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Old 02-01-2012, 01:46 PM   #46
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I'm in favor of the other classes having more time, but apparently this isn't acceptable to 12th guys, hence "selfish douche nozzles"

You think I'm whining, but you fail to see how your own "argument" sounds
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Old 02-01-2012, 01:55 PM   #47
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I simply started the thread to ask why they are still 8 minutes...?
...
I get that people do not want to change and that change is very very scary. I am not even sure it needs to change, I was just wondering why?
This post sorta got away from me... sorry for the length, but I think it spells out a bit more detailed my answer to your question specificly *but also asks a few more*.

Besides for some obvious low brow posts and immature attacks by some, I think what I am seeing here is the majority posing a question back. Saying (more or less) "Why shouldnt they be 8 minutes?" I would say the burden is on those who want to change the status quo to make a solid case vs the status quo needing to justify itself.

I agree with many posts here, that the class was defined as a class long ago, it continues to evolve and really has evolved to the point that it could run much much longer than it could back then. From what I know from drinking beers with the old guard at tracks in WI back in the early 2000's, the 8 minute mark was set for 1/12th first because the cars could run to that point, but also because it forced the drivers especially in Mod running NiCD's to choose their battles.

No one could run full tilt as we do today for the entire race without dumping. So it forced the upper echelon of the drivers and skills to employ more than brute force. If I remember right 1/12th has been and still is very much a maters class in R/C at the top ranks. Today, thats pointless because you can run hard for an entire race and still have 1/3 if not 1/2 a battery left, a motor that is almost cool to the touch, and tires that barely need to be resauced to go back out.

I am seeing far more arguments for longer racing than shorter here. So yes why is 1/12th ONLY 8 minutes?. The technology has brought us largely disconnected racing from the capacities and capabilities of the cars. If we look at that... longer racing across the board could bring back some of that bravado of the old 1/12th classes... where people had to actually conserve their cars in order to win or get to the end of a race.

There are also middle grounds here. Like of 3 qualifiers, why not make the first 2 shorter and the 3rd a longer qual that is equal to the race time.

Shortening any of the classes run time to me ... to be spock here... is illogical with where we are today with dropping turnout, existing classes, and ever advancing technology.
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Old 02-01-2012, 01:55 PM   #48
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I'm in favor of the other classes having more time, but apparently this isn't acceptable to 12th guys, hence "selfish douche nozzles"

You think I'm whining, but you fail to see how your own "argument" sounds
No, I actually understand exactly how my argument sounds. I have repeatedly stated that I don't care how long the TC's run, just add the two mins. I'm never going to be in favor of shortening ANY classes race lengths. Have the sanctioning bodies change the rules. Just remember it will have certain effects on the length of a race program.

My whole problem is the "If my class doesn't get it, your class shouldn't either" mentality.
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Old 02-01-2012, 01:59 PM   #49
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Well guys, continue the spirited debate. I'm off to the racetrack for some 6 min. WGT, and 8 min. 12th scale.
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Old 02-01-2012, 01:59 PM   #50
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I race TC as well as 1/12th, and would love to run longer heats. Perhaps my earlier post could be misconstrued as a reason why we shouldn't, but really I think it's what guys at the track would complain about.
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Old 02-01-2012, 02:05 PM   #51
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The way it is currently, just doesn't seem very fair. We all pay the same fees, Why give one class more time than the others?
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Wow, I didn't realize 12th scale guys were such a bunch of selfish douche nozzles.


"There wouldn't be enough time if the other classes got as much time as we get"

"want more time? race 12th"

FU
Pot, meet kettle. Besides, the governing bodies are the ones that create the rules. When we went to LiPo, ROAR upped TC from 5 to 6 minutes. Complain to them if you'd like the rules changed.

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Now, where are all the Oval racers complaining that they only get to run 4 mins?
Most oval racers that I know have a hard time concentrating for 4 minutes as it is. Why make it worse?
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Old 02-01-2012, 02:12 PM   #52
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I'm in favor of the other classes having more time, but apparently this isn't acceptable to 12th guys, hence "selfish douche nozzles"
Huh? Plenty of the 12th scale racers/advocates in this thread have stated that they are all for(or could care less, but aren't against) TC running longer races.

Their(and my) main point, was don't dick with 12th scale just because you can't get the TC races to run more than 6 mins.

And my other point was... if you want a surefire way to be able to run 8mins per round, start racing 12th scale. Don't sit around bitching at the 12th racers when you can't get the TC racers and/or race director to agree to lengthen your races. That is just as selfish.
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Old 02-01-2012, 02:34 PM   #53
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This post sorta got away from me... sorry for the length, but I think it spells out a bit more detailed my answer to your question specificly *but also asks a few more*.

Besides for some obvious low brow posts and immature attacks by some, I think what I am seeing here is the majority posing a question back. Saying (more or less) "Why shouldnt they be 8 minutes?" I would say the burden is on those who want to change the status quo to make a solid case vs the status quo needing to justify itself.

I agree with many posts here, that the class was defined as a class long ago, it continues to evolve and really has evolved to the point that it could run much much longer than it could back then. From what I know from drinking beers with the old guard at tracks in WI back in the early 2000's, the 8 minute mark was set for 1/12th first because the cars could run to that point, but also because it forced the drivers especially in Mod running NiCD's to choose their battles.

No one could run full tilt as we do today for the entire race without dumping. So it forced the upper echelon of the drivers and skills to employ more than brute force. If I remember right 1/12th has been and still is very much a maters class in R/C at the top ranks. Today, thats pointless because you can run hard for an entire race and still have 1/3 if not 1/2 a battery left, a motor that is almost cool to the touch, and tires that barely need to be resauced to go back out.

I am seeing far more arguments for longer racing than shorter here. So yes why is 1/12th ONLY 8 minutes?. The technology has brought us largely disconnected racing from the capacities and capabilities of the cars. If we look at that... longer racing across the board could bring back some of that bravado of the old 1/12th classes... where people had to actually conserve their cars in order to win or get to the end of a race.

There are also middle grounds here. Like of 3 qualifiers, why not make the first 2 shorter and the 3rd a longer qual that is equal to the race time.

Shortening any of the classes run time to me ... to be spock here... is illogical with where we are today with dropping turnout, existing classes, and ever advancing technology.
When 1/12th scale rules were created touring cars did not even exist. It was really the only electric onroad class. When they were introduced the battery to weight ratio did not lend itself to eight minutes of racing. I mean back in the 80's people could barley make 6 minutes in a car half the weight. If you want to use the technology argument then fine do it...but then you have to explain why 1/12th scale has stayed so stagnant for so long. With 1S LIPO technology and the cars getting lighter this means that they can go for upwards of 20 minutes. Since the 1/12th scale crowd clearly feels like they can make their own custom rules anyway why not push the cars so that strategy is back in play.

So fine I will provide the justification for my implications:
1) Just because you can do something does not mean you should do something. Having a disparency between classes is simply not fair to all racers regardless of your opinion. You don't see 8 minutes of 2wd buggy and they use much less battery then even a blinky 1/12th scale and have been around about as long.

2)The increase in time lends itself to longer race days without reasonable justification. This is a big factor at big racers more then at a club level, but still a factor.

3) Value, what is so F*ing special about 1/12th scale that you get 25% more track time then any other electric class. People want to know they are getting as much value as the other people at the track.

4) 1/12th scale drivers have a lower IQ and as such need more track time to negotiate the racing circuit. Just kidding...

I am not saying either way that one type of racing needs to be longer or shorter, just consistent. Taking everything to 6 minutes just seems like a reasonable approach. It would make it so that even at big races you would not have to run five minutes for some classes just so you can fit in the 1/12th scale races. It is funny to me that race promoters always modify the classes other then 1/12th scale to accommodate long race days. 1/12th scale racers would not get screwed they would just get the same amount as everyone else. Making everything consistent is really a win win.
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Old 02-01-2012, 02:38 PM   #54
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Well to get straight to the OP...the answer as to why is...because it has always been that and no one has bothered or wanted to change it. Why it hasn't been changed...well if you shorten it people will not be happy. If you extend the length of the race then you affect how long it takes to run a race day. To stay within the allotted time for a race day...if you add time somewhere you much also subtract the same amount somewhere else. For club racing that usually isn't much or a problem because there tends to be a more relaxed pace so you can compensate somewhat by having less time between heats. However big races typically only have 1 or 2 minutes between heats so any changes in the lengths of the heats is going to adversely affect the overall length of the race.
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Old 02-01-2012, 02:45 PM   #55
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When 1/12th scale rules were created touring cars did not even exist. It was really the only electric onroad class. When they were introduced the battery to weight ratio did not lend itself to eight minutes of racing. I mean back in the 80's people could barley make 6 minutes in a car half the weight. If you want to use the technology argument then fine do it...but then you have to explain why 1/12th scale has stayed so stagnant for so long. With 1S LIPO technology and the cars getting lighter this means that they can go for upwards of 20 minutes. Since the 1/12th scale crowd clearly feels like they can make their own custom rules anyway why not push the cars so that strategy is back in play.

So fine I will provide the justification for my implications:
1) Just because you can do something does not mean you should do something. Having a disparency between classes is simply not fair to all racers regardless of your opinion. You don't see 8 minutes of 2wd buggy and they use much less battery then even a blinky 1/12th scale and have been around about as long.

2)The increase in time lends itself to longer race days without reasonable justification. This is a big factor at big racers more then at a club level, but still a factor.

3) Value, what is so F*ing special about 1/12th scale that you get 25% more track time then any other electric class. People want to know they are getting as much value as the other people at the track.

4) 1/12th scale drivers have a lower IQ and as such need more track time to negotiate the racing circuit. Just kidding...

I am not saying either way that one type of racing needs to be longer or shorter, just consistent. Taking everything to 6 minutes just seems like a reasonable approach. It would make it so that even at big races you would not have to run five minutes for some classes just so you can fit in the 1/12th scale races. It is funny to me that race promoters always modify the classes other then 1/12th scale to accommodate long race days. 1/12th scale racers would not get screwed they would just get the same amount as everyone else. Making everything consistent is really a win win.
By that justification then everything should be 20mins or 30mins or whatever length the nitro cars are running as many places run both electric and nitro on the same day and track. Heck we've even run electric F1 races up to 45mins just to force pit stops on a regular race day with other classes...why not up the other classes to 45mins and have pit stops too?
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Old 02-01-2012, 02:53 PM   #56
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By that justification then everything should be 20mins or 30mins or whatever length the nitro cars are running as many places run both electric and nitro on the same day and track. Heck we've even run electric F1 races up to 45mins just to force pit stops on a regular race day with other classes...why not up the other classes to 45mins and have pit stops too?

OK, this might be the dumbest post I have ever read...you and I both know that the technologies are entirely different and are not a reasonable comparison.
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Old 02-01-2012, 03:03 PM   #57
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I apologize for the knee-jerk reaction and generalization. I should have replied more diplomatically, but instead allowed emotion to get the better of me.

I actually think 12th looks like fun when they are working well and there's more than 3 of them racing at a time. Around here, that's a rare occurrence though.
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Old 02-01-2012, 03:11 PM   #58
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Huh? Plenty of the 12th scale racers/advocates in this thread have stated that they are all for(or could care less, but aren't against) TC running longer races.

Their(and my) main point, was don't dick with 12th scale just because you can't get the TC races to run more than 6 mins.

And my other point was... if you want a surefire way to be able to run 8mins per round, start racing 12th scale. Don't sit around bitching at the 12th racers when you can't get the TC racers and/or race director to agree to lengthen your races. That is just as selfish.
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Old 02-01-2012, 03:18 PM   #59
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OK, this might be the dumbest post I have ever read...you and I both know that the technologies are entirely different and are not a reasonable comparison.
Neither is 1/12 pan car versus Touring.

This was simple for me, there wasn't much nitro touring, nobody wanted to run longer electric touring mains, I got a 1/12 and started racing 8 minutes.

All you're doing at this point is bellyaching.

You want a reason that can't be disputed? 1/12 is 8 minutes because IFMAR says it is.
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Old 02-01-2012, 03:22 PM   #60
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OK, this might be the dumbest post I have ever read...you and I both know that the technologies are entirely different and are not a reasonable comparison.
Why does that matter? What makes it fair for an electric person to have to turn marshall for a 20 or 30 minute nitro run and a nitro person have to turn marshall for a 6 minute electric run? And if you read my post we have done electric races easily as long if not longer simply by having a battery change and that was with old 3000mah Nickel based batteries. Even that aside running 17.5 blinky in 1/12th with today's battery technology they could easily go 20mins and run just as long as the nitro cars without a pit stop even. Or an F1 running 21.5 blinky and a 6000mah battery is easily capapble of going 30mins, maybe even 40mins. The only comparison you were making earlier was that TCs are capable of running longer so why not run them as long as 1/12th...well the same holds here...electric is capable of running as long as nitros so why not run them the same length?

And if you hadn't noticed...TC has already been increased in time...it used to be 4 minutes!

Your not going to convince 1/12th scale drivers to shorten their race...so if you want TC to be 8mins as well fine. Go convince your race director to extend the length. But realize that comes at a cost...for every min you add to the class you will either have to make your overall race day longer or subtract time from somewhere else...it is simple math. Like AOD pointed out earlier...our track runs everything for 8mins. But we also have a small number of racers so we can do that. Not everywhere is going to have that luxury. Especially the big races where time is already a problem. At the IIC this past year the attendance was up so much that race days weren't finishing until 10 or 11 at night...at Snowbirds I believe they run until 2 or 3 am! That is a long time for a crew to be running a race so that you can have fun. And much of the time race officials don't even get to race...or if they do they can only fit in 1 class. If you add any time to any of the classes you are extending their day by hours.
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