How will the rise of Electric power in full scale cars effect RC?
04-04-2011, 10:31 PM
#16
Who funds the CSIRO?? I pay your bills you tell me what i want to hear, is the case here.
Now listen to this,
http://www.2gb.com/index2.php?option...k=view&id=8563
Now listen to this,
http://www.2gb.com/index2.php?option...k=view&id=8563
I have worked with some CSIRO scientists. My PhD co-supervisor now holds an important position at the CSIRO Energy Technology Centre in Newcastle. I can tell you that whilst government has some say over the direction CSIRO research takes, it has no say in their findings.
Scientists make much less money than similarly qualified people in other fields. Mostly we do this kind of work because we are interested in progressing knowledge. Corrupting the results of research runs completely counter to that ideal. If we were interested in a pay-cheque we'd do something else, so what is convenient for a scientists employer isn't going to have much of an effect.
Scientific integrity is such that research journals will publish any piece of work that can bee reasonably backed by the data presented. People sometimes have different interpretations of the same data, as does Dr. Christy. The majority of climate scientists, including the other members of the IPCC panel on which he sat are in disagreement with him.
The work I am currently doing is in analysing the atmospheres of other planets. In the past I have done a small amount of climate work looking at if the solar (sun spot) cycle effects rainfall in parts of Australia (it doesn't seem to). The point of bringing this up is that this experience has given me confidence in the climate models being used and the way the research is undertaken. The findings of the majority are convincing. Furthermore, whilst it is difficult to forecast specific trends due to the complicated nature of the atmosphere, broad trends are easier. You can liken this to it being hard to say if it will rain tomorrow in Sydney, but being sure that it will be warmer in Summer than in Winter.
I'm sure Dr. Christy was simplifying some of his arguments. However, as an example, consider this: he says that current carbon dioxide levels are currently raising the temperature at the rate of 1 degree a century. But the amount of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere is increasing. The atmospheric level of carbon dioxide rose from about 280 ppm in 1800 to 386 ppm in 2009, and is currently increasing at nearly 2 ppm per year. Even if we were to assume the response of the atmosphere were linear to carbon dioxide, which it isn't, the current rate of increase, assuming Dr. Christy's figure would be 2 degrees a century in 50 years.
Dr. Christy spends a lot of time saying that we can't cool the atmosphere back down with the action we are taking – and that's true. But what he doesn't say is that if we don't take action it will become increasingly worse. He also says that developing countries like China will continue to use available Coal and that is the biggest factor in warming.
He seems not to have realised that China has begun to take action. In its National Climate Change Program, China set an objective to lower its energy consumption per unit of GDP by 20 percent or so of 2005 level by 2010 and in its Mid- and Long-Term Plan for the Development of Renewable Energy, China also sets an objective of increasing the proportion of renewable energy in the primary energy mix to 10 percent by 2010, and to 15 percent by 2020. And they were just the initial steps, which I would have thought Dr. Christy would have been aware of.
So, there is soon to be a huge market in China for renewable energy technologies. If we actually start developing them at a decent rate – a rate that will be increased by adopting a carbon price that drives industry to invest in renewable technologies – we could be benefiting economically. China is one of our biggest export markets after all. Indeed they buy a massive chunk of our coal. How is our economy going to do if they don't need our coal any more and we have no income stream to replace it with?
2 or 3 degrees doesn't sound like much, but that's the average temperature. Consider that there is a big difference between the crops that are grown in regions with this separation in average temperature right now. And that's before we take into account what other weather patterns will be disrupted by that sort of temperature change. A strong agriculture centre relies on predictable stable weather.
Here is a small except from the CSIRO's report, which you will note, happily displays some predicted positives from increased carbon dioxide in the atmosphere (contrary to your assertion that scientists will write what they are paid do):
Agriculture and forestry
Unlike most other sectors, where there are few positive impacts of climate change, agriculture and forestry is different because plants can respond positively to higher concentrations of CO2 in the atmosphere. Higher levels of CO2 increase the rate of photosynthesis and improve the efficiency of water use in plants, hence stimulating plant growth (known as CO2 fertilisation). Experiments where CO2 concentrations have been increased by around 50% (to approximately 550 ppm) have produced growth increases of around 15% in crops and 10–50% in tropical savanna grasses. In studies where CO2 has been increased up to 700 ppm, wheat yields have risen by 10–50%, cotton biomass by 35%, whole boll yields by 40%, and lint yields by 60%. Data supporting these conclusions have been collected in major field experiment studies in Australia (Wheat FACE experiment at Horsham in Victoria and OZFace experiment in Townsville, Queensland – see Figure 4.3).
However, the positive effects of CO2 can be more than offset by accompanying changes in temperature, precipitation, pests, and the availability of nutrients. As a consequence, production from cropping and livestock is projected to decline by 2030 over much of southern Australia due
to increased drought and the fact that the availability of nutrients will limit productivity in most Australian landscapes. Heat and drought are likely to reduce the quality of grain, grape, vegetable, fruit, and other crops. A 20% reduction in rainfall could reduce pasture productivity by 15%, and livestock weight gain by 12%, which would substantially reduce farm income. There is likely to be a southward movement of pests and diseases as the southern regions warm. The forestry and plantation industries are likely to face greater risk of fire.
There are likely to be some additional positive effects beyond that of CO2 fertilisation, such as a likely reduction in frost, and the prospect of longer growing seasons for some crops. See Chapter 7 and the CSIRO report Adapting Agriculture to Climate Change for a discussion of the adaptation
options for agriculture, and Chapter 5 for a general discussion of the issue of adaptation.
Unlike most other sectors, where there are few positive impacts of climate change, agriculture and forestry is different because plants can respond positively to higher concentrations of CO2 in the atmosphere. Higher levels of CO2 increase the rate of photosynthesis and improve the efficiency of water use in plants, hence stimulating plant growth (known as CO2 fertilisation). Experiments where CO2 concentrations have been increased by around 50% (to approximately 550 ppm) have produced growth increases of around 15% in crops and 10–50% in tropical savanna grasses. In studies where CO2 has been increased up to 700 ppm, wheat yields have risen by 10–50%, cotton biomass by 35%, whole boll yields by 40%, and lint yields by 60%. Data supporting these conclusions have been collected in major field experiment studies in Australia (Wheat FACE experiment at Horsham in Victoria and OZFace experiment in Townsville, Queensland – see Figure 4.3).
However, the positive effects of CO2 can be more than offset by accompanying changes in temperature, precipitation, pests, and the availability of nutrients. As a consequence, production from cropping and livestock is projected to decline by 2030 over much of southern Australia due
to increased drought and the fact that the availability of nutrients will limit productivity in most Australian landscapes. Heat and drought are likely to reduce the quality of grain, grape, vegetable, fruit, and other crops. A 20% reduction in rainfall could reduce pasture productivity by 15%, and livestock weight gain by 12%, which would substantially reduce farm income. There is likely to be a southward movement of pests and diseases as the southern regions warm. The forestry and plantation industries are likely to face greater risk of fire.
There are likely to be some additional positive effects beyond that of CO2 fertilisation, such as a likely reduction in frost, and the prospect of longer growing seasons for some crops. See Chapter 7 and the CSIRO report Adapting Agriculture to Climate Change for a discussion of the adaptation
options for agriculture, and Chapter 5 for a general discussion of the issue of adaptation.
Maybe now we can get back to RC.
04-04-2011, 10:55 PM
#17
thanks for doing me courtesy and assuming that i'm a reasonable and intelligent person, however that's always questionable according to my Dr., yes i'll give it a look over when i have some spare time or we could've discussed it at the CC round at Casso as i was sitting next to you 
04-04-2011, 11:13 PM
#19
04-04-2011, 11:15 PM
#20
Back to the electric car, have look at this doco. I saw it on Foxtel a few months back and although the story is very one sided, it is still interesting.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_Kil...lectric_Car%3F
04-04-2011, 11:29 PM
#21
Should be renamed the "X Files Thread"
Back to the electric car, have look at this doco. I saw it on Foxtel a few months back and although the story is very one sided, it is still interesting.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_Kil...lectric_Car%3F
Back to the electric car, have look at this doco. I saw it on Foxtel a few months back and although the story is very one sided, it is still interesting.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_Kil...lectric_Car%3F
04-04-2011, 11:58 PM
#22
You want to talk green house problems, overpopulation, polution,etc. Watch a1973 movie called "Soylent Green", it explains all.
04-05-2011, 03:15 AM
#23
(Quote from Futurama episode "30% Iron Chef")Classic movie and very under rated. I am surprised they havent tried to make a remake. I bought the DVD a couple years back.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soylent_Green
04-05-2011, 04:42 AM
#26
On the environment thing, even if after overwhelming evidence you still don't believe in climate change then why not look at alternative energy from these perspectives:
So even if climate change is bunkum, aren't the changes that the scientists suggest a good idea economically and as a general improvement to the air we share?
Oh and for the grammar Nazis:
there /ðɛər; unstressed ðər/ Show Spelled
[thair; unstressed ther] Show IPA
–adverb
1. in or at that place ( opposed to here): She is there now.
2. at that point in an action, speech, etc.: He stopped there for applause.
3. in that matter, particular, or respect: His anger was justified there.
4. into or to that place; thither: We went there last year.
5. (used by way of calling attention to something or someone): There they go.
6. in or at that place where you are: Well, hi there.
–pronoun
7. (used to introduce a sentence or clause in which the verb comes before its subject or has no complement): There is no hope.
8. that place: He comes from there, too.
9. that point.
–noun
10. that state or condition: I'll introduce you to her, but you're on your own from there on.
–adjective
11. (used for emphasis, especially after a noun modified by a demonstrative adjective): Ask that man there.
–interjection
12. (used to express satisfaction, relief, encouragement, approval, consolation, etc.): There! It's done.
their /ðɛər; unstressed ðər/ Show Spelled
[thair; unstressed ther] Show IPA
–pronoun
1. a form of the possessive case of they used as an attributive adjective, before a noun: their home; their rights as citizens; their departure for Rome.
2. (used after an indefinite singular antecedent in place of the definite masculine form his or the definite feminine form her ): Someone left their book on the table. Did everyone bring their lunch?
Origin:
1150–1200; Middle English < Old Norse theirra their; replacing Old English thāra, thǣra; compare they
—Can be confused: their, there, they're (see usage note at there).
they're /ðɛər; unstressed ðər/
[thair; unstressed ther]
contraction of they are.
—Can be confused: their, there, they're (see usage note at there).
Got that off my chest!
Oh and did somebody reference 2GB as a credible source?!
- We are running out of oil, fact. So we need to find alternative forms of energy to run 90% of the worlds mechanical transport. Electricity is the most obvious method, although hydrogen could also turn out to be the answer.
- If all the transport and other devices that currently use oil as a fuel change to electricity we will need to generate more.
- Eventually sustainable energy will be far cheaper than burning coal, in fact it is pretty close now, there is just a massive infrastructure cost which will help build economies. So it makes sense economically.
- Wouldn't you prefer to live in a city that didn't have a brown haze that hung over it everyday?
- If you were given the choice between leaving a cleaner more sustainable world for your children's, children's children or even the slightest possibilty that in 200 years time the world won't be able to sustain them wouldn't you go with cleaner, simpler alternative, even though it might cause a small amount of pain to you.
- In the past 200 years or so there have been many things that have radically changed economies and most of these haven't been planned for and yet the big economies still manage to get through it in a relatively short period of time (fall of the British Empire, WW1, WW2, Cold War etc) and most of these disasters have made the capitalist economies stronger in the long run because capitalism has to find opportunity in adversity in order to survive.
So even if climate change is bunkum, aren't the changes that the scientists suggest a good idea economically and as a general improvement to the air we share?
Oh and for the grammar Nazis:
there /ðɛər; unstressed ðər/ Show Spelled
[thair; unstressed ther] Show IPA
–adverb
1. in or at that place ( opposed to here): She is there now.
2. at that point in an action, speech, etc.: He stopped there for applause.
3. in that matter, particular, or respect: His anger was justified there.
4. into or to that place; thither: We went there last year.
5. (used by way of calling attention to something or someone): There they go.
6. in or at that place where you are: Well, hi there.
–pronoun
7. (used to introduce a sentence or clause in which the verb comes before its subject or has no complement): There is no hope.
8. that place: He comes from there, too.
9. that point.
–noun
10. that state or condition: I'll introduce you to her, but you're on your own from there on.
–adjective
11. (used for emphasis, especially after a noun modified by a demonstrative adjective): Ask that man there.
–interjection
12. (used to express satisfaction, relief, encouragement, approval, consolation, etc.): There! It's done.
their /ðɛər; unstressed ðər/ Show Spelled
[thair; unstressed ther] Show IPA
–pronoun
1. a form of the possessive case of they used as an attributive adjective, before a noun: their home; their rights as citizens; their departure for Rome.
2. (used after an indefinite singular antecedent in place of the definite masculine form his or the definite feminine form her ): Someone left their book on the table. Did everyone bring their lunch?
Origin:
1150–1200; Middle English < Old Norse theirra their; replacing Old English thāra, thǣra; compare they
—Can be confused: their, there, they're (see usage note at there).
they're /ðɛər; unstressed ðər/
[thair; unstressed ther]
contraction of they are.
—Can be confused: their, there, they're (see usage note at there).
Got that off my chest!
Oh and did somebody reference 2GB as a credible source?!
04-05-2011, 05:11 AM
#27
"mmmm Soylent Green, now thats my kind of people" (Quote from Futurama episode "30% Iron Chef")
Classic movie and very under rated. I am surprised they havent tried to make a remake. I bought the DVD a couple years back.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soylent_Green
(Quote from Futurama episode "30% Iron Chef")Classic movie and very under rated. I am surprised they havent tried to make a remake. I bought the DVD a couple years back.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soylent_Green
http://www.moviesonline.ca/movienews_1741.html
04-18-2011, 12:45 AM
#28
Tech Adept
Screw the environment, I dont have any kids so why should I care, bring it on I say, I like the warmer weather and there are far... far... to many people on the planet anyway.
You scientist should develop a Kalisi virus to help cull the population boom.
You scientist should develop a Kalisi virus to help cull the population boom.
04-18-2011, 01:54 AM
#29
Warmer enviroment???
In Adelaide we have just had the coldest and wettest March ever.
Waht happened to all the other theories, about the magnetic poles changing, the axis of the earth moving in relation to rotation around the sun, or the good one I heard the other day. The moon's orbit moving 5cm further away from the earth ever year, and will one leave the Earth's orbit, thus, ther will be no more tidal flow of sea water.
and let us not forget December 21, 2010. the end of the Mayan calendar
In Adelaide we have just had the coldest and wettest March ever.
Waht happened to all the other theories, about the magnetic poles changing, the axis of the earth moving in relation to rotation around the sun, or the good one I heard the other day. The moon's orbit moving 5cm further away from the earth ever year, and will one leave the Earth's orbit, thus, ther will be no more tidal flow of sea water.
and let us not forget December 21, 2010. the end of the Mayan calendar
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