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Old 03-13-2007, 12:01 PM
  #31  
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While agree with some of what you said......what is the first thing you do when you go to testify in court....yep you put that hand on the bible.
An old custom...so what? You further prove my point...it's meaningless, doesn't change weather the person lies or not. They MIGHT feel bad about it for a second, but it doesn't change anything...about as effective as gun laws...

Unless you choose not to....and now they just ask you to raise your right hand. We athiests are a sneaky lot...trying to undermine the Christian right with our logic.
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Old 03-13-2007, 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by R40Victim
An old custom...so what? You further prove my point...it's meaningless, doesn't change weather the person lies or not. They MIGHT feel bad about it for a second, but it doesn't change anything
I agree ... to atheists. However, if you believe in God and you believe in the Bible (and I mean really believe), you're not going to lie when sworn in on the Bible.
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Old 03-13-2007, 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Takt
I agree ... to atheists. However, if you believe in God and you believe in the Bible (and I mean really believe), you're not going to lie when sworn in on the Bible.
Yep, Jerry Falwell never lied...Jim Baker never lied...Catholic Priests never molested little boys...aren't these people who are supposed to be the MOST devout people around? Christians have always done so much good for the world...you know...The Crusades where they invaded another country and killed people...The Spanish Inquisition where they hunted down people that didn't believe the same way they did and murdered LOTS of people...The Salem Witch trials...The current invasion of Iraq... The Christian Agenda has always been one of peace...history really shows that.
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Old 03-13-2007, 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by muahdib4
Yep, Jerry Falwell never lied...Jim Baker never lied...Catholic Priests never molested little boys...aren't these people who are supposed to be the MOST devout people around? Christians have always done so much good for the world...you know...The Crusades where they invaded another country and killed people...The Spanish Inquisition where they hunted down people that didn't believe the same way they did and murdered LOTS of people...The Salem Witch trials...The current invasion of Iraq... The Christian Agenda has always been one of peace...history really shows that.

Hey, I agree with you. There is a line in a Christian song that says, and I'm paraphrasing, "The biggest cause of athesism today is Christians... who talk the talk, but fail to walk the walk".

That being said, people can twist religion works to meet an agenda. Just as easily as you are twisting hundreds of years of history into a single argument - or to support your side of a discussion..
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Old 03-13-2007, 02:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Takt
Hey, I agree with you. There is a line in a Christian song that says, and I'm paraphrasing, "The biggest cause of athesism today is Christians... who talk the talk, but fail to walk the walk".

That being said, people can twist religion works to meet an agenda. Just as easily as you are twisting hundreds of years of history into a single argument - or to support your side of a discussion..
Could be and I'm not twisting history...it happened..no twisting involved. It's the same thing Muslims are doing now...TWISTING their religion to meet their agenda of mass killings.

It's funny though, I had a good moral upbringing and try to do right by others and my Christian friends always tell me I'm the most Christian Athiest they know... I never know whether to take it as a compliment or an insult..

Sorry about hijacking the thread...I'll go back and beat up on the Electric on-road politics threads some more.
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Old 03-13-2007, 02:32 PM
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Originally Posted by muahdib4
Could be and I'm not twisting history...it happened..no twisting involved. It's the same thing Muslims are doing now...TWISTING their religion to meet their agenda of mass killings.

It's funny though, I had a good moral upbringing and try to do right by others and my Christian friends always tell me I'm the most Christian Athiest they know... I never know whether to take it as a compliment or an insult..

Sorry about hijacking the thread...I'll go back and beat up on the Electric on-road politics threads some more.

I don't think we can hijack a thread I started .... I might be wrong -- we'll need a ruling from the forum police.

I've read the statement "... I'm the most Christian Athiest they know..." several times, and I don't know if it is a compliment or an insult either. If you know you're a good, ethical guy, I guess it is a compliment.
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Old 03-14-2007, 01:02 AM
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We are not fighting Over religion we are fighting over the death of Americans. We can argue all day about religion and the US. would never wage war over religion. We were attacked on our soil. We do not go around cheap shotting, we call you up and say drop your weapons or we will shoot. We gave them a chance for forgiveness and they chose war. Irock is the front door and we kicked it in. although if we would have gotten Osama first I would even felt better about that war.
Religion always gets the rap for one or mores greed of power or control.
Do you really think we fight over which religion is better? (right or wrong).
This country embraces every possible religion and walk of life.
Atheism is a religion right? Or is it a walk of life? Atheism is the hind sight religion. What is the vision of atheism? Would it dare to fail be wrong or even succeed? Where did it derive and were is it going? We are trying to put an end to terrorism. A way of life is what we are at war over, and religion is just the basis of that, and that religion was hi jacked. In the US. We embrace all religions in a belief that all religions have some thing to offer to the good of another. Hmmm who do I want to win the war? The history of the US. stands for its self right or wrong. Not to dog atheism because I understand seeing is believing. Maybe you can enlighten us on atheism? I even like Bill Mauer, and Goerge carlin to name a couple.
I believe that in order to ever have a perfect religion you would have to mix them all in to one.
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Old 03-14-2007, 08:23 AM
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Atheism is NOT any form of religeon, it's the lack therof. I understand that's a difficult concept considering you were most likely raised to believe something or other. Nobody said the war in Iraq was religeous in nature, in fact, it's totally political. We were FUMING after 911, and Bush told us Iraq, or terroists residing there, were responsible. When asked later, what Iraq had to do with 911, he plainly said, "Nothing". We wanted some payback...he gave us a target. Constantly repeating "WMDs" and "We don't want the next theing we see to be a mushroom cloud" Bush, Cheney, Condi, and their crowd all beat it into our heads that we had something comming, and if we didn't get off our asses, we'd be blown to bits. Well, so far, we leveled a country in a few days, spent billions Policing a foreign country, and are STILL there fighting, as we are told, for someone else's freedom. They can't even keep the same objective. I and many other's B.S. alarms go off every time Bush tries to convince us the Iraq situation is nessicery...
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Old 03-14-2007, 08:39 AM
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Originally Posted by R40Victim
Atheism is NOT any form of religeon, it's the lack therof. I understand that's a difficult concept considering you were most likely raised to believe something or other. Nobody said the war in Iraq was religeous in nature, in fact, it's totally political. We were FUMING after 911, and Bush told us Iraq, or terroists residing there, were responsible. When asked later, what Iraq had to do with 911, he plainly said, "Nothing". We wanted some payback...he gave us a target. Constantly repeating "WMDs" and "We don't want the next theing we see to be a mushroom cloud" Bush, Cheney, Condi, and their crowd all beat it into our heads that we had something comming, and if we didn't get off our asses, we'd be blown to bits. Well, so far, we leveled a country in a few days, spent billions Policing a foreign country, and are STILL there fighting, as we are told, for someone else's freedom. They can't even keep the same objective. I and many other's B.S. alarms go off every time Bush tries to convince us the Iraq situation is nessicery...
I hate to agree with people...but I do agree. Though I do believe that the war is largely religious. It starts with the Muslim fanatics ideal of destroying the infedels and Bush's idea of destroy them before they destroy us. All the countries in the middle east hate the U.S. because of our support of the Jewish Israel State. I'm not being anti-semetic..Muslims hate Jews and the U.S. supports Jews. I'm also not saying we should stop supporting Israel, just that maybe we shouldn't support Israels wrong doings against the Palestinians. Not that the Palestinians haven't done wrong things too but we seem to support rocket attacks on major Palestinian populated areas and then condemn the Palestinians for suicide bomber retaliations. Is it really our place to be in the middle of all that? No, let all the crazy religious nutballs in the middle-east fight it out amongst themselves and stay out of it. Eventually, they'll kill themselves off. Or just Nuke the entire place, turn the deserts to glass and use that giant reflective mirror we just created to help power the world. Energy crisis over too. Maybe that's a little extreme but cheaper then the war we're fighting now.
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Old 03-14-2007, 09:00 AM
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I hate to muddle this discussion with facts, but here I go.

The Iraq war was caused by Iraq not following UN resolutions and making the UN a total joke. The U.S. and a very small group of allies were the only ones that thought it was important that a rogue state not be allowed to do that. Other countries on the UN security council (France, Russia, maybe China) all have a financial stake in Iraq, so they just wanted to continue to look the other way and keep making their money.

I'm not saying the war in Iraq is going well, or that Iraq had anything to do with 9-11.

One thing the war has accomplished is that it's taken the fight to the terrorists' back yard, rather than our back yard.

How many of you honestly thought back in say October of 2001 that there would not be another major terrorist attack in the U.S. in the next 5 years?

If nothing else, we (the U.S.) has taken the fight to the terrorists. I'm OK with that.

Below is a portion of an article from before the Iraq war, just to re-adjust all of our memories back to reality:

08 November 2002
U.N. Security Council Resolution 1441
Security Council Tightens Iraqi Disarmament Regime

United Nations -- The Security Council unanimously adopted a resolution November 8 strengthening the weapons inspection regime for Iraq and giving Baghdad, in the words of the resolution, "a final opportunity to comply with its disarmament obligations."

All 15 council members voted for the resolution: permanent members China, France, Russia, the United Kingdom, and the United States; and non-permanent members Bulgaria, Cameroon, Colombia, Guinea, Ireland, Mauritius, Mexico, Norway, Singapore, and Syria.

The resolution states that Iraq remains in material breach of council resolutions relating to Iraq's 1990 invasion of Kuwait and requires that Baghdad give UNMOVIC and IAEA a complete and accurate declaration of all aspects of its chemical, biological and nuclear weapons programs and ballistic missiles systems, as well as information on other chemical, biological, and nuclear programs that are supposed to be for civilian purposes, within 30 days.

Finally, it warns Iraq that "it will face serious consequences" if it continues to violate its obligations as spelled out in the resolution.
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Old 03-14-2007, 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Hawk6
I hate to muddle this discussion with facts, but here I go.

The Iraq war was caused by Iraq not following UN resolutions and making the UN a total joke. The U.S. and a very small group of allies were the only ones that thought it was important that a rogue state not be allowed to do that. Other countries on the UN security council (France, Russia, maybe China) all have a financial stake in Iraq, so they just wanted to continue to look the other way and keep making their money.

I'm not saying the war in Iraq is going well, or that Iraq had anything to do with 9-11.

One thing the war has accomplished is that it's taken the fight to the terrorists' back yard, rather than our back yard.

How many of you honestly thought back in say October of 2001 that there would not be another major terrorist attack in the U.S. in the next 5 years?

If nothing else, we (the U.S.) has taken the fight to the terrorists. I'm OK with that.

Below is a portion of an article from before the Iraq war, just to re-adjust all of our memories back to reality:

08 November 2002
U.N. Security Council Resolution 1441
Security Council Tightens Iraqi Disarmament Regime

United Nations -- The Security Council unanimously adopted a resolution November 8 strengthening the weapons inspection regime for Iraq and giving Baghdad, in the words of the resolution, "a final opportunity to comply with its disarmament obligations."

All 15 council members voted for the resolution: permanent members China, France, Russia, the United Kingdom, and the United States; and non-permanent members Bulgaria, Cameroon, Colombia, Guinea, Ireland, Mauritius, Mexico, Norway, Singapore, and Syria.

The resolution states that Iraq remains in material breach of council resolutions relating to Iraq's 1990 invasion of Kuwait and requires that Baghdad give UNMOVIC and IAEA a complete and accurate declaration of all aspects of its chemical, biological and nuclear weapons programs and ballistic missiles systems, as well as information on other chemical, biological, and nuclear programs that are supposed to be for civilian purposes, within 30 days.

Finally, it warns Iraq that "it will face serious consequences" if it continues to violate its obligations as spelled out in the resolution.

How many WMDs were found? How many facilities building them were found? Yep, that would be a big-fat ZERO. So they were in violation of what? You don't think the U.S. has oil interests in the middle-east they were trying to protect? It's called a smokescreen.
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Old 03-14-2007, 09:23 AM
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So, you are in agreement with Saddam Hussdein and Al Qaida?

Hussein chose to play a game of "Chicken" with the UN (hiding things or pretending to hide things from inspectors), and he ended up losing - thank to the U.S.

I guess my point was everyone loves pointing at Bush, the oil companies, ...
The world needs a bully to hate and now the U.S. is it.

What about the U.N., France, Russia? If you're a Bush-hater, I know it's fun to blame him for everything, but it's not quite that simple.

So, let's pretend the U.S. didn't invade Iraq. What would be different?
Saddam still in power, still making a joke of the UN and UN resolutions, maybe invading Kuwait again, or Israel? Why not? The UN's not going to do anything about it.

Iran, Libya, and other countries following Iraq's lead and developing WMDs.

Al Qaida on the offensive instead of the defensive. I'd guess either the Sears Tower in Chicago, some other skyscraper, or maybe a SuperBowl in the last 5 years is destroyed.

Like I said, in the world today, I'm OK with keeping terrorists on the defensive on their own soil rather than on the offensive.
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Old 03-14-2007, 09:28 AM
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I hate to agree with people...but I do agree. Though I do believe that the war is largely religious. It starts with the Muslim fanatics ideal of destroying the infedels and Bush's idea of destroy them before they destroy us. All the countries in the middle east hate the U.S. because of our support of the Jewish Israel State. I'm not being anti-semetic..Muslims hate Jews and the U.S. supports Jews. I'm also not saying we should stop supporting Israel, just that maybe we shouldn't support Israels wrong doings against the Palestinians. Not that the Palestinians haven't done wrong things too but we seem to support rocket attacks on major Palestinian populated areas and then condemn the Palestinians for suicide bomber retaliations. Is it really our place to be in the middle of all that? No, let all the crazy religious nutballs in the middle-east fight it out amongst themselves and stay out of it. Eventually, they'll kill themselves off. Or just Nuke the entire place, turn the deserts to glass and use that giant reflective mirror we just created to help power the world. Energy crisis over too. Maybe that's a little extreme but cheaper then the war we're fighting now.
I like to agree with people...feels good! I'm with you, and understand your point about the religeous componant of the current situation.

How many WMDs were found? How many facilities building them were found? Yep, that would be a big-fat ZERO. So they were in violation of what? You don't think the U.S. has oil interests in the middle-east they were trying to protect? It's called a smokescreen.
Ditto, if he was such a threat, reguardless of the events leading up to the invasion, why isn't the Bush administration parading around with all the evidence he based our reason for invasion on? A caller asked Boortz this question a few months back...he had no anwsers...

It really irritates me that Bush would change the mission mid stream. It went from a WMD witch hunt, to "Operation Iraqi Freedom"... WTF! I wouldn't send our troops to die for somebody elses freedom, would you? If they want to be free, and I mean truely free from oppression, then they themselves need to rise up and fight!...something like a Brittish colony did a couple hundred years ago...

The fact remains, we started a job, and need to finish it. It's basically our mess, and while I don't like it, we can't just up and leave.
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Old 03-14-2007, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by muahdib4
How many WMDs were found? How many facilities building them were found? Yep, that would be a big-fat ZERO. So they were in violation of what? You don't think the U.S. has oil interests in the middle-east they were trying to protect? It's called a smokescreen.
Huh? A declassified report by the National Ground Intelligence Center said, "Since 2003, coalition forces have recovered approximately 500 weapons munitions which contain degraded mustard or sarin nerve agent."

Those don't count? Or is it the Bush Administration made up these reports to make everyone feel good?

Also, please remember that members of congress reviewed the same data the President had and gave him the power to go to war based on that data.

It is always easier to use the hindsight is 20/20. At the time, this is what they knew and they made decisions based on that data. I respect Hillary for saying as much, even with all the pressure she was getting from the left for approving war power to the president.
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Old 03-14-2007, 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Hawk6
So, you are in agreement with Saddam Hussdein and Al Qaida?

Hussein chose to play a game of "Chicken" with the UN (hiding things or pretending to hide things from inspectors), and he ended up losing - thank to the U.S.

I guess my point was everyone loves pointing at Bush, the oil companies, ...
The world needs a bully to hate and now the U.S. is it.

What about the U.N., France, Russia? If you're a Bush-hater, I know it's fun to blame him for everything, but it's not quite that simple.

So, let's pretend the U.S. didn't invade Iraq. What would be different?
Saddam still in power, still making a joke of the UN and UN resolutions, maybe invading Kuwait again, or Israel? Why not? The UN's not going to do anything about it.

Iran, Libya, and other countries following Iraq's lead and developing WMDs.

Al Qaida on the offensive instead of the defensive. I'd guess either the Sears Tower in Chicago, some other skyscraper, or maybe a SuperBowl in the last 5 years is destroyed.

Like I said, in the world today, I'm OK with keeping terrorists on the defensive on their own soil rather than on the offensive.
Sure, that's it exactly...I agree with Hussein and Al-Quida?!?!? Are you serious? Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I've buddied up with Muslim extremists. Give me a break. You can't win a Holy War and to the people of the middle-east...this IS a holy war. These people are willing to strap bombs to themselves and blow up men, women, children, babies and anything else in the vicinity...are U.S. soldiers willing to do that...I sure hope not. The U.S. has a policy of doing everything we can to protect innocent lives, even in a war zone but you can't do that when anybody and everybody could be the enemy. You either kill them all or get out and let them have their little tribal conflicts until they kill each other off. You wan't to protect this country from terrorists...don't let them in. Close the borders to all people from the middle-east and all Muslims and then ship the ones here back to where they came from. Then we just have to worry about the crazies like Timothy McVay and Ted Kaczinsky.
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