4LikesAutomated throttle control and high-level racing
01-31-2021, 12:58 PM
#1
Automated throttle control and high-level racing
Do any national or international organizations or federations prohibit the use of automated throttle control intervention - such as automatic drag brake, punch control, acceleration smoothing, braking smoothing, etc?
If so, do you have any idea where I can find the documentation on it?
If so, do you have any idea where I can find the documentation on it?
Last edited by JeffEmbracedDC; 01-31-2021 at 01:23 PM.
01-31-2021, 02:31 PM
#2
Suspended
Originally Posted by JeffEmbracedDC
Do any national or international organizations or federations prohibit the use of automated throttle control intervention - such as automatic drag brake, punch control, acceleration smoothing, braking smoothing, etc?
"The use of traction control sensing devices, active suspension devices, and steering control devices aided by gyroscopes or accelerometers (G-force sensors) of any kind is strictly prohibited. Sensors may be used for the purpose of passive data recording but not for adjusting the performance of the vehicle while in motion." IFMARs rules are a bit better defined but also more restrictive.
Originally Posted by JeffEmbracedDC
If so, do you have any idea where I can find the documentation on it?
01-31-2021, 04:56 PM
#3
Tech Apprentice
From what I can see effectively open loop controls are allowed but anything with a feedback loop to adjust the control is not allowed.
For example configuring your ESC or radio to apply X% drag break on zero throttle is open loop. A control to apply drag break when rear wheel speed is X% > front wheel speed would be closed loop because it is measuring behavior of the car and using that to determine if a control is applied or not.
Another example would be channel blending. As far as I can tell its legal to configure your radio to reduce throttle as steering is increased. However using a gyro to detect that the amount of steering applied is causing slip and using that data to reduce throttle is not allowed.
Happy to be corrected on any of these points as they are just based on my reading of the rules.
For example configuring your ESC or radio to apply X% drag break on zero throttle is open loop. A control to apply drag break when rear wheel speed is X% > front wheel speed would be closed loop because it is measuring behavior of the car and using that to determine if a control is applied or not.
Another example would be channel blending. As far as I can tell its legal to configure your radio to reduce throttle as steering is increased. However using a gyro to detect that the amount of steering applied is causing slip and using that data to reduce throttle is not allowed.
Happy to be corrected on any of these points as they are just based on my reading of the rules.
02-01-2021, 12:49 AM
#4
Thanks to both of you - that's exactly what I was looking for.
I'm considering experimenting with automatic leveling, pitching, and whipping to improve landing on jumps, and. Definitely requires closed-loop feedback systems accelerometers, gyros, etc.
Looks like it'll only be for open classes at clubs
I'm considering experimenting with automatic leveling, pitching, and whipping to improve landing on jumps, and. Definitely requires closed-loop feedback systems accelerometers, gyros, etc.
Looks like it'll only be for open classes at clubs
02-05-2021, 03:57 AM
#5
Originally Posted by JeffEmbracedDC
Thanks to both of you - that's exactly what I was looking for.
I'm considering experimenting with automatic leveling, pitching, and whipping to improve landing on jumps, and. Definitely requires closed-loop feedback systems accelerometers, gyros, etc.
Looks like it'll only be for open classes at clubs
I'm considering experimenting with automatic leveling, pitching, and whipping to improve landing on jumps, and. Definitely requires closed-loop feedback systems accelerometers, gyros, etc.
Looks like it'll only be for open classes at clubs
02-05-2021, 04:49 AM
#6
Originally Posted by JeffEmbracedDC
Thanks to both of you - that's exactly what I was looking for.
I'm considering experimenting with automatic leveling, pitching, and whipping to improve landing on jumps, and. Definitely requires closed-loop feedback systems accelerometers, gyros, etc.
Looks like it'll only be for open classes at clubs
I'm considering experimenting with automatic leveling, pitching, and whipping to improve landing on jumps, and. Definitely requires closed-loop feedback systems accelerometers, gyros, etc.
Looks like it'll only be for open classes at clubs
02-05-2021, 06:32 AM
#7
Originally Posted by abailey21
club level wont allow it either, even in open classes.
I've bolted an RC10T and an RC10GT together lengthwise and ran it as a single car in open class in Minnesota and Texas.
Last edited by JeffEmbracedDC; 02-05-2021 at 06:34 AM. Reason: F
02-05-2021, 09:41 AM
#8
Originally Posted by JeffEmbracedDC
Fair - though you might be underestimating the "openness" of some clubs I've bolted an RC10T and an RC10GT together lengthwise and ran it as a single car in open class in Minnesota and Texas.
I've bolted an RC10T and an RC10GT together lengthwise and ran it as a single car in open class in Minnesota and Texas.To do what you are proposing (with the throttle automation) would require something like a 9dof IMU, forward and downward facing terrain sensors, suspension position transmitters, wheel speed sensors, steering angle sensors, something to process all of the sensor information, and proprietary software to tie it all together to augment steering and throttle inputs. You would also have to program the car to each track because different traction levels will change how the car reacts to the automated inputs and there will likely be spots on the track where you wouldn't want throttle augmentation. That means programming in exclusion zones and adjusting augmentation gain any time you go to a different track.
Why do you want to automate throttle inputs for jumps?
Last edited by waitwhat; 02-05-2021 at 10:18 AM.
02-06-2021, 10:46 AM
#9
Let rc be rc...
Originally Posted by waitwhat
Why did you bolt two trucks together and how successful were you in making a faster race truck?
To do what you are proposing (with the throttle automation) would require something like a 9dof IMU, forward and downward facing terrain sensors, suspension position transmitters, wheel speed sensors, steering angle sensors, something to process all of the sensor information, and proprietary software to tie it all together to augment steering and throttle inputs. You would also have to program the car to each track because different traction levels will change how the car reacts to the automated inputs and there will likely be spots on the track where you wouldn't want throttle augmentation. That means programming in exclusion zones and adjusting augmentation gain any time you go to a different track.
Why do you want to automate throttle inputs for jumps?
To do what you are proposing (with the throttle automation) would require something like a 9dof IMU, forward and downward facing terrain sensors, suspension position transmitters, wheel speed sensors, steering angle sensors, something to process all of the sensor information, and proprietary software to tie it all together to augment steering and throttle inputs. You would also have to program the car to each track because different traction levels will change how the car reacts to the automated inputs and there will likely be spots on the track where you wouldn't want throttle augmentation. That means programming in exclusion zones and adjusting augmentation gain any time you go to a different track.
Why do you want to automate throttle inputs for jumps?
you can apply your automation to say... a rc lawn mower...
02-06-2021, 01:43 PM
#10
Originally Posted by kawasaki161
Yes, there are some restrictions, as per the ROAR Rulebook point 5.2.3:
"The use of traction control sensing devices, active suspension devices, and steering control devices aided by gyroscopes or accelerometers (G-force sensors) of any kind is strictly prohibited. Sensors may be used for the purpose of passive data recording but not for adjusting the performance of the vehicle while in motion." IFMARs rules are a bit better defined but also more restrictive.
....
"The use of traction control sensing devices, active suspension devices, and steering control devices aided by gyroscopes or accelerometers (G-force sensors) of any kind is strictly prohibited. Sensors may be used for the purpose of passive data recording but not for adjusting the performance of the vehicle while in motion." IFMARs rules are a bit better defined but also more restrictive.
....
02-06-2021, 02:29 PM
#11
Originally Posted by waitwhat
Why did you bolt two trucks together and how successful were you in making a faster race truck?
To do what you are proposing (with the throttle automation) would require something like a 9dof IMU, forward and downward facing terrain sensors, suspension position transmitters, wheel speed sensors, steering angle sensors, something to process all of the sensor information, and proprietary software to tie it all together to augment steering and throttle inputs. You would also have to program the car to each track because different traction levels will change how the car reacts to the automated inputs and there will likely be spots on the track where you wouldn't want throttle augmentation. That means programming in exclusion zones and adjusting augmentation gain any time you go to a different track.
Why do you want to automate throttle inputs for jumps?
To do what you are proposing (with the throttle automation) would require something like a 9dof IMU, forward and downward facing terrain sensors, suspension position transmitters, wheel speed sensors, steering angle sensors, something to process all of the sensor information, and proprietary software to tie it all together to augment steering and throttle inputs. You would also have to program the car to each track because different traction levels will change how the car reacts to the automated inputs and there will likely be spots on the track where you wouldn't want throttle augmentation. That means programming in exclusion zones and adjusting augmentation gain any time you go to a different track.
Why do you want to automate throttle inputs for jumps?
02-10-2021, 07:11 PM
#12
Originally Posted by Dave H
Anybody else remember why those rules came about, or know more of the story? I think it's because Schumacher showed up at a Worlds with a buggy equipped with traction control. I don't believe it was allowed to run, then the rules were added. I tried searching but haven't refound the stories.
I found some pictures here:
Ray
02-11-2021, 12:33 PM
#13
Originally Posted by ray_munday
The event was the 1993 Ifmar Worlds in Basildon, England. I wasnt there but recall reading the stories. LRP developed a trc system which was run in practice (Jurgen Lautenbach from LRP was racing Schumacher at the time) but it was then banned before qualifying started.
I found some pictures here:
https://www.facebook.com/lrp.cc/post...7353523001183/
Ray
I found some pictures here:
https://www.facebook.com/lrp.cc/post...7353523001183/
Ray
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