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Old 02-01-2012, 03:24 PM   #61
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Wow just wow, your surprised that your thread has turned after you use statements like"1/12th scale elitists" and "1/12th scale drivers have a lower IQ" I really have to wonder about your people skills. Your question has already been answered many times, the race time was established long ago by the govening bodies (ROAR) at a time when there was really only one class 12th. That over time more electric class's have ben created and those race times were set at a different level is not the fault of the 12th class, if you have issues with that then you need to put together a case and persent it to ROAR. But if you want to be taken serously I suggest that you give some thought to your choice of words.
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Old 02-01-2012, 03:26 PM   #62
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So... stepping beyond the discussion of if a 1/12th race being 8 minute is fair, or not... I am trying to look at this from a logic standpoint and looking at what this is trying to fix.

I donít think it makes sense to make changes to the bits that may be working to fix the bits that arenít. Obviously R/C became very popular (relative to today) with 8 min run times in place for 1/12, and many other classes with various run time that have come and gone clogging up the schedules at big races.

So why now does it make sense to change something that was static through the buildup, boom, and recession of onroad R/C? I would look at (being a statistics geek) other variables that changed in that timeframe. price of hardware, costs of gas, race fees, the battery/tire/motor/esc wars, The advancement of gaming consoles/alternative hobbies - keeping kids from being interested in this since they probably wont win as much as playing a computer game, etc... they all went up or happened when R/C onroad started to go down.

With less racers today, I would think races in general would be shorter days for people than they were 10 - 12 years ago when Onroad was peaking. I know from my experience I used to need to get to the track at 8am and was there until 8pm many nights in the early 2000's due to turnouts for onroad racing (not even big races). Today at our club races its 11am - 4:30. Almost seems fleeting by comparison.

Overall... I donít think consistency of all classes being 6 minutes will change anything, other than anger the rebounding 1/12th class. The real problems with the sport will still exist, you'll just anger more people. But thatís just MHO.

With all that said, I am off to the track to practice some 8 minute runs tonight
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Old 02-01-2012, 03:39 PM   #63
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Neither is 1/12 pan car versus Touring.

This was simple for me, there wasn't much nitro touring, nobody wanted to run longer electric touring mains, I got a 1/12 and started racing 8 minutes.

All you're doing at this point is bellyaching.

You want a reason that can't be disputed? 1/12 is 8 minutes because IFMAR says it is.
95% of the people on here have never competed at a recent IFMAR event and never will. As a matter of fact the last few worlds have only seen a handful of US based racers.

I mean that is a good reason if you compete at the IFMAR worlds but that applies to so few people it would seem weird that we would base all of the US based racing on that. I think three or four people from the US ran 1/12th scale at the last worlds.

So, I think the reason you are alluding to really comes down to nostalgia. it has been that way for so long that changing now would be a step backwards.

It is weird people in the US constantly complain about the rules they use over in Europe and Asia when trying to dispel a theory, but latch on to it when they are trying to use it as supporting evidence for their own position. It would be nice if we were to standardize around the world, but that will never happen. Regionally, people like to run different types of classes based on what is popular.

I would think that even IFMAR would have a hard time trying to explain why 1/12th scale has a different race time compared to other classes besides legacy and nostalgia.

I run 1/12th scale, not very often but I do run it. I enjoy the class, but have always wondered why it has been not been changed for so long.
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Old 02-01-2012, 03:47 PM   #64
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95% of the people on here have never competed at a recent IFMAR event and never will. As a matter of fact the last few worlds have only seen a handful of US based racers.

I mean that is a good reason if you compete at the IFMAR worlds but that applies to so few people it would seem weird that we would base all of the US based racing on that. I think three or four people from the US ran 1/12th scale at the last worlds.

So, I think the reason you are alluding to really comes down to nostalgia. it has been that way for so long that changing now would be a step backwards.

It is weird people in the US constantly complain about the rules they use over in Europe and Asia when trying to dispel a theory, but latch on to it when they are trying to use it as supporting evidence for their own position. It would be nice if we were to standardize around the world, but that will never happen. Regionally, people like to run different types of classes based on what is popular.

I would think that even IFMAR would have a hard time trying to explain why 1/12th scale has a different race time compared to other classes besides legacy and nostalgia.

I run 1/12th scale, not very often but I do run it. I enjoy the class, but have always wondered why it has been not been changed for so long.
You think wrong.

IFMAR and ROAR set the rules for competing at the highest level. Running anything too far afield of those rules prepares you for nothing.

I'd love to go strictly IFMAR rules around the world, because all the guys that love to push Blinky could then go get bent.

If you're looking for a history lesson on 1/12, which is the reason 8 minutes has been the standard for so long, it's going to take a longer post than I'm going to type right now with the attitude you present.
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Old 02-01-2012, 03:48 PM   #65
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Your question has already been answered many times, the race time was established long ago by the govening bodies (ROAR) at a time when there was really only one class 12th.
What is funny is that is the point I raised to try and answer my own question because to be honest I don't think people really know the reason why 1/12th scale is still 8 minutes.

I don't think a personal attacks is a very wise approach if you are trying to prove that I may not have very good people skills.
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Old 02-01-2012, 03:57 PM   #66
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I'm sure this over simplified theory will get flamed at, but here it goes.

10th scale cars are 10th scale and 12th scale cars are 12th scale. I'm just saying they are not the same in many ways along with the race time included. Different cars, different class.

Flame away.
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Old 02-01-2012, 03:58 PM   #67
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I would think that even IFMAR would have a hard time trying to explain why 1/12th scale has a different race time compared to other classes besides legacy and nostalgia.
Heavier sedans, offroad cars, etc. use up more battery power. Hence shorter races. I remember 2wd offroad races that were 4 minutes.

The lighter 1/12 cars were more efficient. I remember the first guy who got 1400 SCRs at the offroad track and went like 6 minutes until he dumped his stock motor car, everyone was amazed. 1200s didn't last too much longer than the race.
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Old 02-01-2012, 04:00 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by HarryLeach View Post
You think wrong.

IFMAR and ROAR set the rules for competing at the highest level. Running anything too far afield of those rules prepares you for nothing.

I'd love to go strictly IFMAR rules around the world, because all the guys that love to push Blinky could then go get bent.

If you're looking for a history lesson on 1/12, which is the reason 8 minutes has been the standard for so long, it's going to take a longer post than I'm going to type right now with the attitude you present.
Look I am not trying in any way to come across with any type of attitude other then understanding why there are differences in the classes. If I am being offensive in any way I apologize. I was really trying to watch my P's and Q's with a group that clearly gets defensive about these types of topics.

Look people are getting a bit fired up and I understand. I am gonna step back from the thread because I am not sure it is doing any good to continue. I think my point has been made and that the real answer to my original question is still without real understanding. Saying it is because it is just seems like an excuse for not knowing.
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Old 02-01-2012, 04:08 PM   #69
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OK, let me give you guys some history and facts.

1/12th is where electric racing began and 8 minutes was decided on as that was about as long as you could go on the batteries back then at any decent sort of speed.

Then along comes 1/10th pan cars. They ran shorter mains. Why? Because the batteries weren't much better, the cars were slightly heavier and they were running 6 cell, not 4. All meant that they could not run as long at a similar speed. So shorter runs for them, but no reason to change 1/12th as everything is still the same.

Then comes 1/10th TC. All the same problems as 1/10th pan only more so plus more drag in the driveline. So still less than 8 minute mains, still no reason to change 1/12th as still nothing significant has changed for them.

Then comes lipo. Now all classes could run longer as they all have more mah available. But, that doesn't necessarily mean we should. Let's look at some pros and cons.

Pros:
1. More track time (if nothing else changes)
Is there anything else? I can't think of any.

Cons:
1. Longer day at the track or LESS track time if the number of qualifiers gets cut.

2. More tire wear and wear and tear on equipment.

3. Good batteries become the most important factor among the reasonably good racers once again. For those of you too new to the hobby to remember the good old days of the battery wars, be thankful. VERY thankful.

4. Staying with the battery theme, those good batteries will be seeing a lot more abuse.

Feel free to list different pros and cons if you like, but that is how I see it.

As for battery strategy in 1/12th, it does still exist. It's called 13.5 boosted and up. I have dumped 5600mah packs in 13.5 boosted before and no, the motor was not on the verge of meltdown to do it. 10.5 boosted is actually pretty easy to dump if the car is hooked up. Mod I could dump in 6 minutes if I really wanted too.
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Old 02-01-2012, 04:17 PM   #70
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If anything, the 1/12th scale race length these day could easily be longer than 8 minutes. I see no advantage at all to making the races shorter. The brushless motors on one cell don't ever get hot enough to cause damage, and the new gen lipos have way more run time that we ever use during a run (except maybe in open mod). Modern 17.5's can easily go 10 minutes. So why not enjoy some extra playtime? More track time on a race day is almost always a good thing. And having to be a little careful with gearing, motor setup, tire selection, and driving strategy used to be part of the equasion. These days we crank the timing as far possible (or we run super agressive amounts of boost when that's allowed). We run the smallest spurs available and pinions that are nearly the same size as the spurs. And guys run 3 or 4 hotlaps before each heat begins. Additionally, everybody runs full out for the whole 8 minutes. Much of the racecraft that used to be important during the nicad and nimh era has become a non issue because the new lipo batterys are so deep in capacity. This all seems like clear proof that we've got way more battery available now than what we can ever exploit during a run that lasts "only" 8 minutes. I for one would vote for longer races, certainly not shorter ones.
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Old 02-01-2012, 04:21 PM   #71
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What is funny is that is the point I raised to try and answer my own question because to be honest I don't think people really know the reason why 1/12th scale is still 8 minutes.

I don't think a personal attacks is a very wise approach if you are trying to prove that I may not have very good people skills.
Nice try at deflecting but I'm not the one who started this thread with antiginstic statements. You come off looking like a winny crybaby and thats no way to have a good discussion or make your case. Thats the way I see it and if you take that as an attack then you really are thin skined.
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Old 02-01-2012, 04:31 PM   #72
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I think the foundation of Art's query is solid. He just wanted to know if there was a reason other than history for the class times to stay at 8min. This is a very relevant topic, as the great advances in technology allow for more flexibility in race scheduling. Maybe we, as a community, should revisit how long the races are for all classes, not necessarily just 12th scale.
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Old 02-01-2012, 04:37 PM   #73
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I think the foundation of Art's query is solid. He just wanted to know if there was a reason other than history for the class times to stay at 8min. This is a very relevant topic, as the great advances in technology allow for more flexibility in race scheduling. Maybe we, as a community, should revisit how long the races are for all classes.
you obviously know Art, and in other posts that he has made, I have enjoyed reading his opinion on most topics but this is a very questionable topic in my opinion.

First off many (including me) have already stated our opinions and the History lessons. We have also said that currently, 1/12th is working well at most tracks, so why change?

Secondly, what exactly are we supposed to say? I mean other than what we already did? Which does not seem to be well received by the few who want more of a response.

Thirdly, why do we seem quick to be defensive, see point #1.

P.S. Art, I have raced an IFMAR worlds before in 1/12th, what does that do for you?

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Old 02-01-2012, 04:39 PM   #74
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(x+time) X classes = -classes
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Old 02-01-2012, 04:41 PM   #75
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I think the foundation of Art's query is solid. He just wanted to know if there was a reason other than history for the class times to stay at 8min. This is a very relevant topic, as the great advances in technology allow for more flexibility in race scheduling. Maybe we, as a community, should revisit how long the races are for all classes.
And if the initial question and follow up posts had been made with this sort of attitude, there might have been a slightly less defensive response from the 12th scale racers.

But when you have the OP lol-ing at posts, taking pot-shots at the 12th crowd, and refuting pretty much any valid response that doesn't answer the question exactly how he sees fit.... then you get this type of thread.
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