Roar outlaws Trinity D3.5 17.5 motors
01-18-2013, 12:46 PM
#16
GSM Storm,
Only states the 17.5 motor not 21.5.
Later,
Calvin
Only states the 17.5 motor not 21.5.
Later,
Calvin
01-18-2013, 01:45 PM
#18
From Jeff at Fantom motors ... maybe ROAR has it wrong
To whom it may concern:
This morning I started my daily business with some very unsettling news. It started with a phone call from a customer, followed by my email inbox being filled with numerous inquiries. By 9:00am this morning, I already had one dealer of ours ask who is going to be responsible for reimbursing them. Just this one request alone could end up costing us several thousand dollars. In the 2 hours it has taken to write this email, my phone and email has been receiving inquiries literally every 5 to 10 minutes.
As you know, I am referring to the announcement that "ROAR" made regarding the ban of the D3.5 17.5 motor. Cutting to the chase, did the ROAR Executive Committee actually give any thought to the trickle down affect this will have on our industry? Did you consider the harm this would do to not only one of the pioneering companies that played a big part in the shaping of this industry as we know it today (Trinity), to the dozens of OEM customers that purchase this product, to the distributors and hundreds of hobby shops, to the thousands of customers who have already purchased this product? Speaking as just one of dozens of OEM customers of Trinity, this is how my employees and I have been making our living since 1995. Like everyone else, I have a mortgage, a wife and a child to feed and many bills. I'm self-employed...If I have to close down and can't find another job, I can't just go down to the unemployment office and file for unemployment benefits. The 17.5 motor is by far the main product that puts food on my table. I am just one of hundreds, if not thousands, that this is affecting. These are people's lives and families that you are messing with, just because the wire on Trinity's 17.5 motor is .005" over your spec, which isn't even a correct spec in the first place (more on this in the following paragraphs). To say the least, this is appalling and extremely irresponsible.
As mentioned above, the wire specs that ROAR listed are simply not correct. First, the rules state that the wire size can be a maximum diameter of 20AWG or 0.813mm. This in itself is a conflicting statement. Obviously, the person who wrote this rule had no experience with AWG (American Wire Gauge) wire sizes, because if they did, they would know that all AWG wire has indisputable allowable tolerances. Furthermore, all magnet wire conforms to one universal specification, the NEMA MW1000 spec, which allows for these tolerances. Simply put, you cannot list in the rules that the wire can be 20AWG or 0.813mm in the same sentence, because it's absolutely not correct according to AWG standards and is also not grammatically correct.
As many of you know, my company has been hand winding motors for many years, from 1980 when the original owner started and then taken over by me in 1995. Please find attached a wire chart that was passed on to me from the original owner of Fantom. This is a chart that I have followed whenever a question or concern has came up regarding wire sizes. As you can see, 20AWG wire is listed as three different sizes, i.e. Minimum 0.317" (.80518mm), Nominal 0.032" (.8128mm), and Maximum .0322" (.81788mm). As you can see, tolerances are allowed by AWG standards, so it is wrong for you to list in the rules that the wire can be 20AWG and at the same time be a maximum of 0.813mm in the same sentence. There is no wire manufacturer in the world that can produce wire to the nominal size of .8128mm without an allowable tolerance. It is impossible.
In light of this situation, I also contacted the wire company that I have been purchasing wire from for many years. The company is MWS Wire Industries and my contact is Kevin McClure. His email address is: [email protected] Upon asking Kevin what the industry specifications are for 20AWG wire, here is what he replied to me:
With any wire there is always going to be a tolerance, in the case of 20 AWG, the bare copper tolerance is .0317-.0323". You won't find any wire company that can guarantee exactly .032" Bare. FYI: The overall diameter of a 20 STAI wire w/enamel is .0329-.0339".
If you would like the complete email, to confirm that I am not making this up, I will be happy to forward the entire conversation upon your request, and/or you can email Kevin direct. Please read the above reply carefully and notice that he says that "you won't find any wire company that can guarantee exactly .032" (= .8128 mm) bare wire". Also notice that the tolerances he listed are exactly as the attached chart lists them at (appears he rounded up the maximum to .0323 from .0322 if we are splitting hairs here).
I further investigated AWG wire by reviewing Wikipedia's encyclopedia definition found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_wire_gauge The first sentence reveals the following: American wire gauge (AWG), also known as the Brown & Sharpe wire gauge, is a standardized wire gauge system used since 1857 predominantly in the United States and Canada for the diameters of round, solid, nonferrous, electrically conducting wire.[1]
As you can see, AWG has been a standardized system since 1857. There is simply no arguing that AWG wire has a tolerance and this tolerance should be allowed by ROAR if you are going to put "20AWG" and the "maximum size" in the same sentence of your rules. There is nothing in this world that is produced without a tolerance...even multi-million dollar F14 fighter jets were built with tolerances. In fact, my brother-in-law is a machinist who worked on airplane parts and the tolerances were in the millionths of an inch, but they still allowed tolerances.
As a ROAR Affiliate, at this time I would also like to voice my concerns about Ron Schuur. This is nothing personal, as I do not even know him. My concerns are on a business level only. My concern is that ROAR is allowing a motor company owner (Schuur Speed) to be in charge of motor and battery approvals. If this is not a conflict of interest, I don't know what is. This would not be tolerated in any other industry and should not be tolerated in this industry. It is not right and is irresponsible for all of the other committee members to allow it.
I'm sure some of you may be interested in one of probably dozens of similar forums that I found on the Internet showing the support, or lack of support, to your decision. Here's the link: www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showthread.php?t=384615
In conclusion, it is my opinion that the Executive Committee should reinstate the D3.5 17.5 approval and publicly apologize to all of the people who's lives were dramatically affected by this irresponsible action. If ROAR wants to make the future rule state that the wire can only be a maximum of .813mm, then the rule should be rewritten grammatically correct and should eliminate any AWG wire sizes in the same sentence. Also, if a new rule is written, it should not affect current approvals, including the D3.5 17.5. As written, the current rule makes absolutely no sense and should not affect the original approval of the D3.5 17.5 motor. As mentioned above, this action has affected mine and my family's life and countless others lives. This matter needs immediate attention and needs to be resolved quickly. If it is not resolved quickly, I will join with Trinity and do everything I can to help them legally resolve this matter. I would hope as professionals, that we can all come together and resolve this situation without involving litigation. It simply comes down to that one sentence, published by ROAR, that is indisputably incorrect: "Rule 8.8.4.3.1...a maximum diameter of 20AWG or 0.813 mm per slot". This rule will not hold up under litigation.
Thank you for your time.
Regards,
Jeff Schroeder
Owner: Fantom Racing
To whom it may concern:
This morning I started my daily business with some very unsettling news. It started with a phone call from a customer, followed by my email inbox being filled with numerous inquiries. By 9:00am this morning, I already had one dealer of ours ask who is going to be responsible for reimbursing them. Just this one request alone could end up costing us several thousand dollars. In the 2 hours it has taken to write this email, my phone and email has been receiving inquiries literally every 5 to 10 minutes.
As you know, I am referring to the announcement that "ROAR" made regarding the ban of the D3.5 17.5 motor. Cutting to the chase, did the ROAR Executive Committee actually give any thought to the trickle down affect this will have on our industry? Did you consider the harm this would do to not only one of the pioneering companies that played a big part in the shaping of this industry as we know it today (Trinity), to the dozens of OEM customers that purchase this product, to the distributors and hundreds of hobby shops, to the thousands of customers who have already purchased this product? Speaking as just one of dozens of OEM customers of Trinity, this is how my employees and I have been making our living since 1995. Like everyone else, I have a mortgage, a wife and a child to feed and many bills. I'm self-employed...If I have to close down and can't find another job, I can't just go down to the unemployment office and file for unemployment benefits. The 17.5 motor is by far the main product that puts food on my table. I am just one of hundreds, if not thousands, that this is affecting. These are people's lives and families that you are messing with, just because the wire on Trinity's 17.5 motor is .005" over your spec, which isn't even a correct spec in the first place (more on this in the following paragraphs). To say the least, this is appalling and extremely irresponsible.
As mentioned above, the wire specs that ROAR listed are simply not correct. First, the rules state that the wire size can be a maximum diameter of 20AWG or 0.813mm. This in itself is a conflicting statement. Obviously, the person who wrote this rule had no experience with AWG (American Wire Gauge) wire sizes, because if they did, they would know that all AWG wire has indisputable allowable tolerances. Furthermore, all magnet wire conforms to one universal specification, the NEMA MW1000 spec, which allows for these tolerances. Simply put, you cannot list in the rules that the wire can be 20AWG or 0.813mm in the same sentence, because it's absolutely not correct according to AWG standards and is also not grammatically correct.
As many of you know, my company has been hand winding motors for many years, from 1980 when the original owner started and then taken over by me in 1995. Please find attached a wire chart that was passed on to me from the original owner of Fantom. This is a chart that I have followed whenever a question or concern has came up regarding wire sizes. As you can see, 20AWG wire is listed as three different sizes, i.e. Minimum 0.317" (.80518mm), Nominal 0.032" (.8128mm), and Maximum .0322" (.81788mm). As you can see, tolerances are allowed by AWG standards, so it is wrong for you to list in the rules that the wire can be 20AWG and at the same time be a maximum of 0.813mm in the same sentence. There is no wire manufacturer in the world that can produce wire to the nominal size of .8128mm without an allowable tolerance. It is impossible.
In light of this situation, I also contacted the wire company that I have been purchasing wire from for many years. The company is MWS Wire Industries and my contact is Kevin McClure. His email address is: [email protected] Upon asking Kevin what the industry specifications are for 20AWG wire, here is what he replied to me:
With any wire there is always going to be a tolerance, in the case of 20 AWG, the bare copper tolerance is .0317-.0323". You won't find any wire company that can guarantee exactly .032" Bare. FYI: The overall diameter of a 20 STAI wire w/enamel is .0329-.0339".
If you would like the complete email, to confirm that I am not making this up, I will be happy to forward the entire conversation upon your request, and/or you can email Kevin direct. Please read the above reply carefully and notice that he says that "you won't find any wire company that can guarantee exactly .032" (= .8128 mm) bare wire". Also notice that the tolerances he listed are exactly as the attached chart lists them at (appears he rounded up the maximum to .0323 from .0322 if we are splitting hairs here).
I further investigated AWG wire by reviewing Wikipedia's encyclopedia definition found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_wire_gauge The first sentence reveals the following: American wire gauge (AWG), also known as the Brown & Sharpe wire gauge, is a standardized wire gauge system used since 1857 predominantly in the United States and Canada for the diameters of round, solid, nonferrous, electrically conducting wire.[1]
As you can see, AWG has been a standardized system since 1857. There is simply no arguing that AWG wire has a tolerance and this tolerance should be allowed by ROAR if you are going to put "20AWG" and the "maximum size" in the same sentence of your rules. There is nothing in this world that is produced without a tolerance...even multi-million dollar F14 fighter jets were built with tolerances. In fact, my brother-in-law is a machinist who worked on airplane parts and the tolerances were in the millionths of an inch, but they still allowed tolerances.
As a ROAR Affiliate, at this time I would also like to voice my concerns about Ron Schuur. This is nothing personal, as I do not even know him. My concerns are on a business level only. My concern is that ROAR is allowing a motor company owner (Schuur Speed) to be in charge of motor and battery approvals. If this is not a conflict of interest, I don't know what is. This would not be tolerated in any other industry and should not be tolerated in this industry. It is not right and is irresponsible for all of the other committee members to allow it.
I'm sure some of you may be interested in one of probably dozens of similar forums that I found on the Internet showing the support, or lack of support, to your decision. Here's the link: www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showthread.php?t=384615
In conclusion, it is my opinion that the Executive Committee should reinstate the D3.5 17.5 approval and publicly apologize to all of the people who's lives were dramatically affected by this irresponsible action. If ROAR wants to make the future rule state that the wire can only be a maximum of .813mm, then the rule should be rewritten grammatically correct and should eliminate any AWG wire sizes in the same sentence. Also, if a new rule is written, it should not affect current approvals, including the D3.5 17.5. As written, the current rule makes absolutely no sense and should not affect the original approval of the D3.5 17.5 motor. As mentioned above, this action has affected mine and my family's life and countless others lives. This matter needs immediate attention and needs to be resolved quickly. If it is not resolved quickly, I will join with Trinity and do everything I can to help them legally resolve this matter. I would hope as professionals, that we can all come together and resolve this situation without involving litigation. It simply comes down to that one sentence, published by ROAR, that is indisputably incorrect: "Rule 8.8.4.3.1...a maximum diameter of 20AWG or 0.813 mm per slot". This rule will not hold up under litigation.
Thank you for your time.
Regards,
Jeff Schroeder
Owner: Fantom Racing
01-18-2013, 02:15 PM
#21
Roar are just a pack of monkeys chomping on thier nuts, I think if you test most motors which the more sophisticated equipment that has just been acquired to test this motor they could be banned.
ROAR has not conducted themself in a professional manner and this product should not be off the ROAR list at this point in time, nor do I feel trinity has done wrong here.
ROAR has not conducted themself in a professional manner and this product should not be off the ROAR list at this point in time, nor do I feel trinity has done wrong here.
01-18-2013, 05:13 PM
#22
From Fantom
ADDITIONAL NEWS
Hello again Everyone,
I apologize for the second email today, but I thought that this additional information is important for our customers to know.
I have included a pic (below) that I just took of a random stator that I just destroyed this afternoon to measure the wire. This came from a shipment we just received a couple days ago. As you can see, it measures exactly at the nominal size that 20AWG wire is supposed to be, which is .032" (0.8128mm) and falls within ROAR's specifications.
Also, if you did not catch my original statement about Ron Schuur, I think it is important to mention again that he is now ROAR's motor approval person and also owns a motor company called Schuur Speed. Conflict of interest...most definitely!!! Does it not seem strange that now that he has taken over motor approvals that we are now having issues with motor approvals that have already been in the books over 10 months? Coincidence???...I don't think think so.
ROAR is supposed to make our hobby better. Is that what they are doing with this decision? It is hurting thousands of people, including many who depend on on this industry for their livelihood.
Again, we would greatly appreciate everyone's help in supporting the retraction of this ban. Please email ROAR's executive committee and let them hear your voice (links to all of them on ROAR's web site).
Thank you,
Jeff
Fantom Racing
ADDITIONAL NEWS
Hello again Everyone,
I apologize for the second email today, but I thought that this additional information is important for our customers to know.
I have included a pic (below) that I just took of a random stator that I just destroyed this afternoon to measure the wire. This came from a shipment we just received a couple days ago. As you can see, it measures exactly at the nominal size that 20AWG wire is supposed to be, which is .032" (0.8128mm) and falls within ROAR's specifications.
Also, if you did not catch my original statement about Ron Schuur, I think it is important to mention again that he is now ROAR's motor approval person and also owns a motor company called Schuur Speed. Conflict of interest...most definitely!!! Does it not seem strange that now that he has taken over motor approvals that we are now having issues with motor approvals that have already been in the books over 10 months? Coincidence???...I don't think think so.
ROAR is supposed to make our hobby better. Is that what they are doing with this decision? It is hurting thousands of people, including many who depend on on this industry for their livelihood.
Again, we would greatly appreciate everyone's help in supporting the retraction of this ban. Please email ROAR's executive committee and let them hear your voice (links to all of them on ROAR's web site).
Thank you,
Jeff
Fantom Racing
01-18-2013, 07:21 PM
#24
Not everyone goes and reads the international ep on road section of these forums.
As Jeff from Fantom mentioned this decision could have a very profound effect on many people, not just the manufactures but also the people who's job is working at those motor companies etc. This applies to other companies outside of Trinity & Fantom, as there are other companies that use the OEM motors for their own brand.
One would like to think that this discrepancy can be rectified quickly and without litigation action, which would only lead the hobby into dark times.
I believe if ROAR doesn't come to the table on this then ROAR as an organisation could be facing irrelevance within the hobby in the very near future.
Cheers
Rob.
01-18-2013, 07:26 PM
#25
The same could be said about the same thread in the ep off road international forums. http://www.rctech.net/forum/electric...egal-roar.html
Not everyone goes and reads the international ep on road section of these forums.
As Jeff from Fantom mentioned this decision could have a very profound effect on many people, not just the manufactures but also the people who's job is working at those motor companies etc. This applies to other companies outside of Trinity & Fantom, as there are other companies that use the OEM motors for their own brand.
One would like to think that this discrepancy can be rectified quickly and without litigation action, which would only lead the hobby into dark times.
I believe if ROAR doesn't come to the table on this then ROAR as an organisation could be facing irrelevance within the hobby in the very near future.
Cheers
Rob.
Not everyone goes and reads the international ep on road section of these forums.
As Jeff from Fantom mentioned this decision could have a very profound effect on many people, not just the manufactures but also the people who's job is working at those motor companies etc. This applies to other companies outside of Trinity & Fantom, as there are other companies that use the OEM motors for their own brand.
One would like to think that this discrepancy can be rectified quickly and without litigation action, which would only lead the hobby into dark times.
I believe if ROAR doesn't come to the table on this then ROAR as an organisation could be facing irrelevance within the hobby in the very near future.
Cheers
Rob.
01-18-2013, 07:41 PM
#26
Trinity got caught cheating to create a best selling motor everyone had to have, now they are throwing the usual 'rules are wrong' to justify what they did.
Every man and their dog seems to want to re-interpret a rule to create a loophole to exploit for themselves, but it's a cheat by another name.
How many other makers of motors have done the right thing, and used the right wire, yet Trinity are claiming it's a tolerance issue?
To me it looks like Trinity sought out wire gauge at the bleed edge of what was legal, to the point it's illegal when tested for tolerance, meaning they phucked up.
Every man and their dog seems to want to re-interpret a rule to create a loophole to exploit for themselves, but it's a cheat by another name.
How many other makers of motors have done the right thing, and used the right wire, yet Trinity are claiming it's a tolerance issue?
To me it looks like Trinity sought out wire gauge at the bleed edge of what was legal, to the point it's illegal when tested for tolerance, meaning they phucked up.
01-18-2013, 08:38 PM
#27
If Trinity was cheating or not isn't the issue of contention here.
It's in the eye's of some of how ROAR handled the matter by deeming the motor illegal, without giving notification to the motor companies before going "public" with it.
Hearing the news from their vendors/customers before ROAR officially informed them is something that seems unprofessional of ROAR.
I understand and agree that rules are there in place for us all to make sure no person gains an unfair & significant advantage over everyone else, rules are in place for any competition based activity.
If Trinity has been found to be cheating after having their motor approved 10 months ago, then ROAR should have notified the company first along with issuing a "grace period" to allow the company to address the issue, along with giving time for those that bought the motor to hope for a resolution or source a different motor to race.
What ever way this pans out, it's going to be an interesting time over the next few weeks.
As someone else mentioned it's going to be a difficult time for clubs & race directors for do they disallow those with the motor to race, or allow those with the motor to use them in the meantime to save them from being expensive paper weight?
Cheers
Rob.
It's in the eye's of some of how ROAR handled the matter by deeming the motor illegal, without giving notification to the motor companies before going "public" with it.
Hearing the news from their vendors/customers before ROAR officially informed them is something that seems unprofessional of ROAR.
I understand and agree that rules are there in place for us all to make sure no person gains an unfair & significant advantage over everyone else, rules are in place for any competition based activity.
If Trinity has been found to be cheating after having their motor approved 10 months ago, then ROAR should have notified the company first along with issuing a "grace period" to allow the company to address the issue, along with giving time for those that bought the motor to hope for a resolution or source a different motor to race.
What ever way this pans out, it's going to be an interesting time over the next few weeks.
As someone else mentioned it's going to be a difficult time for clubs & race directors for do they disallow those with the motor to race, or allow those with the motor to use them in the meantime to save them from being expensive paper weight?
Cheers
Rob.
01-18-2013, 09:10 PM
#28
I think it may be a case for if you have a motor then you just simply have to go and buy a new one.
It was ROAR's decision to take it off the list so Trinity will just turn around and say that it was outside their control. And if someone tries to blame Roar they will simply state that due to further testing they believe that Trinity didn't stick to the specified guidelines.
It'll just bounce back and forward and personally if I was the owner of such a motor I would simply not buy from Trinity again and look at a different supplier. Nothing says more then fighting a company with your wallet.
It was ROAR's decision to take it off the list so Trinity will just turn around and say that it was outside their control. And if someone tries to blame Roar they will simply state that due to further testing they believe that Trinity didn't stick to the specified guidelines.
It'll just bounce back and forward and personally if I was the owner of such a motor I would simply not buy from Trinity again and look at a different supplier. Nothing says more then fighting a company with your wallet.
01-18-2013, 09:10 PM
#29
I'm not so sure I agree with you there, ROAR like most governing bodies, serves the public and it's racers etc, not the companies who supply product, their first and really only duty is to it's racers.
As we have already seen, the response from the companies involved anyway has been one of looking for loopholes, and arguing tolerance issues, given the success of it being the motor everyone had to have, I suspect Trinity would have dug in it's heels either way.
Based of what I have been reading in the other thread, and how I personally view things, a company can react either of two way when faced with an issue like this, and each way reflects a lot about what went on to begin with...
One is it's a genuine mistake, maybe they ordered a truly dodgey batch of wire, and given such you apologize profusely, try to make amends in some way, and hope like hell it does not bankrupt you, while proceeding with legal action against the wire supplier who sold you the wire, that you most certainly told could not be larger than XXX size or whatever.
Two is the not so nice one, being you went out of your way to source wire that pushes the rule to the limit (it's been said what is on the motors is truly not true 20awg by industry standards), so in other words you wanted to build the motor everyone 'had' to buy to win, and you were prepared to do anything to do it, and as such your reaction to being caught out, is one of arguing phrasing of rules etc, all because you knew exactly what you were doing.
From what I read about Trinity history, they used to dominate motor manufacturing in RC at one point, I know they were not real happy when boosted was big, as it was negating many motor advantages, they were really plugging the idea of controlled motors, really trying to push their prototype non tamper-able type motor, obviously hoping like hell they could make something to be 'the' motor maker in a control motor class.
I'd say when this idea sort of fell flat and failed, they went a different way, by pushing the limits of what was there, again wanting to be 'the' motor, and they got it, but of course now they pay the price, as does the general RC public.
As we have already seen, the response from the companies involved anyway has been one of looking for loopholes, and arguing tolerance issues, given the success of it being the motor everyone had to have, I suspect Trinity would have dug in it's heels either way.
Based of what I have been reading in the other thread, and how I personally view things, a company can react either of two way when faced with an issue like this, and each way reflects a lot about what went on to begin with...
One is it's a genuine mistake, maybe they ordered a truly dodgey batch of wire, and given such you apologize profusely, try to make amends in some way, and hope like hell it does not bankrupt you, while proceeding with legal action against the wire supplier who sold you the wire, that you most certainly told could not be larger than XXX size or whatever.
Two is the not so nice one, being you went out of your way to source wire that pushes the rule to the limit (it's been said what is on the motors is truly not true 20awg by industry standards), so in other words you wanted to build the motor everyone 'had' to buy to win, and you were prepared to do anything to do it, and as such your reaction to being caught out, is one of arguing phrasing of rules etc, all because you knew exactly what you were doing.
From what I read about Trinity history, they used to dominate motor manufacturing in RC at one point, I know they were not real happy when boosted was big, as it was negating many motor advantages, they were really plugging the idea of controlled motors, really trying to push their prototype non tamper-able type motor, obviously hoping like hell they could make something to be 'the' motor maker in a control motor class.
I'd say when this idea sort of fell flat and failed, they went a different way, by pushing the limits of what was there, again wanting to be 'the' motor, and they got it, but of course now they pay the price, as does the general RC public.
01-18-2013, 09:30 PM
#30
Tech Regular
i agree with you rob.i have two of these engines. wouldn't you think the boffins in ''roar'' would have or should have measured and tested these engines before allowing them to be released. 10 months ago they were released and only now someone !!!! has made waves. maybe some conflict of interest . sorry but the horse has bolted
