AARCMCC I.C. Off-Road Rule Proposal
10-01-2011, 01:42 AM
#16
Tech Master
I like the proposal except for the "Sportmans Class". That should have more thought.
From how I read it, it is up to the discretion of the organisers to accept a prenomination for this class. Some who enter this class may not be very happy if they get turned down.
What we are trying to do here is revitalise the State Titles. This system works very well in other countries........
If these changes are accepted the we will provide a full rewrite as Jarrod has already alluded to.
Another thing is, what if a sportman class driver makes makes it to the "A" main. If they race the Sportmans race, are they still able to race in the main event, or, do they get the choice of racing in the "A"main or the "Sportsmans" but not both.
From how I read it, it is up to the discretion of the organisers to accept a prenomination for this class. Some who enter this class may not be very happy if they get turned down.
What we are trying to do here is revitalise the State Titles. This system works very well in other countries........
If these changes are accepted the we will provide a full rewrite as Jarrod has already alluded to.
Another thing is, what if a sportman class driver makes makes it to the "A" main. If they race the Sportmans race, are they still able to race in the main event, or, do they get the choice of racing in the "A"main or the "Sportsmans" but not both.
No if they make the A-main them they would not be able to run in the sportsman final
Neither Jarrod or myself were prepared to do a complete re write of the rules until the clubs agreed to the basic changes that have been proposed.
Cheers
MArk
10-01-2011, 02:27 AM
#17
There is a list of all affiliated States:
A, B, C, D, E, F, G. So, in year 1 States A, B, C and D are due to hold State Titles. If C says, we can't hold it this year, then E fills in, C goes to the end of the list, and the list for the following year looks like: F, G, A, B, D, E, C. Meaning F, G, A and B are next in line.
If the Nationals were included as part of the same roster (to avoid the same State hosting two rounds of the series in the same year) it would go like this:
1st Year: A, B, C, D, E, F, G. Nats: A. States: B, C, D, E.
2nd Year: F, G, A, B, C, D, E. Nats: F. States: G, A, B, C.
3rd Year: D, E, F, G, A, B, C. Nats: D. States: E, F, G, A.
So to retain the same Nationals roster you'd want the current States listed in order A, F, D,... But that would only work fine until a State missed a turn, because it would then throw out of kilter who was getting a State Title, and who was getting a National Title.
A better system (perhaps the one that's already been thought of), would be to have 2 rosters, one that decides the 5 Series States, and one for the Nationals. Then of the 5 states that gets a Series round that year, the first on the Nationals roster gets a National title rather than a State Title. i.e.:
Yr 1: Nats Roster: A, B, C, D, E, F, G. Series Roster: A, B, C, D, E, F, G. Nats: A. States: B, C, D, E.
Yr 2: Nats Roster: B, C, D, E, F, G, A. Series Roster: F, G, A, B, C, D, E. Nats: B. States: F, G, A, C.
Yr 3: Nats Roster: C, D, E, F, G, A, B. Series Roster: D, E, F, G, A, B, C. Nats: D. States: E, F, G, A.
Yr 4: Nats Roster: C, E, F, G, A, B, D. Series Roster: B, C, D, E, F, G, A. Nats: C. States: B, D, E, F.
Yr 5: Nats Roster: E, F, G, A, B, D, C. Series Roster: G, A, B, C, D, E, F. Nats: G. States: A, B, C, D.
Yr 6: Nats Roster: E, F, A, B, D, C, G. Series Roster: E, F, G, A, B, C, D. Nats: E. States: F, G, A, B.
Yr 7: Nats Roster: F, A, B, D, C, G, E. Series Roster: C, D, E, F, G, A, B. Nats: F. States: C, D, E, G.
Yr 8: Nats Roster: A, B, D, C, G, E, F. Series Roster: A, B, C, D, E, F, G. Nats: A. States: B, C, D, E.
In this system if someone skips their turn (for either a State or A Nationals) and is moved to the end it won't cause a 6 year delay in any given State getting a National Championship, at most it's shifted around by a year.
10-01-2011, 05:07 AM
#18
Tech Adept
Actually, that works quite well. Hopefully we can get something similar posted as soon as the vote is passed.
Last edited by goose341; 10-01-2011 at 05:14 AM. Reason: Didnt read it all :P
10-11-2011, 01:52 PM
#20
my personal vote is NO
why should the superstars sprint for 7 mins and get a birth in the A-Main
we already have a set of rules that work for the worlds why try and re-invent the wheel.
The average buggy racer will attend their state title and if able may attend the National Titles if its held in the adjoining state.
with this proposal i cant see many average racers attending 4 state events.
looks like superstars making rules for the superstars.
from this years running AARCMCC should be focusing on
--what happens in the event of bad weather and who and when the call should be made
--running of events on a new and fair track 3 weeks prior to a state / national title
--do people bumping up have to marshall
--use of a competent race officials
--the capping of entry fees
Regards Tony Nettleton
why should the superstars sprint for 7 mins and get a birth in the A-Main
we already have a set of rules that work for the worlds why try and re-invent the wheel.
The average buggy racer will attend their state title and if able may attend the National Titles if its held in the adjoining state.
with this proposal i cant see many average racers attending 4 state events.
looks like superstars making rules for the superstars.
from this years running AARCMCC should be focusing on
--what happens in the event of bad weather and who and when the call should be made
--running of events on a new and fair track 3 weeks prior to a state / national title
--do people bumping up have to marshall
--use of a competent race officials
--the capping of entry fees
Regards Tony Nettleton
10-11-2011, 07:30 PM
#21
my personal vote is NO
why should the superstars sprint for 7 mins and get a birth in the A-Main
we already have a set of rules that work for the worlds why try and re-invent the wheel.
The average buggy racer will attend their state title and if able may attend the National Titles if its held in the adjoining state.
with this proposal i cant see many average racers attending 4 state events.
looks like superstars making rules for the superstars.
from this years running AARCMCC should be focusing on
--what happens in the event of bad weather and who and when the call should be made
--running of events on a new and fair track 3 weeks prior to a state / national title
--do people bumping up have to marshall
--use of a competent race officials
--the capping of entry fees
Regards Tony Nettleton
why should the superstars sprint for 7 mins and get a birth in the A-Main
we already have a set of rules that work for the worlds why try and re-invent the wheel.
The average buggy racer will attend their state title and if able may attend the National Titles if its held in the adjoining state.
with this proposal i cant see many average racers attending 4 state events.
looks like superstars making rules for the superstars.
from this years running AARCMCC should be focusing on
--what happens in the event of bad weather and who and when the call should be made
--running of events on a new and fair track 3 weeks prior to a state / national title
--do people bumping up have to marshall
--use of a competent race officials
--the capping of entry fees
Regards Tony Nettleton
the races are 7 mins so as to fit into a 3 day sheduale... not so superstars can out sprint anyone.. as Most "superstars normally still do well over 10 mins"
Un the USA all of there nationals and major event are run the same as our new rule proposal.
Our national championships will still stay the same as
ifmar.
10-11-2011, 08:03 PM
#22
I may be wrong but from my understanding of the proposal it's been set out as to encourage more of your 'average' drivers to attend state title meets... It gives people more time to save money for expenses and gives people more leeway for taking time off work and other commitments. I think four 3 day events per year will definatly encourage more attendance. I for one will definatly be attending more titles if the proposal is passed. I struggle enough keeping up with the costs of racing let alone saving money for flights and accomodation etc. Apprentice wages suck!
10-11-2011, 08:06 PM
#23
Tech Fanatic
It has been proved, from the last two years, that a 3 day event can be done with 10 mins. qual..
When and if the numbers of entries will increase at State Title i think just then we can talk about cutting the track time.
When and if the numbers of entries will increase at State Title i think just then we can talk about cutting the track time.
10-11-2011, 08:55 PM
#24
I've been speaking to one Nitro Racer from my club who is also concerned about the possibility of the drivers in the pre-graded A qualifying straight through to the Main Final virtually every time. They feel that part of the appeal for the average racer of a State Title is getting to run with the big guns, and that with this proposal they may not get to. Or at least they only will if they bump up into the main. There is also the feeling that you should be able to prove yourself as a racer to make the Main, not just a qualifier.
I have noticed though that there is nothing in the regulations that says drivers should be pre-graded (or at least I can't find it). So, if the drivers were spread through the heats randomly or deliberately seeded into different heats this would resolve one half of that concern. Any comments?
10-11-2011, 09:00 PM
#25
Tech Master
my personal vote is NO
why should the superstars sprint for 7 mins and get a birth in the A-Main
My question is why shouldn't they......... why have qualifying and then say to the top 16............ Oh by the way guys you have to though another 20 to 30mins of qualifying to get where you have already qualified. We don't make any other drivers do that. Imagine if we said to the drivers who made the quarters, "hey guys you gotta run the lower final (the 1/8) before you can run your quarter (the one you qualified for) and if you break or fail in the lower final you are out
we already have a set of rules that work for the worlds why try and re-invent the wheel.
Good point but in reality numbers a falling dramatically and we felt the need to try something new, if it doesn't work we can always go back to the old system
The average buggy racer will attend their state title and if able may attend the National Titles if its held in the adjoining state.
This is correct but unless we try change we will never know
with this proposal i cant see many average racers attending 4 state events.
Nor can I, however, we might get them to 2 or 3 because of the new formatt rather than 1 or 2
looks like superstars making rules for the superstars.
Guess so but I don't see anyone else putting there hands up
from this years running AARCMCC should be focusing on
--what happens in the event of bad weather and who and when the call should be made.
All good points but you gotta get people there first
--running of events on a new and fair track 3 weeks prior to a state / national title
I believe we have already covered this off in the new rules, I don't understand your question
--do people bumping up have to marshall
No
--use of a competent race officials
You offering Tony????
--the capping of entry fees
I can not believe how much discussion there is on entry fees, this would have to be the cheapest part of the sport....... I believe entry fees should go up
Regards Tony Nettleton
why should the superstars sprint for 7 mins and get a birth in the A-Main
My question is why shouldn't they......... why have qualifying and then say to the top 16............ Oh by the way guys you have to though another 20 to 30mins of qualifying to get where you have already qualified. We don't make any other drivers do that. Imagine if we said to the drivers who made the quarters, "hey guys you gotta run the lower final (the 1/8) before you can run your quarter (the one you qualified for) and if you break or fail in the lower final you are out
we already have a set of rules that work for the worlds why try and re-invent the wheel.
Good point but in reality numbers a falling dramatically and we felt the need to try something new, if it doesn't work we can always go back to the old system
The average buggy racer will attend their state title and if able may attend the National Titles if its held in the adjoining state.
This is correct but unless we try change we will never know
with this proposal i cant see many average racers attending 4 state events.
Nor can I, however, we might get them to 2 or 3 because of the new formatt rather than 1 or 2
looks like superstars making rules for the superstars.
Guess so but I don't see anyone else putting there hands up
from this years running AARCMCC should be focusing on
--what happens in the event of bad weather and who and when the call should be made.
All good points but you gotta get people there first
--running of events on a new and fair track 3 weeks prior to a state / national title
I believe we have already covered this off in the new rules, I don't understand your question
--do people bumping up have to marshall
No
--use of a competent race officials
You offering Tony????
--the capping of entry fees
I can not believe how much discussion there is on entry fees, this would have to be the cheapest part of the sport....... I believe entry fees should go up
Regards Tony Nettleton
Mark Stringer
10-11-2011, 09:02 PM
#26
Tech Master
Thinking about the timings more carefully reveals that even if the meetings were at capacity, you could still run Christmas Tree finals for 3 day events just by cutting the qualifying to 7 minutes, and axing one heat in a pinch.
I've been speaking to one Nitro Racer from my club who is also concerned about the possibility of the drivers in the pre-graded A qualifying straight through to the Main Final virtually every time. They feel that part of the appeal for the average racer of a State Title is getting to run with the big guns, and that with this proposal they may not get to. Or at least they only will if they bump up into the main. There is also the feeling that you should be able to prove yourself as a racer to make the Main, not just a qualifier.
I have noticed though that there is nothing in the regulations that says drivers should be pre-graded (or at least I can't find it). So, if the drivers were spread through the heats randomly or deliberately seeded into different heats this would resolve one half of that concern. Any comments?
I've been speaking to one Nitro Racer from my club who is also concerned about the possibility of the drivers in the pre-graded A qualifying straight through to the Main Final virtually every time. They feel that part of the appeal for the average racer of a State Title is getting to run with the big guns, and that with this proposal they may not get to. Or at least they only will if they bump up into the main. There is also the feeling that you should be able to prove yourself as a racer to make the Main, not just a qualifier.
I have noticed though that there is nothing in the regulations that says drivers should be pre-graded (or at least I can't find it). So, if the drivers were spread through the heats randomly or deliberately seeded into different heats this would resolve one half of that concern. Any comments?
Cheers
Mark
10-11-2011, 10:06 PM
#27
Tech Fanatic
Hi Mark,
sorry, but i don t understand your first answer to Tony.
You say that the first 10 qual. deserve to go straight to the A finals because they don t have to do another 20 mins. qual. to get where they have already qualified.
Why the other 5 drivers on the list don t deserve to go straight in the A final, like the first 10, but they have to do another 20 mins. qual. to get where they have already qualified?
Or all or none.
sorry, but i don t understand your first answer to Tony.
You say that the first 10 qual. deserve to go straight to the A finals because they don t have to do another 20 mins. qual. to get where they have already qualified.
Why the other 5 drivers on the list don t deserve to go straight in the A final, like the first 10, but they have to do another 20 mins. qual. to get where they have already qualified?
Or all or none.
10-11-2011, 10:55 PM
#28
Tech Master
Hi Mark,
sorry, but i don t understand your first answer to Tony.
You say that the first 10 qual. deserve to go straight to the A finals because they don t have to do another 20 mins. qual. to get where they have already qualified.
Why the other 5 drivers on the list don t deserve to go straight in the A final, like the first 10, but they have to do another 20 mins. qual. to get where they have already qualified?
Or all or none.
sorry, but i don t understand your first answer to Tony.
You say that the first 10 qual. deserve to go straight to the A finals because they don t have to do another 20 mins. qual. to get where they have already qualified.
Why the other 5 drivers on the list don t deserve to go straight in the A final, like the first 10, but they have to do another 20 mins. qual. to get where they have already qualified?
Or all or none.
Currently if you make the top 16 after qualifying you are disadvantaged compared say to someone who qualified in 17th.
The reason the first 10 would go in is that you have to have a cutoff somewhere, currently we use 8 per final with 4 to bump.
If it was 12 car finals then 8 would bump, just like now with the chritmas tree system we use now someone will always just miss the 1/4 of that 1/8 final because of their position.
The only other option would to be adopt the electric system where there are no bumps at all............but everyone we spoke to hated that idea
With have a bump system you still give someone who has had a bad qualifing a chance to bump
Cheers
Mark
10-11-2011, 10:56 PM
#29
Personally not a big fan of it.
I feel that 7 minute qualifiers will take a aspect of the sport that is IC Offroad. I own electrics and race them, however, IC requires more skill, more strategy, and more maintenance ability on top of the noise and smoke etc (think tuning ability, fuel strategy, the option to go for power vs run time etc etc). 7 minute qualifiers take away from this.
I think it should be 12 to 15 in finals dependant on numbers.
I can see the drop from 4 to 3 days being both a positive thing and a negative thing. Pro: easier to get time off work Con: The impact on not as proficient drivers is that they only essentially get 2 days racing instead of 3 (yes I am a pretty average driver but without average drivers, this would not still be a sport).
When I go away to race, if I fork at $70 for entry, plus fuel, plus tires, plus transport, plus accomodation... sorry but I want 3 days of racing.
I would like it to be a little more transparent of what the fee's involve, what do they quantify, how does this impact the value for money I get and what do others get. I race typically 2-3 sanctioned events per year, being 3 days against being 4 days will have no impact as to what I can attend. I feel that those that want to attend more than 2 rounds will attend regardless of time taken, purely because those that do are passionate about their sport no matter the level of driver.
This is only a personal opinion and I will continue to race, because I love this sport, enjoy the company of those that attend these race meets and its my escape from reality. When I am trackside, nothing else matters but racing and being in the moment!
I feel that 7 minute qualifiers will take a aspect of the sport that is IC Offroad. I own electrics and race them, however, IC requires more skill, more strategy, and more maintenance ability on top of the noise and smoke etc (think tuning ability, fuel strategy, the option to go for power vs run time etc etc). 7 minute qualifiers take away from this.
I think it should be 12 to 15 in finals dependant on numbers.
I can see the drop from 4 to 3 days being both a positive thing and a negative thing. Pro: easier to get time off work Con: The impact on not as proficient drivers is that they only essentially get 2 days racing instead of 3 (yes I am a pretty average driver but without average drivers, this would not still be a sport).
When I go away to race, if I fork at $70 for entry, plus fuel, plus tires, plus transport, plus accomodation... sorry but I want 3 days of racing.
I would like it to be a little more transparent of what the fee's involve, what do they quantify, how does this impact the value for money I get and what do others get. I race typically 2-3 sanctioned events per year, being 3 days against being 4 days will have no impact as to what I can attend. I feel that those that want to attend more than 2 rounds will attend regardless of time taken, purely because those that do are passionate about their sport no matter the level of driver.
This is only a personal opinion and I will continue to race, because I love this sport, enjoy the company of those that attend these race meets and its my escape from reality. When I am trackside, nothing else matters but racing and being in the moment!
10-11-2011, 10:57 PM
#30
I think the first ten going into the main is a good thing. Ultimately, we have spent two days proving that they are the top 10 so there should be some reward.
Now on the next five places that you mention we need to look back to our R/C heritage. Back in the day, electric offroad had 8 or ten cars direct into the A final and so on back through the field. The B final in particular was always a bit of a joke as it contained highly motivated individuals who no longer had the opportunity to aim for the top. By allowing five bump ups, there is always the opportunity to advance further.
This is a good compromise for rewarding the fast qualifiers as well as those who race well.
Mauve, I think the number of days racing is for the "sportsman" and the "pro" is the same. From the "pros" point of view, Saturday is almost a complete waste of time as there is often only one qualifier on that day and no finals action at all - so they are in the same boat as you, you just complete your finals earlier in the program.
Now on the next five places that you mention we need to look back to our R/C heritage. Back in the day, electric offroad had 8 or ten cars direct into the A final and so on back through the field. The B final in particular was always a bit of a joke as it contained highly motivated individuals who no longer had the opportunity to aim for the top. By allowing five bump ups, there is always the opportunity to advance further.
This is a good compromise for rewarding the fast qualifiers as well as those who race well.
Mauve, I think the number of days racing is for the "sportsman" and the "pro" is the same. From the "pros" point of view, Saturday is almost a complete waste of time as there is often only one qualifier on that day and no finals action at all - so they are in the same boat as you, you just complete your finals earlier in the program.
