Radio Active

iTrader: (2)

Perhaps an alternative to full sanctioning might be designating a class a "Support Class" as opposed to a "Demonstration Class."

The demonstration class is meant to vary from meeting to meeting to showcase something that is working well locally, or is on the threshold of National acceptance. In contrast a Support Class could run at every sanctioned Championship (or at least every State Championship) with the same rules everywhere, without Title status. Basically, the only real difference would be that it would be in the rule book so that States wouldn't have to make up their own rules for it.

Despite some of the most recent posts it still seems to me that the easiest class to get nation wide support for would be 21.5 blinky in that "3rd slot" especially if it had Support Class rather than National Championship status. Qld run this class at state series level, NSW run the class at State Series level, Victoria have a version, SA ran VTA as 21.5 blinky at their State Titles.

CraigM

iTrader: (34)

Very good point

Bishop

iTrader: (5)

Exactly, come up with two sanctioned classes for national and state, the states/clubs can always choose a single whatever as a support/demo class (Whatever is 'the' most popular at their club).

Others have mentioned 13.5 blinky, and I know a few would like to see it, really it should sit square in between everything?, and it surely tackles two issues, one being the overly large gap between blinky 17.5 and mod, and 17.5 boosted being too complicated, while possibly retaining that 17.5 boost level speed?

However, if it's anything like here (as discussed at the Qld champs), people don't seem to want either 21.5 or 17.5 dropped, regardless of how little spread there is there now (or the even larger one to mod), meaning creating a 13.5 class is in effect creating a 4th class again, which no one really wants, and likewise trying to drop down to two classes seems even harder cause 21.5 guys 'really' still want to hold onto it being a nat or state level class, so even pushing 17.5 and Mod seems really hard to do.

But, as said earlier, yeah 13.5 and Mod, then a local feeder class, two of which official, sounds nice, just hard to do.
(And having just said this again, I realize I have all the wrong gear for those classes )

davo705

What about entry level 21.5 having a fixed gear ratio, blinky and open timing- the gear ratio almost sets the pace (if it does need to be slowed down?) but also stops smoking motors by pushing the gearing too far.
Also for the beginner/ intermediate having a set FDR takes away the guess work.
-Changing to 25.5 is silly, restricting the FDR should work.

Stock- as a stepping stone to Mod- 17.5/ 13.5 boosted, open gearing/ speedy settings etc.
It may come down to being track or club dependant?
What i personally notice the most about the stock class at the moment is the lack of mid throttle power, there really is no throttle control needed. But Keefy says there is not much difference between 13.5 and 17.5 so not sure where to go there??

AND Mod as Mod- leave as is- it’s the Big boys territory and what racing should be about. SPEED!!!

The size of the track has alot to do with selection also. I would not enter stock at the big tracks, Moorebank, Whalan, Logan and WA etc.
But what to do about that?? A shorter track within the big track does one thing but not best solution.

I really like the current equipment, you can use the one speedy from blinky21.5 – stock and thru to mod with just a motor change ($100) find suitable FDR’s, add or subtract a fan and your done, the same goes for the battery...

The KISS principal should be adopted as often as possible also.

regards
David M

Radio Active

iTrader: (2)

The difficulty with fixed FDR is scrutineering. We're already at the limit of our capability teching ESCs and motors. Who wants to have to open gearboxes to make sure someone hasn't put in a diff gear with one less tooth, or trawl through manuals looking for the internal ratio?

You also have the issue that different drive trains work better with different FDRs. Shaft and belt work better at rather different ratios. I think we should try and avoid the situation where everyone has to buy an A700 to be competitive.

OLD ONE

Hi All,
It has been a pleasure to follow this thread with everyone participating
in the best interests of the sport, whether we agree or disagree with the various senarios presented.
What I would like to propose that each club where possible try to run the various classes suggested alongside existing classes so that we see some
tangible facts and figures of the difference between the various classes.

Hopefully in the near future we will be able to look at these figures from a variety of clubs and styles of tracks. I will be looking for people at Castlehill to run both 17.5 blinky and 13.5 blinky along side the current 17.5 boosted class so that we can see the actual differences between the classes, both
in time and reliability.

Regards

Bob

Bishop

iTrader: (5)

Without trying to sound dictating or condescending, we need open minds to consider what is of primary importance here, being one or two classes that while may not be 100% ideal to every track, will come close to working well at 'every' track, hence having a true popular nationally supported class (and bring us in line with places like the USA, or other countries with national classes that do so).

If that can even be just 'one' class, Australia would still be better off, so you have to ask the question, could/will something like 13.5 blinky work everywhere?, or at least enough to really make it a proper, and well used national class?

Hence back to my original sentiment, 13.5 and Mod everywhere, all clubs can possibly choose 'one' class as their 'option', this to me seems incredibility fair to all, but I'm the first to admit, I have no history in electric compared to so many, and I actually have zero experience with 13.5, having really only raced 17.5 blinky, and 10.5 blinky in recent years.

I just really think the way Au is right now, it's crazy, we have about every spec you can imagine being raced, this can't possibly be good for electric RC?
Edit: I should also just say, boosted as any national class, in my mind anyway, will just never work, as much as I'd personally love to see it, I also see it's just not popular enough in all states to work.

ta04evah

iTrader: (2)

Bob, it's interesting that you said that, as I'll be doing some testing this Fri night at Castle Hill with a 13.5 in blinky mode.

Steve has kindly offered to lend me a 13.5 motor for the night, it's also a Hobbywing which is good as I'll be able to gauge the differences between 21.5, 17.5 and 13.5 with the same brand of motor to give some consistency in the testing between the different windings.
I'll also use the results as a base line to refer to in the future. If I get the chance, I'd also like to test different motors that do have end bell timing to see if there's any advantage gained by using end bell timing & lower roll outs while set in blinky mode.

Cheers
Rob.

CraigM

iTrader: (34)

This is turning out to be a great conversation, it sounds as though the time is right and there is an appetite to sort out the current situation and do what's best for the future of EP onroad.

Thanks Bob excellent point. This is something I want to try at SMA as well. Next week I believe some of the stock (17.5 boosted) guns are trying 10.5 blinky and I'll be giving 13.5 blinky a go with them. I'd love to get some more clubs doing the same to test the different options on a variety of tracks and provide feedback here. E.g. how does the speed compare, how does the feel compare, how simple or complex is it to get a good motor setup, etc.

Bishop

iTrader: (5)

I have an used to use a Hobbywing 10.5T motor a lot, be aware they seem to have very little timing built in (made to suit boost), I ran mine up to something like a 49mm rollout at one point in blinky, it was never slow, but in comparison to my 10.5T TP drives quite differently, in part probably cause the TP seems to like around 30 degree on the end bell, and a 43mm or so rollout, and punches a fair bit harder because of that.

Personally I have always been keen to try a 13.5T (also a TP) in comparison to the 10.5T we run here, 10.5 is admittedly a little quick for some, I remember really briefly trying a 13.5 HW one night when I melted a SP some time ago, someone lent it to me for the night, I remember it being a little less aggressive, yet not all that much slower on a very tight track configuration, just a duller throttle, perhaps simular to the 17.5 blinky racing I did recently, but with more up top.

heavy

iTrader: (23)

In Qld we currently run 3 classes. 21.5 blinky, 17.5 blinky and Mod.

We recently had a considerable discussion around moving to 2 classes (17.5 blinky and mod) mainly because mostly we don't have big numbers when running 3 classes and it was thought one spec class would be good.

Subsequent to that discussion the guys that run 21.5 blinky on a week in week out basis (and it's generally eiither the largest class numerically or if not then close to it) made it clear that they weren't happy with their class being dumped and that they wanted it kept - fair enough. There remians teh question of what to do with 17.5 blinky - it was clear that the majority of drivers (not all but a clear majority) wanted to retain blinky and not move to boosted whatever the motor was.

From the comments on this thread so far it looks to me like we could nearly reach National agreement on the first class being 21.5 blinky. I reckon you could nearly win the Qld vote if the second class was proposed as 13.5 blinky and then there is Mod

Gav-

iTrader: (3)

I just wanted to throw my 2 cents in and say that one of the big things that a lot of the current stock drivers like about the 17.5 class IS the software, and working out different ESC software settings. It's one of the reasons why we run the class...

It's something you don't get in any other class, including MOD.

ta04evah

iTrader: (2)

That's why I'm partial to the Hobbywing motors because of the smoother power delivery, it can be very helpful when running on a low grip track. That being said they can also be made to perform well against other motors, the key is getting the gearing right with them.
I'm eager to test the 13.5 this week to see how it compares in blinky mode against the 17.5 I tested a couple of weeks ago, and I'll hopefully get a chance to also test a different 13.5 motor to see how much of a difference there is.

Cheers
Rob.

davo705

Totally agree! 100%

Its like cam timing, ecu settings, fuel additives, diff ratios, All the good stuff in racing.

Most of the top runners in Stock will share their esc settings and its not hard to see motor timing, gearing or brand details either.

In regards to Blinky- It has its place and it does not mean simple/ cheap! All it does is take away/ limit one parramater.
We are racing and want to go fast and beat our mates!
So you gear up, add motor timing, use too much throttle at wrong time then fan fails and theres the smoke.

Maybe its not about laptimes with classes but the feel/ throttle response etc.

Track tests are a good idea, maybe in the following weeks reports can be fed back to this forum and we go from there.

defcone

iTrader: (15)

I'm a firm supporter of this as well, if the argument is that setting up esc's is too hard, then we might as well push for racing tc classes with spec chassis with no sort of chassis change available first as that seems to be way harder than setting up esc's.