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2wd stock buggy for carpet - recommendations

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2wd stock buggy for carpet - recommendations

Old 10-12-2020, 05:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Billy Kelly
Used Xray XB2 complete. For $320 just needed a battery and receiver.

That's a pretty good deal! What kind of ESC and servo.
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Old 10-12-2020, 06:07 PM
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Originally Posted by OffRoadJunkie
That's a pretty good deal! What kind of ESC and servo.

Tekin. Seller had the track close 3 months after he started racing. With no other options he just got out of the hobby. All of my off road race vehicles are used. One thing Iíve found is that when people get out of racing. They just want the stuff gone. I had to borrow the wing for clay track over the weekend. Carpet is starting back in November.
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Old 10-12-2020, 06:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Billy Kelly

Tekin. Seller had the track close 3 months after he started racing. With no other options he just got out of the hobby. All of my off road race vehicles are used. One thing Iíve found is that when people get out of racing. They just want the stuff gone. I had to borrow the wing for clay track over the weekend. Carpet is starting back in November.

Absolutely nothing wrong with that. If you were to buy that motor, ESC, and servo used, you would be paying at least $175 for all three. I would have gone used, but I really enjoy building them. When I look at spare parts, I will look for a hardly used vehicle. I look for the ones with the hop-ups I want. I just purchased that ESC and Motor used. With shipping, I paid about $110 for them. I got the motor from this Marketplace.
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Old 10-12-2020, 06:57 PM
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Originally Posted by OffRoadJunkie
Absolutely nothing wrong with that. If you were to buy that motor, ESC, and servo used, you would be paying at least $175 for all three. I would have gone used, but I really enjoy building them. When I look at spare parts, I will look for a hardly used vehicle. I look for the ones with the hop-ups I want. I just purchased that ESC and Motor used. With shipping, I paid about $110 for them. I got the motor from this Marketplace.
Iím mixed on the building part. Iíve built a few, but tend to be a procrastinator on kits. When I decided to try carpet I had limited chances. Didnít want to wait on getting around to building something.
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Old 10-12-2020, 07:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Billy Kelly
Iím mixed on the building part. Iíve built a few, but tend to be a procrastinator on kits. When I decided to try carpet I had limited chances. Didnít want to wait on getting around to building something.
That's how I am with my bashers. I never had the time to build them, but with my racing vehicles, I would always build the first one so I have an exact understanding on how they go together so I know what adjustments can be made.
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Old 10-12-2020, 08:13 PM
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Originally Posted by OffRoadJunkie
That's how I am with my bashers. I never had the time to build them, but with my racing vehicles, I would always build the first one so I have an exact understanding on how they go together so I know what adjustments can be made.
I better at adapting to other peopleís setups. With carpet racing, I had to choose between races or practice. Unfortunately, I canít do both. Itís too far and work schedule conflicted with the track hours. On clay I can do both. But found the 3 I bought worked as they came. We see if number 4 continues the streak possibly this week.

If I bought new, Iíd be only running 2 classes at most.
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Old 10-13-2020, 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by OffRoadJunkie
Impressive amount of racing time. I've been into RC cars since 1982. Bought my Mauri Big Bear in 1984. I've been around the racing scene since 1985 when I first saw Jay Halsey win at the Ranch Pit Shop in Del Mar, where I grew up. At that point, I started racing my uncles Scorpion out there. Talk about body roll... In 1987, I bought my own racer, the Ultima. I chose it because it had better suspension, which I was able to tell because it had longer arms. From there, the list goes on. I have been around RC cars ever since. Around 1995 is when I didn't compere on a regular basis. I Didn't race at the tracks, but I still ran them and tinkered with them. I had my subscription to RC modeler until RC Car Action came out. have been in a couple ROAR events, but I I had to work for a living and didn't have the time or money.

However, this isn't a rooster fight, just a clarification. What I really want to know is what brands you have legitimately raced and prefer? I am not biased to any brand. I have owned and legitimately raced Associated, Losi, and Kyosho. I think the sexiest cars out there are by Xray. I would get one of those, but I would have to give up my real dirt bike racing due to how much they cost. RC is not my only hobby, it's just my least expensive hobby. If I was to go out and buy an ST, I would get the new Schumacher. I honestly don't know why this is a conversation. Gullwing arms and straight arms are like RC brands. It's a drivers preference. I have never measured clearance between carpet and clay setups. I race on clay. I would swap out the arms and try the difference, but I don't see a reason to. The way my car is now is quite comfortable. if you want to know the difference is ride height, I attached a picture of the B6.2 and the B6.2D. I'll tell you this, they look fast just sitting there.

By the way, the shock mounts on the RB7 stay the same. The bend comes after the shock. Therefore the angle on the shock doesn't change with you swamp out the arms.



Seems you don't understand that if you draw a straight line from the outer hinge pin to the inner hinge pin and the shock mount point sits below this straight line you have gullwing arms. The RB7 gullwing arms are not flat.

If you isolate everything by changing the length of the shock and only change between gullwing and flat arms you are only changing the rising rate. Rising rate adjusts how much leverage the wheel/suspension arm has to compress the shock.

If you go the route of the AE car and pair a shorter shock tower with the gullwing arms and taller shock tower with the flat arms switching to a gullwing changes the rising rate and center of gravity because the lower mounting point for the shock is below the line and the shocks sit lower because of the shorter tower. These specific changes impact the handling of the car in a useful enough way that AE integrated the most useful geometry to their surface specific car.

It's nice that you have paid close attention to the hobby, but you don't gain first hand experience developing a car that way. Most recently I started with a 22 3.0 (when that was the newest car available from TLR) and never even used the TLR gearbox. I drove and developed that car until TLR came out with the 5.0, beating 22 4.0s all along the way. If I were to go back and highlight all the parts I replaced in the 22 3.0 owners manual 75-80% would be highlighted.

Spend about 8-10 months racing the same car twice a week, at multiple different tracks, while developing new parts that you have to back to back validate test on a practice day at least once a week. This is all while having a full time job. I have no kids so I have discretionary time and income. Developing a car and validating that you made it faster is just an outlet for my engineering creativity.

Last edited by waitwhat; 10-13-2020 at 10:47 AM.
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Old 10-13-2020, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by waitwhat
Seems you don't understand that if you draw a straight line from the outer hinge pin to the inner hinge pin and the shock mount point sits below this straight line you have gullwing arms. The RB7 gullwing arms are not flat.

If you isolate everything by changing the length of the shock and only change between gullwing and flat arms you are only changing the rising rate. Rising rate adjusts how much leverage the wheel/suspension arm has to compress the shock.

If you go the route of the AE car and pair a shorter shock tower with the gullwing arms and taller shock tower with the flat arms switching to a gullwing changes the rising rate and center of gravity because the lower mounting point for the shock is below the line and the shocks sit lower because of the shorter tower. These specific changes impact the handling of the car in a useful enough way that AE integrated the most useful geometry to their surface specific car.

It's nice that you have paid close attention to the hobby, but you don't gain first hand experience developing a car that way. Most recently I started with a 22 3.0 (when that was the newest car available from TLR) and never even used the TLR gearbox. I drove and developed that car until TLR came out with the 5.0, beating 22 4.0s all along the way. If I were to go back and highlight all the parts I replaced in the 22 3.0 owners manual 75-80% would be highlighted.

Spend about 8-10 months racing the same car twice a week, at multiple different tracks, while developing new parts that you have to back to back validate test on a practice day at least once a week. This is all while having a full time job. I have no kids so I have discretionary time and income. Developing a car and validating that you made it faster is just an outlet for my engineering creativity.

I wish I had to time to make all the mods I wanted. I have a wife, two kids, and, up until this last April, I had a 10-12 hr a day, 6 days a week, job. I just now have time to enjoy life. I just bought us all new motocross bikes and quads, so there goes all my RC money.

When I raced, I would make it to the track with about 30-45min before the races start. I would only have time to make the most basic adjustments. I was pretty quick and accurate with my adjustments. I had to learn how to make all my own adjustments on my own. My dad thought RC cars were over priced toys and I was wasting my life away while tinkering on them. I use to stare at each part and visualize how it worked (wow, that just sounded creepy). Before a race, I would spend most of that time learning how the car handles and adjust my driving skills accordingly. However, I would normally place 3rd or 4th. If I was able to show up and make the proper adjustments, I would rank higher. Not bad for someone who would only race maybe twice a month without any any practicing between. I was also pretty quick and accurate with my adjustments.

As for engineering, I built my first RC car when I was a junior in high school, and it won races. I built the gearbox, chassis, arms, shock towers, wheels, etc... The only thing I didn't make were the gears, tires, and the body. I was also extremely knowledgeable with fiberglass. at 17 I became a certified machinist and at 18, I was certified as a welder. In the mid 1989, I converted my Ultima into a mid-motor. In 1994, I converted my Kyosho Triumph into a mid-motor buggy. I wasted everyone until it was banned. I also converted my ProXRT, RC10T, and my Losi XT to a mid motor. Still wasn't allowed on the track with them. I even thought the narrow tires on the RC10T were useless so I never raced with them on. As an Engineering project, we had to design an RC vehicle that will perform a number of complicated tasks and not break. Not only did my design win, but I destroyed all previous records and my record still stands this day. I have built gullwing arms for my buggies back in the 90s as well as straight arms. All my tinkering happened before these new designs were put into production. I have worked as a troubleshooter for major automotive manufacturers and electronics manufacturers. A few year ago I worked for a company that build electric vehicles. My job was to point out issues in designs and builds. In the 90s, I build some of the most extreme show cars. I had cars in movies, like Fast and Furious, TV shows, and multiple magazines. Here what I'm saying, I don't need to swap parts to see what works. I see it in my head. For example, I just got done proving that I can make a pressure washer work with a gravity fed water supply coming from a 55 gallon tank in the back of an S10 truck. The Simpson Rep said it could be done because the washer needed 25 pounds of pressure to work. This is a non self-priming pressure washer. The sales Rep is now buying me lunch. I didn't try different tricks, I just saw it in my head and built it. It works flaw less without any pressure loss. It took me less than an 45 minutes to do it.

Now, please, please, please don't think I am attacking you. I am only trying make a point about something that keeps getting construed as being false by many people out there that are brand/team loyal. The driver wins the races. Not the car. So, according to all the mods you have made and experimented with, you say you have discovered a way to make the fastest buggy out there. This would mean you have the fastest buggy on the track and haven't lost a race to any other brand since you started these mods. This would means you have sponsors kicking down your door to sponsor you. And, this would mean that anyone with a Kyosho has no chance on ever placing in a race because there are other brand buggies on the track, especially when up against AE's. These three statements I just made are false. I'm sure you are not smoking everyone on the track. If you were, I would have heard of you. You don't have sponsors kicking in your door. If you did, I would see you in magazines. And, Kyosho's do make it to the podium even ahead of the AE buggies. I know this because I have seen it done many many times. In fact, Kyosho is ranked 3rd for the most IFMAR race wins. There's a lot more than 3 brands out there.

So, what does this all mean? This means that a driver's skill is a lot more important than the car. Heck, I took my Triumph, with the stock gearbox, to a race in 2007 and I came in 4th. I was also running a brushed motor and NiCD batteries. Almost a 15 year old buggy and I was one spot from the podium. And as for the shock positions, I know what they do. Take a look at the Kyosho arms and shock positions. You can see how the shock position doesn't change with the straight arms like the AE buggy does. The bend comes after the shock mount. I believe you are making comments on a buggy you never built. I personally have built a B6.1, 22 5.0 spec, an RB7, and an RB7ss. I have also driven all of them at the tracks. And have doing so, I would NEVER say that one is a better car. Sure, each one has it's own flaws, or a better feature over the next. The companies make a lot of money off of the hop-ups, so you won't get the best of everything in one car.

Now, enough of this back and forth. You arguing with me because your preference is not everyone's preference. If you claim AE is the best, then cool. Stick with AE. If say that straight arms are better than gullwing arms on carpet, then tell that to AE who just came out with a carpet car that has the gullwing arms. Heck, tell that to all brands and top racers who prefer gullwings over strait arms for carpet racing. Maybe they didn't know you have already done the research and found the strait arms are better.

Good luck at the track.

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Old 10-13-2020, 05:03 PM
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Originally Posted by OffRoadJunkie
I wish I had to time to make all the mods I wanted. I have a wife, two kids, and, up until this last April, I had a 10-12 hr a day, 6 days a week, job. I just now have time to enjoy life. I just bought us all new motocross bikes and quads, so there goes all my RC money.

When I raced, I would make it to the track with about 30-45min before the races start. I would only have time to make the most basic adjustments. I was pretty quick and accurate with my adjustments. I had to learn how to make all my own adjustments on my own. My dad thought RC cars were over priced toys and I was wasting my life away while tinkering on them. I use to stare at each part and visualize how it worked (wow, that just sounded creepy). Before a race, I would spend most of that time learning how the car handles and adjust my driving skills accordingly. However, I would normally place 3rd or 4th. If I was able to show up and make the proper adjustments, I would rank higher. Not bad for someone who would only race maybe twice a month without any any practicing between. I was also pretty quick and accurate with my adjustments.

As for engineering, I built my first RC car when I was a junior in high school, and it won races. I built the gearbox, chassis, arms, shock towers, wheels, etc... The only thing I didn't make were the gears, tires, and the body. I was also extremely knowledgeable with fiberglass. at 17 I became a certified machinist and at 18, I was certified as a welder. In the mid 1989, I converted my Ultima into a mid-motor. In 1994, I converted my Kyosho Triumph into a mid-motor buggy. I wasted everyone until it was banned. I also converted my ProXRT, RC10T, and my Losi XT to a mid motor. Still wasn't allowed on the track with them. I even thought the narrow tires on the RC10T were useless so I never raced with them on. As an Engineering project, we had to design an RC vehicle that will perform a number of complicated tasks and not break. Not only did my design win, but I destroyed all previous records and my record still stands this day. I have built gullwing arms for my buggies back in the 90s as well as straight arms. All my tinkering happened before these new designs were put into production. I have worked as a troubleshooter for major automotive manufacturers and electronics manufacturers. A few year ago I worked for a company that build electric vehicles. My job was to point out issues in designs and builds. In the 90s, I build some of the most extreme show cars. I had cars in movies, like Fast and Furious, TV shows, and multiple magazines. Here what I'm saying, I don't need to swap parts to see what works. I see it in my head. For example, I just got done proving that I can make a pressure washer work with a gravity fed water supply coming from a 55 gallon tank in the back of an S10 truck. The Simpson Rep said it could be done because the washer needed 25 pounds of pressure to work. This is a non self-priming pressure washer. The sales Rep is now buying me lunch. I didn't try different tricks, I just saw it in my head and built it. It works flaw less without any pressure loss. It took me less than an 45 minutes to do it.

Now, please, please, please don't think I am attacking you. I am only trying make a point about something that keeps getting construed as being false by many people out there that are brand/team loyal. The driver wins the races. Not the car. So, according to all the mods you have made and experimented with, you say you have discovered a way to make the fastest buggy out there. This would mean you have the fastest buggy on the track and haven't lost a race to any other brand since you started these mods. This would means you have sponsors kicking down your door to sponsor you. And, this would mean that anyone with a Kyosho has no chance on ever placing in a race because there are other brand buggies on the track, especially when up against AE's. These three statements I just made are false. I'm sure you are not smoking everyone on the track. If you were, I would have heard of you. You don't have sponsors kicking in your door. If you did, I would see you in magazines. And, Kyosho's do make it to the podium even ahead of the AE buggies. I know this because I have seen it done many many times. In fact, Kyosho is ranked 3rd for the most IFMAR race wins. There's a lot more than 3 brands out there.

So, what does this all mean? This means that a driver's skill is a lot more important than the car. Heck, I took my Triumph, with the stock gearbox, to a race in 2007 and I came in 4th. I was also running a brushed motor and NiCD batteries. Almost a 15 year old buggy and I was one spot from the podium. And as for the shock positions, I know what they do. Take a look at the Kyosho arms and shock positions. You can see how the shock position doesn't change with the straight arms like the AE buggy does. The bend comes after the shock mount. I believe you are making comments on a buggy you never built. I personally have built a B6.1, 22 5.0 spec, an RB7, and an RB7ss. I have also driven all of them at the tracks. And have doing so, I would NEVER say that one is a better car. Sure, each one has it's own flaws, or a better feature over the next. The companies make a lot of money off of the hop-ups, so you won't get the best of everything in one car.

Now, enough of this back and forth. You arguing with me because your preference is not everyone's preference. If you claim AE is the best, then cool. Stick with AE. If say that straight arms are better than gullwing arms on carpet, then tell that to AE who just came out with a carpet car that has the gullwing arms. Heck, tell that to all brands and top racers who prefer gullwings over strait arms for carpet racing. Maybe they didn't know you have already done the research and found the strait arms are better.

Good luck at the track.



I've already posted a pic of my pile of trophies won with cars I've developed. I don't win every single race, and I'm certainly not the fastest, but I've had my fair share of success. Go ahead and post a pic of all your race wins for the last few years.
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Old 10-13-2020, 05:59 PM
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Originally Posted by waitwhat



I've already posted a pic of my pile of trophies won with cars I've developed. I don't win every single race, and I'm certainly not the fastest, but I've had my fair share of success. Go ahead and post a pic of all your race wins for the last few years.

And he still doesn't get the point.

I never said I was the fastest or had the best car. You were the one mentioning how much better your car was and all the experience you have. That's not what this thread was all about. The original post was asking for a recommendation on a 2wd stock buggy for CARPET. You turned it into talking about why straight arms are better than gullwing arms, even though just about every top driver and manufacturer use gullwings for carpet. However, you still insist that straight arms are the best way to go and that you have all the knowledge and skills to build the perfect car that will win you every race. That's great! good job. You prefer strait arms on clay. What does that have to do with carpet? However, I see some second and third place finishes there. Not impressive for someone who has been consistently racing for over 20 years with the perfect car setup... and all your finishes are in 17.5 stock class. I would expect modified or at least 13.5 from a 20+ year racing veteran. My 12year old son races in that class, and he just started.

Look man. I really don't want to argue with you. I'm really happy for your podium wins. I really do like AE and the rest of the brands. I know that straight arms work best for some people. The guy was just asking for some recommendations on a carpet car. I gave him some recommendations and it wasn't just Kyosho. You were trying to recommend a buggy designed for dirt. That's not helping the guy. After he read all of this, he probably decided to buy an RC boat instead.

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Old 10-13-2020, 06:25 PM
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Wow.
Exit,,,stage right
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Old 10-13-2020, 06:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Funkydrummer1
Wow.
Exit,,,stage right
And some wonder why new people donít want to go race.
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Old 10-13-2020, 06:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Billy Kelly
And some wonder why new people donít want to go race.

No kidding! Sorry guys. I just want the brand bashing to end.

I have actually witnessed this at a track a couple years ago. A guy came in asking for a Tamiya 2wd competition buggy to race. Well, Tamiya didn't have anything available. There was another guy there that recommended an AE but the customer said he wasn't a fan of AE. The other guy was kept telling the customer why AE was the best and that nothing can really compare. The customer turned around and said "And this is why I don't like AE" and them left. I don't believe the guy ever came back.
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Old 10-13-2020, 07:06 PM
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Originally Posted by OffRoadJunkie
No kidding! Sorry guys. I just want the brand bashing to end.

I have actually witnessed this at a track a couple years ago. A guy came in asking for a Tamiya 2wd competition buggy to race. Well, Tamiya didn't have anything available. There was another guy there that recommended an AE but the customer said he wasn't a fan of AE. The other guy was kept telling the customer why AE was the best and that nothing can really compare. The customer turned around and said "And this is why I don't like AE" and them left. I don't believe the guy ever came back.
Brand loyalty. Itís not just for racing. The basher side has it as well.

I bet a few of the old school guys would have a fit at my pit. Xray, Associated, Serpent and soon a 4th. My on road pit looks similar. Someday Iíll add a Losi. Just to be fair

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Old 10-13-2020, 07:24 PM
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Originally Posted by OffRoadJunkie
And he still doesn't get the point.

I never said I was the fastest or had the best car. You were the one mentioning how much better your car was and all the experience you have. That's not what this thread was all about. The original post was asking for a recommendation on a 2wd stock buggy for CARPET. You turned it into talking about why straight arms are better than gullwing arms, even though just about every top driver and manufacturer use gullwings for carpet. However, you still insist that straight arms are the best way to go and that you have all the knowledge and skills to build the perfect car that will win you every race. That's great! good job. You prefer strait arms on clay. What does that have to do with carpet? However, I see some second and third place finishes there. Not impressive for someone who has been consistently racing for over 20 years with the perfect car setup... and all your finishes are in 17.5 stock class. I would expect modified or at least 13.5 from a 20+ year racing veteran. My 12year old son races in that class, and he just started.

Look man. I really don't want to argue with you. I'm really happy for your podium wins. I really do like AE and the rest of the brands. I know that straight arms work best for some people. The guy was just asking for some recommendations on a carpet car. I gave him some recommendations and it wasn't just Kyosho. You were trying to recommend a buggy designed for dirt. That's not helping the guy. After he read all of this, he probably decided to buy an RC boat instead.
You said the RB7 SS would be a good car for carpet right out of the box and that it was good for carpet because it had gullwing arms. I pointed out that gullwing arms come on a variety of cars some of which are carpet specific. You said gullwing arms let the shocks sit further extended at ride height, which is only partially true because when you switch between gullwing and flat arms you either have to keep the shocks the same extended length and run a shorter shock tower or adjust the extended length of the shock between the two arms so that droop stays the same between both arms. Droop is a very powerful adjustment that can be made all on it's own, so you don't want to make two changes at once. On the RB7 you don't have shorter front shock tower so the change to flat arms wouldn't be as drastic. I'm not saying flat arms arm better than gullwing arms, just that they are a good tuning option to understand.

As for racing 17.5 I like it because the limited amount of power means development of the car means more. In mod you already have more power than you can use, so making the car be able to scrub less speed through the corner means nothing. Light weight drivetrain and a car at the weight minimum drive like garbage in a mod car. For a long while locally stock was by far the most popular class. There are sponsored drivers who run mod and stock (or just stock), but I don't have any sponsors anymore. I pay for every tire I wear through, and every part I upgrade on my car. I do it for the love of making the car better. 100's of laps on weeknights checking to see which parts give the fastest laps. Coincidentally, one of my best races was when I was forced to run mod because there was no stock class. I've got a picture of the race print out if you don't believe me, but I had the legit fastest lap running a blinky 17.5 against a full a main of mod buggies. I finished toward the back, but I was only a couple laps off the leader. I run a 6.5 in my 4wd buggy and a 6.5 on 3s in my 4wd SCT. I run an 8.5 with 55į degrees of dynamic esc timing. I run plenty of mod classes, I just happen to really enjoy stock buggy. I can post some pics of trophies from mod classes if you'd like.
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