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Non-Timing Spec Racing - Discussion on Class Setup

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Non-Timing Spec Racing - Discussion on Class Setup

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Old 12-02-2018, 07:30 AM
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Default Non-Timing Spec Racing - Discussion on Class Setup

Hello. There has been some discussion in our area about Non-Timing based spec class racing. So in short, motors that don't have any timing adjustments along with other limitations (possibly) to electronics. This would also have the side effect (or direct effect, depending on motor selection) of slowing down things as well.

So something like this from a combo perspective:

https://www.amainhobbies.com/hobbywi...020242/p784985

As this would be new to me, the overall concept of what is or will be proposed, I was curious on finding out what other folks experiences have been on this, thoughts, etc.

So for example, assuming a class like 1/10 2wd buggy and you are looking to do some Non-timing spec races, would you:

- Limit motor to one seasonally selected brand (eliminate variances between manufacturers
- Spec esc to one particular model to eliminate any "my blinky is better than you blinky" issues
- limit to certain battery type, model, mah, etc?
- Any other limitations (esc ratings, etc?), resistor setup, FDR, etc

Again, not sure where to really begin, so figure put this out there and see what sticks lol.
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Old 12-02-2018, 08:27 AM
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I think part of racing, especially stock racing is trying to find those little things to gain an
​​​​​edge. I think spec esc and spec batteries would make a class like that too expensive to enter. I would stick to simply a spec motor and maybe just say everyone charges their battery to 8.4v no HV charging and maybe nobody does the whole 40 cycle thing.
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Old 12-02-2018, 08:28 AM
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I think limiting gearing kinda puts drivers in too small of a setup box. I say that maybe pucks can by not allowed for the class or maybe say only drive train mod is a slipper eliminator?
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Old 12-02-2018, 10:06 AM
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yeah not sure. Looking at what the Can-Am guys are doing, at least from what I am reading the FDR portion seems to be a big factor there for them along with motors being checked / certified (not sure what they would call it) to have little variance between motors.

The pucks thing I think the box from pandora was already opened with AE coming with the pucks now. Though, in fairness when I think about it, a lot of what we do with our buggies to make them "spec racers" is because the stuff we had was designed for mod racing. So its nice to see vehicles coming developed for spec racing versus putting money into those to get them to that.
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Old 12-02-2018, 10:27 AM
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The problem I see is if you use say a trinity motor and hobbywing esc and the racer only runs tekin, will they run the class as that's the million dollar question, but to keep them honest have all the electronics for sale after the A main win 🏁 And keep this stuff cheap, so ask the group who they want to run and what electronics they want to run in the class
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Old 12-02-2018, 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
yeah not sure. Looking at what the Can-Am guys are doing, at least from what I am reading the FDR portion seems to be a big factor there for them along with motors being checked / certified (not sure what they would call it) to have little variance between motors.

The pucks thing I think the box from pandora was already opened with AE coming with the pucks now. Though, in fairness when I think about it, a lot of what we do with our buggies to make them "spec racers" is because the stuff we had was designed for mod racing. So its nice to see vehicles coming developed for spec racing versus putting money into those to get them to that.
The CanAm concept has some good ideas. I saw your post over there. If I remember right the different motor manufacturers that are involved, some offer for all classes. Some for only one.

They do not come with the bullet connectors pre soldered. I bought this up early as a lot of us donít have the best soldering skills. Some of the tracks running CanAm are offering this service.

I think ink the FDR was to avoid someone overheating motors. Or the risk of it. With the goal of the motors being rentals. Last thing needed is someone to overheat a motor and just turn it in.

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Old 12-02-2018, 11:01 AM
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for dirt or carpet.??..

if dirt.. " T I R E S " one brand., one model... one size of motor.. ( 17.5 ) !... n Done..
if carpet, " T I R E S " one brand., one model.. motor and speed controller... limits on battery.

driver turns to driving, setup...

I am still learning about the handy-cap racing system..
you start how you finished the past few weeks..

you win.. you start farther back next week... you win twice.. you start at the REAR...
you win three times in 6 races.. you start 10 seconds behind the last starter..
all decided by the computer handy-cap system.
so to win.. you must be fast,, be clean.. and pass everyone else on the track.. and it can be done.

that is how we race in south Texas.. and have for a few years...

short coarse 17,5
short coarse open
Corr truck 17.5
Corr truck open

we average 30 to 50 racers a week..
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Old 12-02-2018, 12:47 PM
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I think limiting tires for a club race might also be a deterrent because tuning with tires is another big thing people enjoy with racing.
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Old 12-02-2018, 01:58 PM
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Personally, I'd like a class with a spec tire and no traction compounds allowed. A fixed timing motor is a good idea, too (maybe even an 18-19 turn?). I think gearing could be left open, as long as there's no possibility of motor tampering.

The point.of a spec. class is to reduce tuning options and costs. The classes we already have provide all of those opportunities already.
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Old 12-02-2018, 04:58 PM
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Been doing this over a year at my local dirt track. 2wd buggy class requires a Hobbywing Juststock combo and we run 17.5. No other regs and for a year no issues with any racers abusing the system. Other classes are available for those who find the $70 investment too high or the rules set too limiting. The track used to also offer open motor 17.5 but most switched to spec or moved to another class.
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Old 12-02-2018, 05:55 PM
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We've been running controlled motors in Australia for the past couple of years. It's been a Muchmore Fleta ZX - Fixed Timing motor - 17.5. This motor was used for 2WD and 4WD. I say "was" because there was a vote amongst Australian clubs that we move away from the control motor, and back to ROAR-approved 17.5 motors for 2WD and 13.5 for 4WD, in 2019. Just a disclaimer - I've only ran in one sanctioned event in Australia as I never wanted to buy a control motor. So I would just run club days where you can run any 17.5 or 13.5.

Just my own observations, here's what seemed to work/not work:
  • Control motor to control costs: Yes, to a point. It reduces the chance of extra spending for motor-of-the-month so in theory this levels the playing field. However, if you were someone who just shelled out $150 to buy a non-control motor for club days, you're now forced to shell out another $115 bucks for the control motor for sanctioned events. And that's another thing. The control motor was not necessarily a cheap motor. It would be one thing if you force everyone to buy the same $50 motor, but to have it at a price-tag of a near-premium motor, this had some people scratching their heads. I was running a Trackstar 17.5 in my 2WD (i.e., cheap motor). So to have to get a fixed timing motor that was more expensive, and slower, was not very attractive to me.
  • Control motor to control costs 2: The motor we ran was fairly conservatively timed. This probably reduced the chance that you would burn out your motor when you get timing-happy. So theoretically, this should give good longevity for the motor. However, you can push the gearing, and that's what people did - to extract as much performance you can get. So, if you want to win and have deeper pockets, you push the gearing and buy extra motors in case you burn one out. That said, we didn't limit FDR for 17.5, so maybe that's something to look at as well.
  • Control motor to level motor field - make it about the driving: I agree with this. While there are still ways that fast guys can make their cars fast (and a lot of time, it's just because they're great drivers), it changes your mindset knowing that everyone is running the same motor. You don't have to worry about thinking "is my motor good enough?"
  • More exciting racing - Yes...: Having the control motor, where drivers of equal skill are battling it out, makes for exciting, close racing. One driver is never going to out-power the other, and so makes for close racing at times, but....
  • More exciting racing - No...: Going back to the conservative timing, the cars seem slower. So when you watch a Mod race, and then a Stock race, the Stock class looks like they're powered by 3-legged hamsters.
Now, we only restricted the motor, and the host club got to choose the control tires. Normal weight/dimension limits also applied. ESC's (blinky-mode), battery and gearing was all open though. It's also worth noting that after running the control motor for 2-years, we've now voted to go away from the control motors. Which then means that the folks that were pro-control motor, are now faced with possibly having to buy another motor again to stay competitive. On the last race that control motors were used, people were joking that they'd be chucking all their control motors as far as they could..... but there was a silver lining...

As most people no longer had a use for the control motor, some clubs were taking donations of unwanted motors to provide to juniors. So for someone just getting started, you have a motor that's fairly easy to learn on, you don't have to worry about fussing with timing, and it sets a good precendent for juniors/novices to learn how to drive the cars first - worry about horsepower second.

Anyway, just random ramblings. Not sure if I addressed anything of use or what, but good luck to you if you choose to do it. I think if done properly it probably can work. Just not sure what that looks like.
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Old 12-02-2018, 06:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Davidka View Post
Personally, I'd like a class with a spec tire and no traction compounds allowed. A fixed timing motor is a good idea, too (maybe even an 18-19 turn?). I think gearing could be left open, as long as there's no possibility of motor tampering.

The point.of a spec. class is to reduce tuning options and costs. The classes we already have provide all of those opportunities already.
I understand the appeal of spec tires but if you don't force people to buy tires before every race then you can't enforce the no sauce rule because people can sauce before the get there or burn in sauce the night before which still gives and advantage.
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Old 12-02-2018, 07:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Di_spencer View Post
I understand the appeal of spec tires but if you don't force people to buy tires before every race then you can't enforce the no sauce rule because people can sauce before the get there or burn in sauce the night before which still gives and advantage.
Itíd be easy to detect, simply by smell. I think guys who choose a class like this will look down on anyone who cheats. Catch a guy cheating and suspend him from the track for a month.
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Old 12-02-2018, 08:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Troubles Dad View Post
The problem I see is if you use say a trinity motor and hobbywing esc and the racer only runs tekin, will they run the class as that's the million dollar question, but to keep them honest have all the electronics for sale after the A main win 🏁 And keep this stuff cheap, so ask the group who they want to run and what electronics they want to run in the class
Yeah that is going to be the kicker, it will be one of the trade offs for sure. Big thing is a weighing of the benefits versus limitations for sure.

Originally Posted by Chaz955i View Post
Been doing this over a year at my local dirt track. 2wd buggy class requires a Hobbywing Juststock combo and we run 17.5. No other regs and for a year no issues with any racers abusing the system. Other classes are available for those who find the $70 investment too high or the rules set too limiting. The track used to also offer open motor 17.5 but most switched to spec or moved to another class.
How has the performance been with the 17.5 Just stock combo? Do you see any issues with parity from one users "combo" to another persons combo? reason I ask is the Can-Am setup looks for limiting variance in motors, but I wondered personally if that was an issue with something like the hobbywing combo.

Originally Posted by Jumbo_Jaque View Post
We've been running controlled motors in Australia for the past couple of years. It's been a Muchmore Fleta ZX - Fixed Timing motor - 17.5 ....
Thank you for your response! Do you know the reasons why people wanted to go away from the control motors versus say going to a faster control motor for parity in speeds with open 17.5 motors?


Thanks to everyone for your input! Looking forward to hearing more.

The whole FDR limitations in addition to control motors and / or ESCs I'd for sure be interested in hearing more experiences with.
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Old 12-02-2018, 08:27 PM
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I know... lets do a Spec Traxxas Bandit class... or maybe a Spec Traxxas Slash class...

Wait a minute, I think this has already been done...

and everybody jumps into it and WhoooHeee its fun for a couple of races...

then it goes away...

And then everyone gets excited again a year later to have a spec stock racing class

and everybody jumps into it and WhoooHeee its fun for a couple of races...

then it goes away...

Repeat as necessary
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