23LikesNon-Timing Spec Racing - Discussion on Class Setup
12-06-2018, 05:50 AM
#31
Hello, some good information here. This is my idea for our region/club. I am the one that proposed it to Cain. I feel he is missing the intent of the class. The idea is to have a class that people can race without the intimidation of all the “must haves” in the current stock class. I am proposing a specific fixed timing 21.5 motor for one season, Blinky esc, fixed FDR and a spec tire. We race outdoor turf and also with a club that runs indoor carpet. Setting the FDR conservatively would limit any variations in the motors and prevent people from over gearing to get an advantage, burning up motors or buying speed. This is also the reason for a spec tire. It doesn’t allow running a bigger tire, essentially increasing your gear ratio, giving more speed. The other portion of the spirit of this proposal is that it is intended to grow the 2wd buggy class. It’s not intended to be for the sponsored drivers or the ultra competitive racer. Those people should probably be running in a mod class and testing all the limits of their driving. Focus, setup, throttle control... With today’s cars on a turf or carpet track, 17.5 is full click corner to corner. The strongest, most expensive motor has a significant advantage. The idea of my proposed CanAm style 2wd buggy class is to give people a place to get started and grow the class. Not to have veteran racers figure out where to get every advantage out of the rules.
12-06-2018, 07:10 AM
#32
Hello, some good information here. This is my idea for our region/club. I am the one that proposed it to Cain. I feel he is missing the intent of the class. The idea is to have a class that people can race without the intimidation of all the “must haves” in the current stock class. I am proposing a specific fixed timing 21.5 motor for one season, Blinky esc, fixed FDR and a spec tire. We race outdoor turf and also with a club that runs indoor carpet. Setting the FDR conservatively would limit any variations in the motors and prevent people from over gearing to get an advantage, burning up motors or buying speed. This is also the reason for a spec tire. It doesn’t allow running a bigger tire, essentially increasing your gear ratio, giving more speed. The other portion of the spirit of this proposal is that it is intended to grow the 2wd buggy class. It’s not intended to be for the sponsored drivers or the ultra competitive racer. Those people should probably be running in a mod class and testing all the limits of their driving. Focus, setup, throttle control... With today’s cars on a turf or carpet track, 17.5 is full click corner to corner. The strongest, most expensive motor has a significant advantage. The idea of my proposed CanAm style 2wd buggy class is to give people a place to get started and grow the class. Not to have veteran racers figure out where to get every advantage out of the rules.
Tires will always be an issue if the class starts to get really competetive. The foams degrade after a couple races giving a smaller diameter. Plus you could always stuff an open cell truck tire foam in there to really pooch it up.
12-06-2018, 07:33 AM
#33
In that case, I'd use a motor they could grow into to minimize long term costs and encourage moving up. Definitely stick to locked timing to minimize variables, but as long as you are going to spec the FDR to control the speed of the class, make it a 17.5 turn motor. Then they can gear it up and test out the waters of the mainstream 17.5 class just by purchasing a larger pinion.
Tires will always be an issue if the class starts to get really competetive. The foams degrade after a couple races giving a smaller diameter. Plus you could always stuff an open cell truck tire foam in there to really pooch it up.
Tires will always be an issue if the class starts to get really competetive. The foams degrade after a couple races giving a smaller diameter. Plus you could always stuff an open cell truck tire foam in there to really pooch it up.
As for people pushing the rules, we make it clear as a community, no cheating. If you cheat you’re out of the class.
12-06-2018, 07:55 AM
#34
Hello, some good information here. This is my idea for our region/club. I am the one that proposed it to Cain. I feel he is missing the intent of the class. The idea is to have a class that people can race without the intimidation of all the “must haves” in the current stock class. I am proposing a specific fixed timing 21.5 motor for one season, Blinky esc, fixed FDR and a spec tire. We race outdoor turf and also with a club that runs indoor carpet. Setting the FDR conservatively would limit any variations in the motors and prevent people from over gearing to get an advantage, burning up motors or buying speed. This is also the reason for a spec tire. It doesn’t allow running a bigger tire, essentially increasing your gear ratio, giving more speed. The other portion of the spirit of this proposal is that it is intended to grow the 2wd buggy class. It’s not intended to be for the sponsored drivers or the ultra competitive racer. Those people should probably be running in a mod class and testing all the limits of their driving. Focus, setup, throttle control... With today’s cars on a turf or carpet track, 17.5 is full click corner to corner. The strongest, most expensive motor has a significant advantage. The idea of my proposed CanAm style 2wd buggy class is to give people a place to get started and grow the class. Not to have veteran racers figure out where to get every advantage out of the rules.
12-06-2018, 08:21 AM
#35
If drivers are already going full wood with 17.5 a 21.5 spec motor with fixed gearing and spec tire will make any difference in motor even more pronounced, especially on carpet where traction isn't an issue. Have you considered going to a 13.5 and keeping all your other rules? That would be closer to what CanAm is doing. Use a slightly overpowered motor and then gear it down to keep the overall speed in check and not stress the motor. I don't think running a 21.5 maxed out is going to get the results you are looking for.
12-06-2018, 08:42 AM
#36
The sponsored/veteran racers are at full speed, not the new racers that don’t want to run slash or have their buggy get destroyed by a 4wd SC in Sportsman. Again, this class is not intended for local sponsored drivers. It’s for a stepping stone, which in my experience is what “stock” was always meant to be.
12-06-2018, 09:18 AM
#37
Nothing I said suggested it was for the sponsored driver, only that maxing out a slow motor will quickly show how unequal supposedly "equal" motors really are. What I mentioned is what Canam is doing in "stock". There is a multi-page thread over in On-road which goes over the intent and exactly why they are taking that approach. It is pretty well thought out and tested, not just throwing shit against the wall to see what sticks which is what most of these "I'm thinking of starting a new class" threads consist of.
12-06-2018, 11:45 AM
#38
In general as i have told you in person, I support the concept of the limited class with a reasonable option to move up cost wise to a more advanced class. My intention for this thread as stated is to gather more knowledge to be better informed on the options available that others are trying if the discussion comes up at a club level.
Taking a spin with some of the spec slashes and watching others versus my mod 5.5T 4wd buggy, people appear to be testing their limitings on improving driving lines, focus, setup, as well as throttle control to hit the corners with the right level of speed. Personally I would think with the power issues eliminated, you would find those items increase in importance as you can't rely on horsepower to save you when you screw up.
Ultimately to me, if my ability as a driver is only tied the amount of horsepower I can strap in versus the competition, then I would question my driving abilities regardless of class.
In my opinion, it is on us as more veteran racers to give our knowledge freely to those who are new so they don't get frustrated and leave the hobby. So even simple items like not over-tightening lock nuts that cause suspension binding or washing tires can make a world of difference to someones experience.
Probably one of the best tips is "slow is fast". I know I get the look as if I have a third head when I mentions this but when I work with them on the drivers stand to show them where to go slow versus fast, it really helps their driving experience versus what they had prior.
It also has the funny side benefit for other drivers that the person is no longer using them to make the turn, so to speak, especially in short course classes.
I agree. It reminds me of the how boosted escs were going, though, one big difference was, in general, a software change in essence was free.
"What in this day and age is "stock"?"
A lot of us who have been around know what the initial intentions of the class were. But, as with anything where you experience growth and change, its hard to put the genie back in the bottle in the exact same manner as it was before, same as we will not see a return to locked brushed motors and Nicad packs for stock 2wd buggy.
My impression as to what "stock" currently is, is actually a spec class limited to a certain motor turn and any other specific stock/spec rules (ie-blinky, etc). I look at it as if I was running a .21 engine in nitro. Not all .21s are created equal, but they need to meet that "spec" to be legal for the purposes of the class amount other things specific for the class.
The funny thing though that I think can be missed sometimes in the stock versus mod argument is that mod is not a free-for-all class. In general, you can't just run anything you want in mod for motors, batteries, etc. There is some form of limitation that we have to adhere to, for the lack of a better term, a "spec" so to speak.
So all that said, and this is the question to me at least is what do we gain from "mod" that we don't gain from a more open "faster" spec 17.5 that builds on what has been the biggest class, assuming you have the additional limited spec class that I support which eliminates the cost concerns from those who are allowed to run it?
12-06-2018, 12:10 PM
#39
Cain- It’s interesting that you mention 1/8 nitro. I’ll take that comparison. First, 1/8 nitro is a .21 motor, modified is a 540 size brushless motor. They both have a spec. Second, to answer your comment about a free for all, no. There are “specs” for modified as well. You still have to run a hard case 2s LiPo, you still have to run a 540 brushless motor. You can adjust the timing or the wind to suit the power you want though. The reason it works in nitro is because the spec allows the cars to be over powered. The more power everyone has, the less any advantage matters. If we are going to go faster, because we agree the 17.5 game is a problem, why do we need a motor limit? Why, at a club level do we want to worry about someone adding timing to a blinky speed control? Running mod takes away the desire to 40amp charge your battery because you already have enough power. I ask again, why run spec?
As for the class I am proposing, I don’t think there is an argument that stock slash is very popular and has brought many people into our racing community. I feel what I’m proposing is the closest thing we can reasonably get to with 2wd buggies, having the same spirit in mind.
Yes, new people look for advantages too, that is racing. As a group, when we see anything inappropriate we should address it. Wouldn’t you agree?
As for the class I am proposing, I don’t think there is an argument that stock slash is very popular and has brought many people into our racing community. I feel what I’m proposing is the closest thing we can reasonably get to with 2wd buggies, having the same spirit in mind.
Yes, new people look for advantages too, that is racing. As a group, when we see anything inappropriate we should address it. Wouldn’t you agree?
12-06-2018, 03:21 PM
#40
Tech Adept
iTrader: (5)
nitro r/c ,bmx ,motorcross and other forms of racing are based on skill more than engine limits(example at motocross races there are beginner ,intermediate ,expert and pro all 450cc ) maybe 1/10 electric should be going down this road rather than adding more classes . rookie , sportsman ,intermediate & expert and have some kind of bump program in place .. win rookie 5 times now your a sportsman , win sportsman 15 times now your an intermediate, win 15 intermediate races now your an expert . It doesn't need to be exactly this but something like that . Maybe something like this would work at a club level ? as far as rules just have a weight minimum and voltage limit . A smart racer will use what they are fastest with anyway and ends the motor of the week and all the other "stock" problems .
12-06-2018, 03:31 PM
#41
Cain- It’s interesting that you mention 1/8 nitro. I’ll take that comparison. First, 1/8 nitro is a .21 motor, modified is a 540 size brushless motor. They both have a spec. Second, to answer your comment about a free for all, no. There are “specs” for modified as well. You still have to run a hard case 2s LiPo, you still have to run a 540 brushless motor.
yes that is correct there are specs in mod.
You can adjust the timing or the wind to suit the power you want though.
The reason it works in nitro is because the spec allows the cars to be over powered. The more power everyone has, the less any advantage matters. If we are going to go faster, because we agree the 17.5 game is a problem, why do we need a motor limit?
The reason it works in nitro is because the spec allows the cars to be over powered. The more power everyone has, the less any advantage matters. If we are going to go faster, because we agree the 17.5 game is a problem, why do we need a motor limit?
To provide answer to that based on what I am seeing, the reason we don't appears to be that full mod classes don't get the level of support compared to stock classes relative to the perception by those looking at the class if they can be competitive or not.
As I have stated before in person to you, my main focus is to support classes that support the growth of racing, whether it is modified, stock, run what you brung, or a pitch-your-vehicle contest from the drivers stand. Having classes that drive away people due to the perception I mentioned above is not the answer.
Having classes that also do not provide a reasonable transition point into a faster class, if desired, doesn't appear to be the answer either based on turn out levels relative to stock versus mod racing.
Ultimately what I am wondering is if the transition point is such that it isn't much to go to that level from the previous, maybe that would benefit the rc community in our area more, using the example of going from the 17.5 Limited Spec to a 17.5T Open spec.
If that was actually a valid solution to issues of turnout, etc. I would be on board with that. But lets not act as if full mod isn't without its own "spec" limitations that should be checked even though we choose in general not to check them.
As for the class I am proposing, I don’t think there is an argument that stock slash is very popular and has brought many people into our racing community. I feel what I’m proposing is the closest thing we can reasonably get to with 2wd buggies, having the same spirit in mind.
12-06-2018, 03:45 PM
#42
An issue with RC is that there isn’t enough participation to separate into multiple classes or levels. Most club programs will have enough racers for there to be one stock class so the question of tightening up the “spec” would effect everyone. Personally, I think the motor war is over emphasized. The difference between a team motor and a shelf motor is not great, much closer than stock ever was in the past. I continually see slower cars beat faster cars on driving skill, at a track that has an extremely skilled and competitive stock racer group. I don’t know how to fix that perception.
It’d be nice if ROAR imposed a maximum price, timing, and watt output for stock/spec motors, but if taken care of, they last a long time and batteries are cheaper by an order of magnitude compared to the pre-lipo days.
It’d be nice if ROAR imposed a maximum price, timing, and watt output for stock/spec motors, but if taken care of, they last a long time and batteries are cheaper by an order of magnitude compared to the pre-lipo days.
12-06-2018, 04:21 PM
#43
nitro r/c ,bmx ,motorcross and other forms of racing are based on skill more than engine limits(example at motocross races there are beginner ,intermediate ,expert and pro all 450cc ) maybe 1/10 electric should be going down this road rather than adding more classes . rookie , sportsman ,intermediate & expert and have some kind of bump program in place .. win rookie 5 times now your a sportsman , win sportsman 15 times now your an intermediate, win 15 intermediate races now your an expert . It doesn't need to be exactly this but something like that . Maybe something like this would work at a club level ? as far as rules just have a weight minimum and voltage limit . A smart racer will use what they are fastest with anyway and ends the motor of the week and all the other "stock" problems .
"Stock Buggy" simply name the class with enough entries to fill 1 heat
If 2 (or more) heats, then no bumps, skill is divided by qualifying position. To keep things simple your rank is "A Main", "B Main" etc..
If you want to get fancy with multiple mains, then with only 2 mains, call it "Expert" + "Sportsman".
3 Mains, then add "Pro" in front of Expert...
4+ Mains, then add "Semi-Pro", "Semi-Expert" or just leave any lower mains as "C Sportsman", "D Sportsman", etc..
No stupid bump game, no sandbagging the quals to get extra track time, etc
However, the club in my area will count qualifiers higher than the actual main results in point series.
+1
though I think you're talking about the cheater pulling everyone on the straight to gain a tenth or two, then fall almost a second off pace in the field... however they are beating the drivers of equal skill because, well they are still cheating to get a higher position. I see a guy who normally cheats in the quals, often getting into the A Main, but they don't typically tech the cars until the mains and never seen this guy match his qualifying position in the main after they tech, go figure?
12-06-2018, 04:42 PM
#44
That's not it. Most everyone at the track I race at plays fair. If there's cheating, it certainly isn't resulting in winning.
12-07-2018, 04:52 AM
#45
An issue with RC is that there isn’t enough participation to separate into multiple classes or levels. Most club programs will have enough racers for there to be one stock class so the question of tightening up the “spec” would effect everyone. Personally, I think the motor war is over emphasized. The difference between a team motor and a shelf motor is not great, much closer than stock ever was in the past. I continually see slower cars beat faster cars on driving skill, at a track that has an extremely skilled and competitive stock racer group. I don’t know how to fix that perception.
It’d be nice if ROAR imposed a maximum price, timing, and watt output for stock/spec motors, but if taken care of, they last a long time and batteries are cheaper by an order of magnitude compared to the pre-lipo days.
It’d be nice if ROAR imposed a maximum price, timing, and watt output for stock/spec motors, but if taken care of, they last a long time and batteries are cheaper by an order of magnitude compared to the pre-lipo days.
