R/C Tech Forums

Go Back   R/C Tech Forums > General Forums > Chat Lounge

Like Tree15Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 02-01-2012, 04:51 PM   #76
Tech Fanatic
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Stockport, UK
Posts: 982
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by artwork View Post
I simply started the thread to ask why they are still 8 minutes...? As usual people take this way off on a tangent and starting interjecting their narrow minded political commentary which is totally unwanted and unnecessary.

Still all of these responses and not one answer to the first question.

I would even take "we have no idea why they are still 8 minutes, but we like it and we are cooler then everyone else in RC racing" as a possible answer.

I get that people do not want to change and that change is very very scary. I am not even sure it needs to change, I was just wondering why?

This has turned out as expected...
Agreed, why answer the question when you can bicker about who is best, and let's throw in an attack on ROAR while we are at it.


To actually answer the question, we have to go back to the 70s/80s.

When 1/12th started 8 minutes was about as long as you could stretch your duration with the 35 turn motors and 1200mah cells we were using back then. Racing was very much an endurance race and the correct gearing and careful throttle control were needed to finish well. Battery technology improved so faster motors were used, but you still had to be careful on the throttle to last, you got a great deal of satisfaction watching someone streak away at the beginning, only to pass them as they are crawling around for the last 30 seconds.

Next to come along was buggies, and as they were heavier and Tamiya included a 27 turn motor in the kits these could not last 8 minutes no matter what. There were no rules, so each region decided what they wanted to race. Europe was 6 cell 5 minutes, Japan was 6 cell 4 minutes and the US was 6 or 7 cell and 4 or 5 minutes depending on where you raced. After the various organisations discussed it so we could run the first world champs 6 cell 5 minutes was settled on by IFMAR as the way forwards worldwide.

Touring cars then came along in the early 90s and just adopted the same 5 minute race length, which with a hot modified motor you would still struggle to last the full 5 minutes as we were using 1700mah cells at the time.

Since then we have just stuck to the same race lengths for major events as no one at a high level has proposed a change. At club level the races are the same length because drivers want to race the same time that the big races run and it's an easy way of choosing race lengths.



Of course if anyone wants to race for 10 or 15 minutes at your local races, then the people to talk to are the ones running the track, not getting ROAR or IFMAR to change their rules. Time is always the constraint though, so instead of say 6 races 5 minutes long, you would end up with 3 races 10 minutes long, not 6 races 10 minutes long.
terry.sc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2012, 04:53 PM   #77
Tech Master
 
locked's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Toronto
Posts: 1,758
Trader Rating: 1 (100%+)
Default

If the ruling bodies were open to changes, would most of you be in favor of 10 minute mains for all classes (unless not possible due to battery capacity limits) but only 5 minute (or less) qualifiers?
__________________
Dave Locke
Team PerformanceHobbies.ca | ORCA RC | Bodies by Brandon | Team Meeting
XRAY T4'15 x2 | XRAY XB4 | XRAY XB8E | XRAY XB8
locked is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2012, 04:55 PM   #78
Tech Master
 
HarryLeach's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Hampton, VA, USA
Posts: 1,596
Send a message via AIM to HarryLeach
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by artwork View Post
Look I am not trying in any way to come across with any type of attitude other then understanding why there are differences in the classes. If I am being offensive in any way I apologize. I was really trying to watch my P's and Q's with a group that clearly gets defensive about these types of topics.

Look people are getting a bit fired up and I understand. I am gonna step back from the thread because I am not sure it is doing any good to continue. I think my point has been made and that the real answer to my original question is still without real understanding. Saying it is because it is just seems like an excuse for not knowing.
The reason it is the way it is has been answered repeatedly, and you don't accept it.

Back in the day, 8 minutes in 1/12 was considered the limit of the equipment of the time, namely the batteries. As new chassis classes came about, the races were timed accordingly.

In the case of 1/10 pan cars, the tires are larger, adding more load to the motor, pulling more amps, which lead to adding more cells to the chassis, increasing weight, but not doing much for run time.

During the battery wars, guys were gearing up for more speed, which meant the batteries were still on the limit for run time.

This continued all the way up until round cells got into the 3600mAh+ range, and it was still possible to dump depending on the class.

Touring cars started as a novelty, 4wd, full independent suspension. Drive train efficiency has never been a strong suit of the format, so again, the races had to be kept short.

With the introduction of Brushless, motor efficiency improved to the point that you could actually make warm-up laps, cross the timing loop under power a few times to check in, run your race, and still have juice in the pack, though you didn't want to do it too much since voltage drop at the end of a run could cost you a couple laps in a qualifier.

Having a race length short enough where the lap times are fairly close from start to finish is a better judge of driving ability, and less a judge of money spent on equipment.

With LiPo, the equipment available to competitors has never been more even. There's still better motors, team guys still have access to the best stuff, but everyone has the ability to start a heat at the same battery voltage, and voltage drop throughout a race is much less than the Nickle battery days. This has been the main reason Touring made the fairly rapid jump from 4 to 5 to now 6 minute heats in the last few years.

I know the equipment in use by most TC guys are capable of racing 8-10 minute heats. Why don't we do it? For the same reason you've said before, guys that want change use the rules as a reason to fix what's broken, in their eyes, and hide behind them when they don't want to change.

1/12 has been 8 minutes since the Early 80's, and probably before, and there's been no REASON to change it. With the current equipment, a bad setup is very hard to drive for 6 minutes, let alone make it to 8, a slightly off setup is drive-able for 8 minutes, but probably not fast, and a perfect setup might be good for 10 minutes, but the lap time spread between the first and last minute on a single car would probably grow.

So, for the time being, I don't see a reason to push 1/12 longer than 8 minutes, barring some breakthrough to help make the tires stay consistent for more than 8 minutes, and shortening the races, IMO, would take a lot of the setup skill required out of the class.

Bottom line, IMO, 1/12 is still 8 minutes, because it's still challenging at that length.
__________________
Privateer racing lots of stuff.
Remember kids, racing isn't fair!
HarryLeach is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2012, 04:55 PM   #79
Tech Elite
 
artwork's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Thornton, CO
Posts: 3,111
Trader Rating: 62 (100%+)
Default

I don't need anyone to speak for me...I asked a legitimate question and the first few responses very contrary. As usual it all has to turn ugly very quickly for really no reason.



Quote:
Originally Posted by RedBullFiXX View Post
I think the better question, is why are TC races still only 6 mins ?

8>6>5>4 duh
Quote:
Originally Posted by Infinite 12th View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by RedBullFiXX View Post
What are you, the FUN Police ?

When did less run time become more fun

Seriously, you sound like the guy that always votes for 2 rounds, instead of 3 because you want to go home early

That said. If YOUR club wants to run less, go for it.
What ever works to bring in more racers....

I could have probably worded my first post differently but in the end it would have all turned out the same, it always does. I should have known better then to start a thread asking a reasonable question, expecting some constructive responses. My bad!

I think it is fun to watch people take my posts totally out of context. If you guys want to discuss this further then that is great but leave me out of it as I am not interested in continuing to defend every post. It really was not meant to be to such a heated topic as it turned out being, I was just trying to see how the people felt in general and I think I got the point from a few of you.
__________________
Sanwa | R1 Wurks | Avid | 2mm Designs
artwork is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2012, 04:58 PM   #80
Tech Master
 
ByteStream's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: 5280 Raceway
Posts: 1,145
Trader Rating: 2 (100%+)
Default

Bottom Line ... Racers enjoy driving their cars.

With current tech, weight of the car, foam tires .. a 1/12 scale car can last for 8 minutes with an expected dropoff of about 0.3-0.5 per lap at the end of the race which is respectable. With any more dropoff then it probably wouldn't be worth any extra time (e.g. 10 minutes). There is nothing to argue about here.

If you think it is unfair compared to TC, then maybe it is .. with current tech a TC can last more than 5 minutes without much dropoff sooo ...

Your arguement should strictly be "Why are TC races not 8 minutes?"
__________________
RCAmerica | Xray | Hudy | KO Propo | Hobbywing HWNA | R1Wurks | BSR Tires
5280 Raceway - www.5280raceway.com
MILE HIGH INDOOR CHAMPS April 19-22nd 2018 @ www.milehighindoorchamps.com
ByteStream is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2012, 04:58 PM   #81
Tech Master
 
HarryLeach's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Hampton, VA, USA
Posts: 1,596
Send a message via AIM to HarryLeach
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesL_71 View Post
And if the initial question and follow up posts had been made with this sort of attitude, there might have been a slightly less defensive response from the 12th scale racers.

But when you have the OP lol-ing at posts, taking pot-shots at the 12th crowd, and refuting pretty much any valid response that doesn't answer the question exactly how he sees fit.... then you get this type of thread.
+1
__________________
Privateer racing lots of stuff.
Remember kids, racing isn't fair!
HarryLeach is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2012, 05:01 PM   #82
Tech Adept
 
Wall Banger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 166
Trader Rating: 1 (100%+)
Default

This thread is exactly what artwork wanted and got. I know he has enjoyed every post. He and I have had many spirited conversations over the years.

Howdy Art
Wall Banger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2012, 05:05 PM   #83
Tech Elite
 
corallyman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Edmonds, Wash
Posts: 4,564
Trader Rating: 99 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by locked View Post
If the ruling bodies were open to changes, would most of you be in favor of 10 minute mains for all classes (unless not possible due to battery capacity limits) but only 5 minute (or less) qualifiers?

Not me. Like previously mentioned before, if there were to be a drastic change (which in my opinion, is not needed) but if it were to happen, then I would want 5 minutes for qualies, possibly even shorter, but more of them and then 8 to 10 minute mains MAX.

I hope it stays the same, because it isn't broke. The thing new comers don't realize about 1/12th scale is it tends to create strong passion. When 1/10th TC was strong it looked like it had some serious staying power, but look at it now.

1/12th guys are hardcore and be thankfull for that.

In 1996, IFMAR had a vote about 1/12th and whether it should be dropped or altered and I heard that the vote was 100% to zero% to keep it going with no major changes. The only thing they struggle with is what surface to run the race on but it is still a very positive class in the eyes of the drivers.

Steve
__________________
Team ORCA / ORCA USA / Pro Spec
Serpent America / Team Serpent S411 ERYX / On Point Racing OP12C, S120 / Xceed Products
Hangar 30 / Seattle RC Racers
Fasttrax Racing Series / NORA On Road Series
corallyman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2012, 05:07 PM   #84
Tech Fanatic
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Stockport, UK
Posts: 982
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by artwork View Post
I am OK as long as it is fair for all classes...I think there are problems moving non-direct drive classes and mod classes to anything above 6 minutes. Running Mod TC or even WGT for 8 Minutes could be a serious issue to current batteries. So really the only logical way to true up all of the classes is to move them all to 6 minutes. Yes, this is a problem.
One criticism of current 1/12th scale is that you can just throttle jam for the full 8 minutes these days, while for most of its existence 1/12th scale has required some finesse in throttle control and gearing correctly to make sure you lasted.

As you can get a touring car to run for 20 minutes no problem with a suitable motor then there is no reason they can't race for that long, you just have to forget the "bolt the fastest motor in and go flat out" attitude and choose your motor and gearing to suit the race length. The whole point of the old modified class was so you could choose which motor to use to go as fast as you could for the full race length. Now we have to have the motor wind chosen for us to prevent everyone trying to keep 4.5 turn motors on the track.
terry.sc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2012, 05:09 PM   #85
Tech Lord
 
wingracer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 12,861
Trader Rating: 24 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by artwork View Post
I don't need anyone to speak for me...I asked a legitimate question and the first few responses very contrary. As usual it all has to turn ugly very quickly for really no reason.
Then stop responding to them if you don't like their tone and respond to mine instead.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wingracer View Post
OK, let me give you guys some history and facts.

1/12th is where electric racing began and 8 minutes was decided on as that was about as long as you could go on the batteries back then at any decent sort of speed.

Then along comes 1/10th pan cars. They ran shorter mains. Why? Because the batteries weren't much better, the cars were slightly heavier and they were running 6 cell, not 4. All meant that they could not run as long at a similar speed. So shorter runs for them, but no reason to change 1/12th as everything is still the same.

Then comes 1/10th TC. All the same problems as 1/10th pan only more so plus more drag in the driveline. So still less than 8 minute mains, still no reason to change 1/12th as still nothing significant has changed for them.

Then comes lipo. Now all classes could run longer as they all have more mah available. But, that doesn't necessarily mean we should. Let's look at some pros and cons.

Pros:
1. More track time (if nothing else changes)
Is there anything else? I can't think of any.

Cons:
1. Longer day at the track or LESS track time if the number of qualifiers gets cut.

2. More tire wear and wear and tear on equipment.

3. Good batteries become the most important factor among the reasonably good racers once again. For those of you too new to the hobby to remember the good old days of the battery wars, be thankful. VERY thankful.

4. Staying with the battery theme, those good batteries will be seeing a lot more abuse.

Feel free to list different pros and cons if you like, but that is how I see it.

As for battery strategy in 1/12th, it does still exist. It's called 13.5 boosted and up. I have dumped 5600mah packs in 13.5 boosted before and no, the motor was not on the verge of meltdown to do it. 10.5 boosted is actually pretty easy to dump if the car is hooked up. Mod I could dump in 6 minutes if I really wanted too.
__________________
Sean. Certified speed crazed mowron.
Team Shepherd USA
www.ashfordhobby.com
wingracer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2012, 05:16 PM   #86
Tech Master
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 1,117
Trader Rating: 13 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by artwork View Post
I could have probably worded my first post differently but in the end it would have all turned out the same, it always does. I should have known better then to start a thread asking a reasonable question, expecting some constructive responses. My bad!
Are you kidding me? You obviously wanted a certain response... and you got it. You made absolutely no effort to be diplomatic in your initial post or the subsequent ones. In fact, it seemed that you went out of your way to make abrasive comments when they weren't necessary or being made to you. You even have buddies coming in here and saying that you got exactly what you wanted.

In the end this thread turned out exactly as you wanted, because you instigated a certain response from the second you hit "submit new thread". And now you are acting like a baby about it... jesus...
JamesL_71 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2012, 05:20 PM   #87
Tech Master
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Nor-Cal
Posts: 1,853
Trader Rating: 18 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by artwork View Post
I don't need anyone to speak for me...I asked a legitimate question and the first few responses very contrary. As usual it all has to turn ugly very quickly for really no reason.

Art,

I owe you a beer for this afternoon's entertainment. Please see Art D. at the Reedy and I will pay up.

Still LMAO!

Art D.
__________________
SMC ( www.smc-racing.com the only place to order your batteries online.), Awesomatix, Gonzo Paints, BN Racing

"Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery."
Advil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2012, 05:21 PM   #88
Tech Adept
 
jjbkozack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: EDMONTON ALBERTA Canada
Posts: 169
Trader Rating: 10 (100%+)
Default

nobody has taken the BUGGERED EYE TRAINING into consideration, those extra 2 min are in there because your eyes will start watering and once in a while twitch at about 7min into the race, making eye endurance a valuable asset when tearing the track up with your 12th
__________________
flipped a coin, tamiya lost so it all gets sold
jjbkozack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2012, 05:24 PM   #89
Tech Lord
 
wingracer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 12,861
Trader Rating: 24 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjbkozack View Post
nobody has taken the BUGGERED EYE TRAINING into consideration, those extra 2 min are in there because your eyes will start watering and once in a while twitch at about 7min into the race, making eye endurance a valuable asset when tearing the track up with your 12th
No kidding, especially at a Paragon track. Can someone talk a mod into reinstating the good old "Paragon on the Testicles" thread? Now THAT was entertainment.
__________________
Sean. Certified speed crazed mowron.
Team Shepherd USA
www.ashfordhobby.com
wingracer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2012, 05:38 PM   #90
Tech Elite
 
303slowdown's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Rapid City SD.
Posts: 2,299
Trader Rating: 24 (100%+)
Default

All the guy did was ask a question (this is the same thing that happend in the why not spec tire for 1/12 thread). 1/12 is my favorite class but not cause of the extra time. Thanks to those who actualy answered the question
__________________
Ryan Borgheiinck
303slowdown is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
The future of 1/12 scale Roland S Electric On-Road 1004 06-16-2017 02:04 PM
EP 1/10 Touring zafira2310 Indonesia Racing 10142 06-19-2010 12:09 AM
enough chit chat. compared, Mabuchi, 21.5, 19turn and 8.5 Bob-Stormer Electric On-Road 11 01-11-2008 02:53 AM
12th scale GTP to 5 minutes? RCTVLIVE Electric On-Road 64 07-13-2007 06:53 PM



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -7. It is currently 10:05 PM.


Powered By: vBulletin v3.9.2.1
Privacy Policy | Terms of Use | Advertise Content © 2001-2011 RCTech.net