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TLR 22 5.0

Old 01-23-2023, 10:06 AM
  #2596  
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Yeah, the lack of carpet specific kits is why other brands have jumped ahead of TLR in my recommended “best of” videos. I get that it doesn’t affect everyone, but carpet is clearly getting more and more popular every year, and will probably be bigger than dirt someday.
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Old 01-23-2023, 11:03 AM
  #2597  
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Originally Posted by Panther6834
As great as the TLR 22 5.0 is (I have two of them...a DC, and an Elite...one of which I'll be converting into an NPRC drag car, using the Exotek 'Vader 22' kit (the other, I'll probably be selling in the near future)), you might be better off getting something like the AE RC10B6.4 Team Kit (or 6.3, if you can find a good deal on one) or XRAY XB2C, as it's appearing more & more as if TLR is (purposely?) "shying away" from the astro/carpet scene, and focusing on the dirt/clay scene.

Honestly, I don't get it...and, I could be wrong...but, while dirt/clay tracks here in the US outnumbered carpet tracks by a wide margin 5-10 years ago, the number of carpet tracks appears to be increasing, and the dirt/clay tracks decreasing. I'm sure dirt/clay tracks still outnumber carpet tracks...but, if I'm correct about the increase/decrease, it doesn't make sense why TLR would eliminate the carpet-specific kits from their lineup. Obviously, they still make the parts, so there's no reason why they couldn't be packaging carpet-specific kits...unless, their (and, by 'their', I mean "Horizon Hobby") intention is to "make extra money" from those racing on carpet, by 'forcing' them to purchase the dirt/clay kits, and then paying extra to purchase the necessary parts to 'convert' said kit for carpet use.

This last point is one of the primary reasons I'm "shying away" from TLR, and switching to other brands. Since I stopped purchasing TLR kits, I now have one Tekno, one AE (plus another AE my step-dad & I are working on, for his use), and two XRAY. While I still use my TLR 22SCT 3.0 (only because they've never released a 4.0), when it comes time to replace it with another SCT, I'm 99% certain it won't be another TLR.
My personal feeling is that the age of the 22's current chassis geometry has finally caught up to it, to a point that, unless you are Phend, you're not going to be getting the best results on Carpet. Yes, they still have some good results every time they go out, but its always the top factory guys, and they are usually surrounded in a sea of Associateds and Schumachers. And even then, the cars are so hacked up and modified to get them close to competitive at the top end, that they hardly resemble a 22 5.0 anymore. Up to and including some TLR guys running full out Vision Racing CF plate chassis, and whole 22X-4 back halfs. At that point there is less Losi there than a WillSpeed. So the focus on Dirt and Clay is more a by product of playing to the cars strengths than abandoning a whole style of off-road racing.

I also don't see this as being some nefarious nickel and dime scheme by Horizon either. If that were the case they would just copy the Vision Racing CF chassis kits, and start offering shorter front A-Arms, and narrower spindles for and "out of the box" the front end mod. Or have their own TLR branded C block to fit the 22X-4 arms, or come out with a longer standard 22 rear arm, like AE does with tier 73mm and 75mm arms. But they havent really done anything, aside from offering a transmission brace that no one seems to use (I think mostly because you cant use it with the Vision C-Block that most people have, and i dont think anyone has tried it with the AVID C-Block yet).

Generally I think it is a lack of action, more than anything else, that is hurting TLR's 2WD program with the general consumer right now.

I have been a long time die hard Losi fanboy. My first racing RC car was a JRX2, then i built a XX, a XXX, and finally a XXX CR. And when i got back into the hobby years later as an adult, in my mind there was no other choice than a 22 5.0 Elite. And i was perfectly happy with that car... Until i drove a 6.3D. And after doing a bunch of mods to my 22, it still didnt handle as smoothly, or fit my driving style as well as the 6.3 did. It ruined me. Then i won a 6.4 in a waffle...and now, the only TLR car i run is my 22X-4. And the last time i drove my 22, after performing all of the front end and rear end mods, having the car as dialed as i have ever had it, it still felt awkward to drive consistently. I went out after racing it the last time, plopped down my 6.3 that i mostly built with leftover 6.4 parts, with the exact same electronics that were in my 22 5.0, and lapped almost a second a lap faster. Is the 22 5.0 capable of driving as fast as the 6.3/6.4? Absolutely. Just not in my hands. And i think a lot of other people are starting to experience the same thing as the chassis ages.

I wish that TLR would show their hand a little bit, and start building some buzz fopr a new car. Because this hush hush nature of keeping everything under wraps to the last possible minute, and not building any anticipation, or having any glimpses of the end of the tunnel...its making a lot of people look elsewhere. And when you couple that with TLR rather unceremoniously removing their sponsored drivers, and sending them scattering, there are a lot of disgruntled "local fast guys" out there who are now shilling for any brand other than TLR. And all of that is really going to take a toll on perception, as well as brand loyalty. Because there are fewer and fewer TLR's at the track every week, and more and more 6.4's, and even people branching out to Schumacher and Yokomo. And even though i drive AE now, at my core, i am still a Losi Fanboy, and it sucks to see them not engaging their fans and long time customers in any meaningful way, on the most popular grassroots class.
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Old 01-23-2023, 11:09 AM
  #2598  
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Originally Posted by Pistol123
From a marketing point of view it makes more sense to sell two cars, I wonder if with higher grip dirt tracks (from what I read in the US) the dirt setup is more like an astro setup.I am a UK racer and for the B6.4 the UK Team drivers are using the B6.4D dirt car on Astro (for the short chassis and Ball Diff) and Carpet (Short chassis but with Gear Diff). So ironically although AE have two cars you really need a hybrid.
Totally true. I race exclusively on clay, and i bought a 6.4 non-D, because the +3 chassis is great on dirt, the 6.4 is VERY reactive to sway bars with the 13mm shocks, and it is a lot cheaper to buy a set of narrow slipper pads, and a gear diff kit for a 6.4, than buying a sway bar kit, and a +3 chassis on a 6.4D. And, like you say, on a lot of smaller indoor carpet tracks, the shorter wheelebase is better for the carpet. Where the longer chassis has more flex for the dirt.

But as time progresses, i see more and more high grip clay set ups leaning toward "carpet like" settings. With less caster, less kick up, more sway bar, and longer arms.
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Old 01-23-2023, 12:29 PM
  #2599  
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Originally Posted by BigBuckORamma
And all of that is really going to take a toll on perception, as well as brand loyalty. Because there are fewer and fewer TLR's at the track every week, and more and more 6.4's, and even people branching out to Schumacher and Yokomo. And even though i drive AE now, at my core, i am still a Losi Fanboy, and it sucks to see them not engaging their fans and long time customers in any meaningful way, on the most popular grassroots class.
This is what I've noticed locally, too. Almost no TLRs, but way more Schumachers and Xrays than I'd ever seen in the past.

I don't know what's up with TLR's lack of a dedicated carpet car. They had one, then they dropped it, and now they're letting their factory guys show up to big races with hacked to pieces cars that don't resemble what you actually get in the box. I can't imagine any other brand letting that fly.
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Old 01-23-2023, 06:00 PM
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The same goes for us here in my country. For 1/10th we have less and less guys running the TLR, and in 1/8th I am the only one in the country that even runs a TLR in 1/8th. All the guys that did run TLR gave up on the platform when TLR dropped the ball on the 1.0 which everyone found too difficult to drive. Then they dropped the ball with the 2.0 when they released a kit that had diff outdrives that caused the front universals to pop out, and then tried to band aid the issue with a different set of outdrives that were still not long enough. Now people are shearing the planetary gears in the diffs, and this is most likely due to the fact they tried to save more weight in an area they probably should not have. They shortened the universals from the 1.0, and then lightened the planetary gears which in the end is causing problems. Guys are having to run Mugen outdrives, and 1.0 front universals in order to have any peace of mind. For a car that was supposedly R&D'd to have such petty issues has completely turned off anyone in my country from buying one. So yah less and less TLR cars as time goes by in both 1/10 and 1/8th.

I also raced TLR when I was a teenager, and I still have my XX chassis, so when I got back into the game it was a no brainer for me to run TLR as well. However the only car out of my fleet, 22 5.0, and 22x-4, and the 1/8th scales I own I am truly happy with is the 22x-4. That for me is the best 4wd I have ever driven. To top it off I am not sure what the heck happened at the end of 2022, but I talk to a few guys that used to be sponsored by TLR and ran for them and they seemed to be pretty upset, and switched to a different chassis/team. I didn't ask to elaborate as it's none of my business, but they all had a bad taste in there mouth. As you said yourself, you are still a TLR fan boy, and I am myself, however there is some things TLR has been doing lately that is leaving a bad taste in my mouth.

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Old 01-24-2023, 06:18 PM
  #2601  
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This is only my opinion but at the time they discontinued the AC there probably were not as many of carpet tracks in the US as there are today.
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Old 01-25-2023, 08:52 AM
  #2602  
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Originally Posted by Kraig
This is only my opinion but at the time they discontinued the AC there probably were not as many of carpet tracks in the US as there are today.
They discontinued all versions with the hard anodized (i.e. non-black) aluminum parts, not only the AC. Add som different springs to the DC Roller and you have a good starting point. I repeat myself, but unfortunately it is not available in Europe.

The TLR website claims that the 22 5.0 DCE will be restocked in the middle of February. I was prepared to try their 1/8th scale if this will be the case and there is no updated version. That was until I read the above comments on the 2.0...
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Old 01-25-2023, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Kraig
This is only my opinion but at the time they discontinued the AC there probably were not as many of carpet tracks in the US as there are today.
I think a lot of it just came down to basic economics.

It was cheaper to buy a 5.0 Elite, and add a Gear Diff, Springs, and a sway bar set. With all the CF hop ups, all of the Titanium hop ups, all the Aluminum hop ups, and the new (at the time) VHA hubs.

As opposed to buying a cheaper AC kit, then spending a couple hundred dollars plus, adding CF, Ti, and Alu bits to the kit, and redoing the rear end with the new pills and VHA system.

Everyone just settled on getting the newest kit with all the good stuff in the box, and not looking back.
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Old 01-25-2023, 09:49 AM
  #2604  
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Originally Posted by BigBuckORamma
I think a lot of it just came down to basic economics.

It was cheaper to buy a 5.0 Elite, and add a Gear Diff, Springs, and a sway bar set. With all the CF hop ups, all of the Titanium hop ups, all the Aluminum hop ups, and the new (at the time) VHA hubs.

As opposed to buying a cheaper AC kit, then spending a couple hundred dollars plus, adding CF, Ti, and Alu bits to the kit, and redoing the rear end with the new pills and VHA system.

Everyone just settled on getting the newest kit with all the good stuff in the box, and not looking back.
I get it may have been cheaper to buy the DCE and get the carpet stuff separately, but that ignores the obvious question - why was there never an AC Elite car?
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Old 01-25-2023, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by RC10Nick
I get it may have been cheaper to buy the DCE and get the carpet stuff separately, but that ignores the obvious question - why was there never an AC Elite car?
A good guess would simply be cost. Why carry an extra SKU if you dont have to, and most customers dont care? TLR has greatly cut down on the number of SKU's for kits, and the new 8IGHT kit kind of exemplifies that, by putting both the Nitro and E-Buggy parts in one box.
They have the Elite if you want to do a custom kit, and the Race Roller that has all of the "must have" upgraded parts of the Elite on a standard SR/AC chassis for those just getting into the hobby, and at a price that isnt much more than the SR and AC launched at. And then you can just buy the bits that make the most sense for your style of racing. Be that a gear diff, or sway bars, or springs, etc. Because most people will run something different anyway.

I just really fail to see why it matters that TLR has a specific carpet kit? Its not like AE where they have a +3 chassis, or anything like that to really differentiate them, so it just doesnt seem financially wise to print up new boxes, and make shops carry more inventory for what amounts to $50 of hop up parts, and more of the same?
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Old 01-26-2023, 10:55 AM
  #2606  
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Originally Posted by RC10Nick
I get it may have been cheaper to buy the DCE and get the carpet stuff separately, but that ignores the obvious question - why was there never an AC Elite car?
I suppose they were not allotted the resources by HH. A revamped carpet car has been a topic for a long time, if you watch the Frank Root video on 1/10th scale. Even the DCE can be considered outdated for more than a year now when you consider nobody seems to run the 3.5 shafts and standard front end on any surface. I'd love to know how many sponsored and non-sponsored drivers jumped ship because they were tired of dremelling stuff and discarding half of the kit contents.
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Old 01-26-2023, 03:20 PM
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Originally Posted by mes
I suppose they were not allotted the resources by HH. A revamped carpet car has been a topic for a long time, if you watch the Frank Root video on 1/10th scale. Even the DCE can be considered outdated for more than a year now when you consider nobody seems to run the 3.5 shafts and standard front end on any surface. I'd love to know how many sponsored and non-sponsored drivers jumped ship because they were tired of dremelling stuff and discarding half of the kit contents.
They still do occasionally drag out the 3.5mm shafts when the conditions call for it. For example, on Dakotas car at Master of Dirt. There was a gnarly bump and dip about 3/4 of the way through the big bowl turn that was right in the braking zone for the hairpin, and was causing a lot of cars to donkey kick and spin out in practice and qualifying. So Dakota, and i belive a couple other drivers, switched to the 3.5mm shafts to slow the back end of the car down a little to make it more stable.

I also know some people use the 3.5mm rears on carpet. In fact if you look at the pictures of the Wilspeed kit, they are running 3.5mm rear shocks in all of their pictures. And there are a few people who run the Vision Racing kits that also run the 3.5mm shocks.

If i had to make an assumption as to why, i would guess that the overall speed of the shock is less critical on carpet, as carpet typically doesnt have the undulating and rough surface imperfections of a dirt/clay track. But does have a lot of flat landings, and hard suspension compressions from the higher cornering speeds, where the added pack of the 3.5mm shock shaft could work well.
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Old 01-26-2023, 05:59 PM
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3.5mm on carpet all day long....
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Old 01-27-2023, 07:05 PM
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First time running 3.5 shock shaft in high bite clay but i feel better stock shock shaft with same oil front and rear. Will go back to stock shock shaft. I got flip a lot in high speed corner with 3.5 shock shaft. my laps it change too
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Old 02-18-2023, 07:22 PM
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What are the handling characteristics low front wing vs high mount front wing?
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