numerous US and European championships and 2 IFMAR world championships. The latest big victory I believe was the Eruo's in 2005. It is well known for its amazing suspension, as it breezes through rough stuff and takes to jumps like it has wings. It features a 3 belt drivetrain (sealed) with a dual slipper clutch and front adjustable one-way clicker unit. Losi recently re-released (the car had been out of production for several years) the Worlds Edition of the XX4, so parts and cars are pretty plentiful. The front arms can be fragile. You can find used xx4's at many hobby stores and usually one or two on ebay.
Team Losi XXX4: Why'd Losi discontinue the XX4 originaly? They made what they thought was a better car, and in many respects is. The XXX4 also has numerous national championships and a IFMAR title to its credit. The XXX4 is has a single-belt driveline (sealed) and is one of the fastest cars in a strait line. The smooth track handling of this car is very good, but if the track starts to break up or on harsh landings the car can bounce around and be a handful. It had several durability issues when it was first released, but updated parts (new front arms, shocktowers, and chassis) have pretty much made it one of the most durable 4wheelers out there. The drivetrain is good enough that several Losi team drivers have been known to cut every other tooth out of the belt to help eliminate friction.
X Factory X - 5: A small compnay based in Ohio, they saw the XX4 and XXX4 and wanted to have a combination of the best parts of both cars... so they made it. Known as the X - 5 ("double" x plus "triple" x = five) this car combines the single belt drivetrain of the XXX4 with the suspension package and weight distribution of the XX4. The car is offered as a converstion kit for either the XX4 or the XXX4, or you can buy an entire car. The car won the 2005 Roar Mod nats and has several top 5 finishes at major off-road races around the country in the last year - with only one "top" driver, Greg Hodapp, on the team. It is starting to pick up results in Europe as well. This car, like the XX4, has great rough track handling and super acceleration. Parts aren't a problem as most of the parts you commonly break (arms, shocktowers, etc) are Losi. I personally drive an X - 5 and absolutely love the car.
Kyosho ZX-5: A newer car on the market, this is the first shaft drive car on my list here. I haven't driven one, so most of what I know comes from looking at them and talking to others who have driven them. The car has a moulded chassis with a single aluminum shaft down the center; the motor and electronics are along the right of the car with the batteries on the left side. There are some weak points out of the box, but a few aluminum braces and the car becomes pretty tough. The car comes from the box with several front drive options as well as all the usual chassis/set-up adjustments and is available for a bit less $$ than the other top-level 4wheelers, so it has a great value. The car has yet to pick up any major wins (Has it won in Japan? I don't think so, but someone can correct me there); but it shows lots of promise.
Yokomo MR-4BCX: This car is going to hit shelves at the end of the Month, and the prototypes have shown a lot of good things. It features a carbon fibre dual deck chassis with a twin belt drivetrain (exposed). The car has a weight distribution similar to the XX4 and seems to share the excellent rough track handling. The Yokomo team had good results at the recent IFMAR worlds and has picked up several large wins in both Japan and Europe. We will have to see how the car does (and how well it is supported) after it is released.
JConcepts BJ4 (and worlds edition): JConcepts is another small company who saw something and decided to make it: they created the BJ4 very loosely off the Associated TC3 shaft design (the car is almost entirely ground-up new; don't consider it a "touring car conversion). Released in 2004, the BJ4 features a dual deck carbon fibre chassis with an alunimum shaft drive down the center, motor and electronics on the right, and battery on the left. The very first prototypes (about a week in existance) were driven to the 'B' main at the 2003 IFMAR Worlds, and the car has had great success since then. It was known to have very weak front arms, something which has since been revised. In 2005 JConcepts released the Worlds Editon BJ4, which may as well have been a whole new car. Still a carbon fibre chassis, the WE has the spur gear central on the car with shafts running front and rear. The batteries became saddle packs sitting in the back (similar to the XX4 and yokomo), and the motor got moved toward the front. This car won the 2005 IFMAR World Championships, so you know its a very capable performer. With the new front arms and bulkhead, this is an excellent car - if you can get your hands on one.
Predator X 10: Based in England, the Predator car has been around for along time. The best word to describe this car is unique: it has a completely differnt look and style about it than anything else out there. This car has a molded chassis, is shaft driven with the motor in the back left, front saddle packs, inboard shocks, a front wing, wind-tunnel tested body... it is stacked. The predator car has been around a while, in and out and in differnt versions, for a long time. An early car was raced very successfully in the early 90's by none other than Brian Kinwald. The latest version seems to be making a bit of a comeback - it seems much more prevailant and supported than previous versions. While it is a very potent performer, it is known to have weak spots (steering, arms), and you pay for the uniqueness in $$ and by having to order almost everything - even the wheels - from the comany itself.
Academy SB Sport: This car takes a whole different approach than most of the others to 4wd racing: while everything else is pricey, all-out performance kits, the SB Sport is a much, much cheaper car that with some upgrades can be competitive. The car is a shaft driven with a double deck chassis. This car hasn't won any big races, but it doesn't have a "factory team" per se racing and developing it. With some upgrades, this car is incredibly durable, and is probably the best choice for someone just getting into RC who wants a 4wheeler.
Durango: The Durango is a very unique shaft driven car made in Germany... that no one can buy. Just about everything on the car is hand made buy a man in Germany and campaigned by a select few drivers. Most notably it has several big wins in Europe and won the IFMAR World's Warm Up last year. This is a very unique car, but as you can't buy them, there's not much to talk about.
Schumacher: Schumacher used to make very competitive electric 4wd cars, but has not come out with anything in several years. They put together a prototype Cat 4k for a show in Europe last year. The car had a lot of people very interesting, but so far there has been no real word or action on producing the car. There are people who comeptitively race the Cat 3000, but the car has not won anything big (to my knowldege) in recent years.
That about sums it up - I'm sure there are a few cars I left off the list, but those are the major 4wd cars I could think of. I hope its helpful. As for me, my very first RC car was a XX4 - I didn't race novice first but rather 4wd mod. I loved that car, and in fact it is still built and sitting on my shelf at home. I bought and built a XXX4 when they came out and stuck with that car through almost all of its "growing pains". I found I could run very fast with the XXX4, but it was hard work. Whereas the XX4 was fun to drive, easy to toss into corners and throttle-steer out, I had to be right on the line, drive absolutely perfect with the XXX4. With the X - 5 I really feel I've found the best of both worlds - its easy to drive and will accelerate with any XXX4 you want."
I've seen bushless systems put into all of these cars. Some are a little bit tighter than others, but it always can be done. I agree with ApexSpeed - any of the major cars here can be competitive. And if you find out you don't like the car you choose, you can always sell it and try another.
"If you're looking to get into 4wd, do you have options.... Of course, that's what makes this class so interesting right now (besides the fact that they are just plain awesome to drive). I'll admit I'm biased (see sig.), but here's a hopefully objective run-through of the current 4wd offers:
Team Losi XX4: This car was revolutionary when it came out in 1996/1997. It (swept?) won the 1996 ROAR mod nat's while still in prototype form and went on to win numerous US and European championships and 2 IFMAR world championships. The latest big victory I believe was the Eruo's in 2005. It is well known for its amazing suspension, as it breezes through rough stuff and takes to jumps like it has wings. It features a 3 belt drivetrain (sealed) with a dual slipper clutch and front adjustable one-way clicker unit. Losi recently re-released (the car had been out of production for several years) the Worlds Edition of the XX4, so parts and cars are pretty plentiful. The front arms can be fragile. You can find used xx4's at many hobby stores and usually one or two on ebay.
Team Losi XXX4: Why'd Losi discontinue the XX4 originaly? They made what they thought was a better car, and in many respects is. The XXX4 also has numerous national championships and a IFMAR title to its credit. The XXX4 is has a single-belt driveline (sealed) and is one of the fastest cars in a strait line. The smooth track handling of this car is very good, but if the track starts to break up or on harsh landings the car can bounce around and be a handful. It had several durability issues when it was first released, but updated parts (new front arms, shocktowers, and chassis) have pretty much made it one of the most durable 4wheelers out there. The drivetrain is good enough that several Losi team drivers have been known to cut every other tooth out of the belt to help eliminate friction.
X Factory X - 5: A small compnay based in Ohio, they saw the XX4 and XXX4 and wanted to have a combination of the best parts of both cars... so they made it. Known as the X - 5 ("double" x plus "triple" x = five) this car combines the single belt drivetrain of the XXX4 with the suspension package and weight distribution of the XX4. The car is offered as a converstion kit for either the XX4 or the XXX4, or you can buy an entire car. The car won the 2005 Roar Mod nats and has several top 5 finishes at major off-road races around the country in the last year - with only one "top" driver, Greg Hodapp, on the team. It is starting to pick up results in Europe as well. This car, like the XX4, has great rough track handling and super acceleration. Parts aren't a problem as most of the parts you commonly break (arms, shocktowers, etc) are Losi. I personally drive an X - 5 and absolutely love the car.
Kyosho ZX-5: A newer car on the market, this is the first shaft drive car on my list here. I haven't driven one, so most of what I know comes from looking at them and talking to others who have driven them. The car has a moulded chassis with a single aluminum shaft down the center; the motor and electronics are along the right of the car with the batteries on the left side. There are some weak points out of the box, but a few aluminum braces and the car becomes pretty tough. The car comes from the box with several front drive options as well as all the usual chassis/set-up adjustments and is available for a bit less $$ than the other top-level 4wheelers, so it has a great value. The car has yet to pick up any major wins (Has it won in Japan? I don't think so, but someone can correct me there); but it shows lots of promise.
Yokomo MR-4BCX: This car is going to hit shelves at the end of the Month, and the prototypes have shown a lot of good things. It features a carbon fibre dual deck chassis with a twin belt drivetrain (exposed). The car has a weight distribution similar to the XX4 and seems to share the excellent rough track handling. The Yokomo team had good results at the recent IFMAR worlds and has picked up several large wins in both Japan and Europe. We will have to see how the car does (and how well it is supported) after it is released.
JConcepts BJ4 (and worlds edition): JConcepts is another small company who saw something and decided to make it: they created the BJ4 very loosely off the Associated TC3 shaft design (the car is almost entirely ground-up new; don't consider it a "touring car conversion). Released in 2004, the BJ4 features a dual deck carbon fibre chassis with an alunimum shaft drive down the center, motor and electronics on the right, and battery on the left. The very first prototypes (about a week in existance) were driven to the 'B' main at the 2003 IFMAR Worlds, and the car has had great success since then. It was known to have very weak front arms, something which has since been revised. In 2005 JConcepts released the Worlds Editon BJ4, which may as well have been a whole new car. Still a carbon fibre chassis, the WE has the spur gear central on the car with shafts running front and rear. The batteries became saddle packs sitting in the back (similar to the XX4 and yokomo), and the motor got moved toward the front. This car won the 2005 IFMAR World Championships, so you know its a very capable performer. With the new front arms and bulkhead, this is an excellent car - if you can get your hands on one.
Predator X 10: Based in England, the Predator car has been around for along time. The best word to describe this car is unique: it has a completely differnt look and style about it than anything else out there. This car has a molded chassis, is shaft driven with the motor in the back left, front saddle packs, inboard shocks, a front wing, wind-tunnel tested body... it is stacked. The predator car has been around a while, in and out and in differnt versions, for a long time. An early car was raced very successfully in the early 90's by none other than Brian Kinwald. The latest version seems to be making a bit of a comeback - it seems much more prevailant and supported than previous versions. While it is a very potent performer, it is known to have weak spots (steering, arms), and you pay for the uniqueness in $$ and by having to order almost everything - even the wheels - from the comany itself.
Academy SB Sport: This car takes a whole different approach than most of the others to 4wd racing: while everything else is pricey, all-out performance kits, the SB Sport is a much, much cheaper car that with some upgrades can be competitive. The car is a shaft driven with a double deck chassis. This car hasn't won any big races, but it doesn't have a "factory team" per se racing and developing it. With some upgrades, this car is incredibly durable, and is probably the best choice for someone just getting into RC who wants a 4wheeler.
Durango: The Durango is a very unique shaft driven car made in Germany... that no one can buy. Just about everything on the car is hand made buy a man in Germany and campaigned by a select few drivers. Most notably it has several big wins in Europe and won the IFMAR World's Warm Up last year. This is a very unique car, but as you can't buy them, there's not much to talk about.
Schumacher: Schumacher used to make very competitive electric 4wd cars, but has not come out with anything in several years. They put together a prototype Cat 4k for a show in Europe last year. The car had a lot of people very interesting, but so far there has been no real word or action on producing the car. There are people who comeptitively race the Cat 3000, but the car has not won anything big (to my knowldege) in recent years.
That about sums it up - I'm sure there are a few cars I left off the list, but those are the major 4wd cars I could think of. I hope its helpful. As for me, my very first RC car was a XX4 - I didn't race novice first but rather 4wd mod. I loved that car, and in fact it is still built and sitting on my shelf at home. I bought and built a XXX4 when they came out and stuck with that car through almost all of its "growing pains". I found I could run very fast with the XXX4, but it was hard work. Whereas the XX4 was fun to drive, easy to toss into corners and throttle-steer out, I had to be right on the line, drive absolutely perfect with the XXX4. With the X - 5 I really feel I've found the best of both worlds - its easy to drive and will accelerate with any XXX4 you want."
I've seen bushless systems put into all of these cars. Some are a little bit tighter than others, but it always can be done. I agree with ApexSpeed - any of the major cars here can be competitive. And if you find out you don't like the car you choose, you can always sell it and try another.
05-26-2006, 10:09 AM
#78
Updated info for the ZX-5:
The newer Lazer kits have very beefed up gearboxes and pivot braces, made from different material. They're MUCH tougher than the old parts...the original stuff would break really easy, but the newer stuff is pretty tough.
I'd still do the aluminum stuff and make it never break, but I've seen people run the kits right out of the box with no aluminum braces...no breaks.
The newer Lazer kits have very beefed up gearboxes and pivot braces, made from different material. They're MUCH tougher than the old parts...the original stuff would break really easy, but the newer stuff is pretty tough.
I'd still do the aluminum stuff and make it never break, but I've seen people run the kits right out of the box with no aluminum braces...no breaks.
05-26-2006, 10:47 AM
#80
Tech Rookie
The SB V2 is a malconstrution, but the old SB-Sport is the money worth.
I built an 4 WD Truck with the same layout and took the Diffs from Academy RT4GP.
I built an 4 WD Truck with the same layout and took the Diffs from Academy RT4GP.
05-26-2006, 11:29 AM
#81
I know that when I race with my SB pro my car could hang with anyone on the track. When Im driving good (rairly) I can hang with the BJ4's and losi's at my track and there all dialed racers the only problem in my case is that I dont get to go racing enough because I have to drive an hour and a half to get to my track and I take the most difficult and time consuming major at my college which means I get to race probably once during a semester. If you dont want to break anything I would definatly say get the SB pro I have never broken anything during a race and I have had some narly crashes. The only problem Ive had during a race is the motor wires coming undone and that was because I forgot to change the brushes and the motor overheated.
The biggest factor in a races outcome is usualy a driver. Getting the right car is all a matter of drivers prefrences. I prefer shaft drive and im on a buget so I bought the SB and its completely exceded my expectations.
shaft drive,durabilty,bang for the buck,good handling- SB-pro
shaft drive, handling and uniqueness- Pred X-10
shaft drive,effeciency, handling - BJ4
belt drive , smooth track handling, parts availability, - XXX-4
I've nver had experience with the kyosho,XX-4,X-5 so I couldnt really tell you.
Mangokiwi- Where did you get your chassis components they look like quality stuff.
The biggest factor in a races outcome is usualy a driver. Getting the right car is all a matter of drivers prefrences. I prefer shaft drive and im on a buget so I bought the SB and its completely exceded my expectations.
shaft drive,durabilty,bang for the buck,good handling- SB-pro
shaft drive, handling and uniqueness- Pred X-10
shaft drive,effeciency, handling - BJ4
belt drive , smooth track handling, parts availability, - XXX-4
I've nver had experience with the kyosho,XX-4,X-5 so I couldnt really tell you.
Mangokiwi- Where did you get your chassis components they look like quality stuff.
05-26-2006, 03:19 PM
#82
Tech Master
Originally Posted by Turbo Joe
Looks like the ROAR minumum weight for a 4wd buggy is 1613g...mine is 1523g. 
Still waiting to hear anybody else's weights...
Still waiting to hear anybody else's weights...
great write-up paul!
05-26-2006, 04:09 PM
#83
Uhhh...I didn't forget...I said I was running a 4800 peak, right? Are they making a 4800Nimh now?
It's not so hard to add and subtract the difference b/w various batteries, ESCs and other accessories. At least I listed mine...LOL...what does your weigh?
It's not so hard to add and subtract the difference b/w various batteries, ESCs and other accessories. At least I listed mine...LOL...what does your weigh?
05-26-2006, 05:19 PM
#85
Originally Posted by killer89
the differnece between lipo and nimh and the novak SS and something like a quantum is about equal. Ill weigh my brushed one tomight...
05-26-2006, 05:23 PM
#86
Tech Master
joe i was just paying around. i dont have a scale to weigh my car and its being rebuilt right now
05-26-2006, 06:42 PM
#87
Tech Adept
Originally Posted by HVAC25000
If Xfactory lowered it's price by 100, then I'd get one, but right now it appears the BJ4 is a better vehicle for a lower price. Xfactory is charging full retail for the Losi parts in their kit.
Did you even bother to look at all the links I gave you?
05-26-2006, 07:15 PM
#89
Tech Master
joe i know what you mean, lately most people are all uptight and pissed.
