43LikesAstro and carpet racing is WACK!
05-24-2018, 02:57 PM
#46
@RogerM
I've always been curious on the astro tracks in the UK.
Are the tracks done with actual LOW CUT Grass or is there actual Dirt underneith and the astro is "rolled out" over it?
How often are their track changes and what is required for those?
Here, much like gym tracks, we can pick up move and change our indoor astro track with ease (track is Synthetic Astro covering wood jumps and perminant concrete floor).
But what of the tracks like Robinhood? Is Digging or escavation involved? How easily do the track layouts change?
Robinhood is on my Bucketlist as a track I eventually want to visit.
MOmo
I've always been curious on the astro tracks in the UK.
Are the tracks done with actual LOW CUT Grass or is there actual Dirt underneith and the astro is "rolled out" over it?
How often are their track changes and what is required for those?
Here, much like gym tracks, we can pick up move and change our indoor astro track with ease (track is Synthetic Astro covering wood jumps and perminant concrete floor).
But what of the tracks like Robinhood? Is Digging or escavation involved? How easily do the track layouts change?
Robinhood is on my Bucketlist as a track I eventually want to visit.
MOmo
05-24-2018, 03:28 PM
#47
Tech Regular
@RogerM
I've always been curious on the astro tracks in the UK.
Are the tracks done with actual LOW CUT Grass or is there actual Dirt underneith and the astro is "rolled out" over it?
How often are their track changes and what is required for those?
Here, much like gym tracks, we can pick up move and change our indoor astro track with ease (track is Synthetic Astro covering wood jumps and perminant concrete floor).
But what of the tracks like Robinhood? Is Digging or escavation involved? How easily do the track layouts change?
Robinhood is on my Bucketlist as a track I eventually want to visit.
MOmo
I've always been curious on the astro tracks in the UK.
Are the tracks done with actual LOW CUT Grass or is there actual Dirt underneith and the astro is "rolled out" over it?
How often are their track changes and what is required for those?
Here, much like gym tracks, we can pick up move and change our indoor astro track with ease (track is Synthetic Astro covering wood jumps and perminant concrete floor).
But what of the tracks like Robinhood? Is Digging or escavation involved? How easily do the track layouts change?
Robinhood is on my Bucketlist as a track I eventually want to visit.
MOmo
For us, changing the layout, just involves moving the pipes/hoses to where we want them. Same with some of the jumps.
05-24-2018, 04:30 PM
#48
From an objective standpoint of someone who has raced on soft dirt, hard pack, clay, sandy dirt, and turf, I would have to say that the advantages of turf or carpet over natural dirt outweigh the downsides. It's consistent, you don't need to spray it with water, you don't need to do tire prep, the tires are cheap and don't need expensive inserts, and tires last a long time.
My LHS died years ago. It was an indoor facility that once had a clay track and we would have a hundred entries on a given race day. We ran slicks and diesel fuel for tires and traction aid, and they would last a month or more and for me that was great because I was a broke teenager. Then they either listened to the whining of people online or maybe just to their own greed and let the track run dry, so we had to run blue barcodes... Three sets a night if we wanted to go fast enough to win.
INSTANTLY 2/3 of their clients stopped going to the track, but those of us too addicted and stuck around made sure they sold tires, inserts, and wheels at a rate they had never seen before. Then, one by one, people started getting tired of the cost and the cloud of silicosis in the air, no new racers stuck around because they thought we were nuts to spend that much on tires, and before too long the only people who were left were the ones with tire sponsors. They never recovered, and the building is now a car dealership.
To this day, I assert that if they had left the track surface as it was the combination of the owner not caring and the manager being a criminal wouldn't have stopped people from coming out to race. For whatever reason, they chose to ruin the best part of that track: easy tire prep and high consistent grip. The guys with totes full of new tires may not care but the next generation is almost always a beginner who needs to decide which tires are the ones to buy, and the answer to that question shouldn't be green barcodes that last 17 laps before being shot.
That's my little story. Keep track of what makes your track good or bad, what makes people like to come out racing and what makes they rather stay home, then try to fix the bad while preserving what makes it good.
My LHS died years ago. It was an indoor facility that once had a clay track and we would have a hundred entries on a given race day. We ran slicks and diesel fuel for tires and traction aid, and they would last a month or more and for me that was great because I was a broke teenager. Then they either listened to the whining of people online or maybe just to their own greed and let the track run dry, so we had to run blue barcodes... Three sets a night if we wanted to go fast enough to win.
INSTANTLY 2/3 of their clients stopped going to the track, but those of us too addicted and stuck around made sure they sold tires, inserts, and wheels at a rate they had never seen before. Then, one by one, people started getting tired of the cost and the cloud of silicosis in the air, no new racers stuck around because they thought we were nuts to spend that much on tires, and before too long the only people who were left were the ones with tire sponsors. They never recovered, and the building is now a car dealership.
To this day, I assert that if they had left the track surface as it was the combination of the owner not caring and the manager being a criminal wouldn't have stopped people from coming out to race. For whatever reason, they chose to ruin the best part of that track: easy tire prep and high consistent grip. The guys with totes full of new tires may not care but the next generation is almost always a beginner who needs to decide which tires are the ones to buy, and the answer to that question shouldn't be green barcodes that last 17 laps before being shot.
That's my little story. Keep track of what makes your track good or bad, what makes people like to come out racing and what makes they rather stay home, then try to fix the bad while preserving what makes it good.
05-24-2018, 05:07 PM
#49
I ran on dry indoor clay for the first time on Saturday at JBRL/SDRC . The grip was nuts, but I did not have slicks and it put multiple practice days and race days of wear on my tires with three 5 min runs.
It was a big event with a lot of very skilled drivers and the owner was clear about it, I just didn't understand.. I talked to him a bit after my day was over and he let me know they only run it dry on average once per layout.
I love the grips levels on a normal day when they water here and there with a hose and run the sprayers. I'm not likely to buy tires for that one weekend a layout but lots of people save old bald tires for the dry days. Lesson learned I guess.
On that.. it is our only local track. If they switched to Astro (really doubt he will at all if anytime soon) or there is an astro/carpet track opened locally I would race it when I can. Racing is fun.
It was a big event with a lot of very skilled drivers and the owner was clear about it, I just didn't understand.. I talked to him a bit after my day was over and he let me know they only run it dry on average once per layout.
I love the grips levels on a normal day when they water here and there with a hose and run the sprayers. I'm not likely to buy tires for that one weekend a layout but lots of people save old bald tires for the dry days. Lesson learned I guess.
On that.. it is our only local track. If they switched to Astro (really doubt he will at all if anytime soon) or there is an astro/carpet track opened locally I would race it when I can. Racing is fun.
05-25-2018, 07:00 AM
#50
Tech Fanatic
It just seems to me a lot of stories where positives of astro "outweigh the negatives" it is because of a badly chosen or kept alternative. I know I'm probably regurgitating my earlier posts by now but the non-astro indoor tracks (which thankfully for now still seem to be the majority) in my country don't require crazy amounts of maintenance, they aren't boring killer traction, there's basically the one tire type that is best for all of them (Schumacher Mini Pin yellow compound) and it is in fact the spec tire for indoor offroad classes anyway (other than the EOS tracks for buggies, SCT races aren't held at those). And lasts for quite a while. No tire sauces allowed.
In general spec tires tend to keep the playing field more even and reduce tire hassle, here generally there's a limit of one set per race anyway (allowing for replacing broken tires, of course), in some cases two. But I drove all three of this winter's SCT races with the same sets of tires (one each for 2WD and 4WD SCT), and the 2WD's tires had also been used for many hours back in 2014/2015 and again late last year. And they're still in raceable condition, though come next indoor season I'll probably put them to practise duty (if I ever get to practise) and buy new ones for races.
Outdoors, dirt requires perhaps the most maintenance with all the watering I see done when watching streams on occasion, like last year's 1/8 ROAR nationals, but suitable clay not all so much. Our track hasn't seen water since we fixed it up nearly three weeks ago. It's slippery due to dust as we didn't salt it (didn't have any at the time), but perfectly driveable and fun. But it does depend on the type of clay, can't just slap something in there and hope for the best. The choice of clay affects tire wear outside a lot too. Many outdoor tracks here are forgiving on tires from what I've heard.
As far as consistency, dealing with inconstencies in traction is just like dealing with anything else - be it bumps, other cars, jumps or whatever - on the track, an acquired skill. It tends to make things much more interesting. It often sounds people are looking more for something like a video game than offroad racing - clean, sterile, predictable and convenient.
Anyway. Enough abusing the dead horse and all that, time to go out for some pizza instead.
In general spec tires tend to keep the playing field more even and reduce tire hassle, here generally there's a limit of one set per race anyway (allowing for replacing broken tires, of course), in some cases two. But I drove all three of this winter's SCT races with the same sets of tires (one each for 2WD and 4WD SCT), and the 2WD's tires had also been used for many hours back in 2014/2015 and again late last year. And they're still in raceable condition, though come next indoor season I'll probably put them to practise duty (if I ever get to practise) and buy new ones for races.
Outdoors, dirt requires perhaps the most maintenance with all the watering I see done when watching streams on occasion, like last year's 1/8 ROAR nationals, but suitable clay not all so much. Our track hasn't seen water since we fixed it up nearly three weeks ago. It's slippery due to dust as we didn't salt it (didn't have any at the time), but perfectly driveable and fun. But it does depend on the type of clay, can't just slap something in there and hope for the best. The choice of clay affects tire wear outside a lot too. Many outdoor tracks here are forgiving on tires from what I've heard.
As far as consistency, dealing with inconstencies in traction is just like dealing with anything else - be it bumps, other cars, jumps or whatever - on the track, an acquired skill. It tends to make things much more interesting. It often sounds people are looking more for something like a video game than offroad racing - clean, sterile, predictable and convenient.
Anyway. Enough abusing the dead horse and all that, time to go out for some pizza instead.
05-25-2018, 11:10 AM
#52
love the high traction of carpet. if you can find the correct tires to allow some slide to bad, mini pins aren't legal in my locations that run astro.
05-26-2018, 11:25 PM
#53
Sure the layouts are nice enough and all... but in every single one of those videos there's just too much traction, which is exactly the main problem with astro for those who don't like astro tracks. Now I'm a crap driver, but it did give me something of an internalized chuckle when a non-local 30+-year veteran of the hobby had quite a bit of trouble driving a 2WD at my local low traction track the other day. But it figures, since his local track is astro.
05-27-2018, 02:13 PM
#54
I think a lot of you guys are going to disappointed it is the future of our sport.
05-28-2018, 04:10 PM
#56
Thankfully here in the Tampa area of Florida we have carpet, dirt, clay, indoor and outdoor... so there are options at least. This time of the year it rains everyday almost for a short period of time, and while it dries up within a hour or so, racing on a indoor carpet track is nice. I don't see dirt going anywhere down here, majority of our tracks are dirt.
05-29-2018, 01:50 AM
#57
Tech Fanatic
05-29-2018, 09:28 AM
#58
05-29-2018, 09:39 AM
#59
If this were only about the race surface, all else being equal, maybe this argument would have some merit to some racers. But all else is not equal. With dirt and clay (especially as they dry,) most racers use traction compound, and that is where this debate changes. The reason I don't race very often (it's been 6 months,) is because of the damn traction compound. I live 5 minutes from the roar indoor nationals track (The Track in MD.) The track surface is a mix of clay and dirt, (probably 60/40) and the grip levels come up when it begins to dry (it is watered each evening to control the dust from the dirt.) Most of the racers use traction compound and your clothes/hair/etc stink like paint fumes after a few hours (even if there are only several heats racing.) On busy race days, the entire building smells like a paint can, even though most racers are using odorless compound. It doesn't smell like paragon wintergreen, but it is certainly not odorless. I have been in the hobby for over 30 years, and I love RC, BUT I will not willingly be stuck breathing in thinner like and acetone fumes over an 8 hour day to have fun.
If converting to carpet / astro means getting rid of the traction compound, I am 100% for it, and I cannot wait until all tracks go this route. There is another point. At my local track, the grip levels toward the end of race days (after the track has dried, and a groove has formed,) are much better than on any practice day (except possibly for the day before a big race.) If carpet / astro means the grip levels are consistent, even on non race days, I am even more for it.
The only argument that this thread can make is that the off road experience should be different from the on road experience. The experience is characterized by the layouts, features (jumps, elevation, etc,) and grip levels. In reality, carpet and astro only change the grip levels, not the other 2. Plus, the reason that we race, the competition and spending time with friends, is not affected by the surface.
If converting to carpet / astro means getting rid of the traction compound, I am 100% for it, and I cannot wait until all tracks go this route. There is another point. At my local track, the grip levels toward the end of race days (after the track has dried, and a groove has formed,) are much better than on any practice day (except possibly for the day before a big race.) If carpet / astro means the grip levels are consistent, even on non race days, I am even more for it.
The only argument that this thread can make is that the off road experience should be different from the on road experience. The experience is characterized by the layouts, features (jumps, elevation, etc,) and grip levels. In reality, carpet and astro only change the grip levels, not the other 2. Plus, the reason that we race, the competition and spending time with friends, is not affected by the surface.
Last edited by billjacobs; 05-29-2018 at 11:48 AM.
05-29-2018, 10:46 AM
#60
Tech Fanatic
I have no friends that do RC, and most of my driving is alone (the local RC hobby is in a bit of a crisis so the track isn't exactly populated). I'm in it for the fun of driving 
And high-traction driving is far, far less fun. I'd much rather drive a low traction track with no jumps than high traction with jumps. However it's not only about simply being different from onroad, it's more about being true to what offroad racing is about and like. In terms of RC but also what 1:1 offroad drives like. I can say for sure that astro is very very far from a scale representation of that. Removing low traction from offroad is like removing the sticks from ice hockey or something similarly intrinsically part of it - if you remove it it's still something but it sure ain't offroad (or ice hockey).
And you bring up traction compounds - well, a track/race could simply disallow those. They are in no shape or form a needed or desirable addition to the hobby in my books. They're ridiculous enough in onroad, never mind offroad. Good thing is they aren't allowed here in any offroad classes, indoors or out. It's just another case of it not being the surface at fault, but the track owners'/organizers'. Even the racers themselves in a sense by wanting to add further unnecessary elements that when everyone uses them become an irrelevant extra hassle and not any kind of advantage.
And high-traction driving is far, far less fun. I'd much rather drive a low traction track with no jumps than high traction with jumps. However it's not only about simply being different from onroad, it's more about being true to what offroad racing is about and like. In terms of RC but also what 1:1 offroad drives like. I can say for sure that astro is very very far from a scale representation of that. Removing low traction from offroad is like removing the sticks from ice hockey or something similarly intrinsically part of it - if you remove it it's still something but it sure ain't offroad (or ice hockey).And you bring up traction compounds - well, a track/race could simply disallow those. They are in no shape or form a needed or desirable addition to the hobby in my books. They're ridiculous enough in onroad, never mind offroad. Good thing is they aren't allowed here in any offroad classes, indoors or out. It's just another case of it not being the surface at fault, but the track owners'/organizers'. Even the racers themselves in a sense by wanting to add further unnecessary elements that when everyone uses them become an irrelevant extra hassle and not any kind of advantage.