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AARCMCC EP ON-ROAD Class Proposals for 2011

AARCMCC EP ON-ROAD Class Proposals for 2011

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Old 08-16-2010, 05:26 AM
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Default AARCMCC EP ON-ROAD Class Proposals for 2011

There has been a great deal of discussion and debate both here and in many other locations about future classes for EP On-Road racing.

In particular interest has focussed on spec classes, with many believing that the recent advances in brushless motor and particularly ESC technology have resulted in "Stock" and "Super Stock" classes that are either too fast for their intended purpose, too complex for the intended purpose, or in some cases too expensive for their intended purpose.

Spec classes are designed to provide close, competitive, affordable racing for mainstream racers who either don't wish, or are not able to budget, skill, equipment or other reasons to race "Modified" classes.

The advent of turbo/dynamic timing ESC's has resulted in speeds that far exceed previous norms for spec classes, with setup procedures that are complex (and in some cases require laptop computers trackside), are hard on equipment, including motors if settings are wrong. The performance gap between those who have turbo/dynamic timing ESC's and those who do not has become significant and problematic.

AARCMCC have just released a set of OPTIONS to begin discussion among member clubs, and to work towards establishing a new set of class guidelines for EP ONROAD for 2011.

In addition AARCMCC are about to release a new set of draft racing and technical rules for EP Onroad racing. I understand these draft rules will be published in a seperate thread for comment.

The OPTIONS proposed by AARCMCC for classes for EP On-Road for 2011 are:
AARCMCC EP Onroad Options


We have discussed 3 possible options:

Option 1 Ė Strongest option
  • 17.5 or 21.5 open motor, zero timing ESC (comprising either a banned ESC short list or a short list of allowed ESCís)
  • 17.5 Open Motor, open ESC
  • Modified
  • Tamiya Mini
  • 12th Open 1S

Option 2
  • 17.5 Open Motor, open ESC
  • Modified
  • Tamiya Mini
  • 12th Open 1S

Option 3
  • 17.5 Open Motor, open ESC (split into an A and B group, run as separate classes based on skill level, determined on an F1 Style of x% over TQ times)
  • Modified
  • Tamiya Mini
  • 12th Open 1S

Each has their benefits and drawbacks, Option 1 appears to be the best fit for our current needs.


We also need to be wary to stay away from the historical class designations like Stock, Super Stock and Mod, as this implies too many preconceptions.


We are wary of the ROAR style ESC profile approach, given feedback from event co-ordinators regarding scrutineering issues, and perceived variance between brands, software upgrade impacts etc.

A banned shortlist would look something like:
- Tekin RS and RS Pro
- All variants of the Hobbywing V2 (SP GT v2, HW V2, Venom V2 etc)
- Hobbywing Extreme Stock
- LRP SXX SS
- Black Diamond
- Team Wave (RB series)

Or

A Shortlist of allowed speedies could look something like
- HW Justock
- SP Cirtix
- Novak GTB
- Novak Havoc
- LRP Sphere (07 and TC spec)

AARCMCC are keen to see some discussion, feedback and response to these proposed options before distributing them to clubs in the coming weeks. I understand that the hope for AARCMCC is to reach agreement at an AGM conducted in conjunction with this year's EP Onroad Nats (Bendigo, November).

Speaking personally I think the first option has a lot going for it. It provides for those with turbo/dynamic timing ESC's to continue to use their equipment in a class for that purpose. I'd think 17.5 motors with open ESC's would provide performance something similar to the Super STock class of previous years.

A more controlled class for 17.5 will provide that close, affordable, (and manageable technically) racing that spec racers seem to be craving. My personal preference would be for a short list of allowed ESC's - but I'd be in favour of the proposal either way.

So, over to you. What do you think? What do you like about the options? Where do you think they fall short?

And one final personal plea......let's keep this conversation positive, creative and focussed on providing good quality feedback to AARCMCC so that the final options that are proposed to clubs (who'll actually MAKE the decision) are the best options available.


your thoughts......?
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Old 08-16-2010, 05:42 AM
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Originally Posted by scott_g View Post
There has been a great deal of discussion and debate both here and in many other locations about future classes for EP On-Road racing.

In particular interest has focussed on spec classes, with many believing that the recent advances in brushless motor and particularly ESC technology have resulted in "Stock" and "Super Stock" classes that are either too fast for their intended purpose, too complex for the intended purpose, or in some cases too expensive for their intended purpose.

Spec classes are designed to provide close, competitive, affordable racing for mainstream racers who either don't wish, or are not able to budget, skill, equipment or other reasons to race "Modified" classes.

The advent of turbo/dynamic timing ESC's has resulted in speeds that far exceed previous norms for spec classes, with setup procedures that are complex (and in some cases require laptop computers trackside), are hard on equipment, including motors if settings are wrong. The performance gap between those who have turbo/dynamic timing ESC's and those who do not has become significant and problematic.

AARCMCC have just released a set of OPTIONS to begin discussion among member clubs, and to work towards establishing a new set of class guidelines for EP ONROAD for 2011.

In addition AARCMCC are about to release a new set of draft racing and technical rules for EP Onroad racing. I understand these draft rules will be published in a seperate thread for comment.

The OPTIONS proposed by AARCMCC for classes for EP On-Road for 2011 are:

AARCMCC are keen to see some discussion, feedback and response to these proposed options before distributing them to clubs in the coming weeks. I understand that the hope for AARCMCC is to reach agreement at an AGM conducted in conjunction with this year's EP Onroad Nats (Bendigo, November).

Speaking personally I think the first option has a lot going for it. It provides for those with turbo/dynamic timing ESC's to continue to use their equipment in a class for that purpose. I'd think 17.5 motors with open ESC's would provide performance something similar to the Super STock class of previous years.

A more controlled class for 17.5 will provide that close, affordable, (and manageable technically) racing that spec racers seem to be craving. My personal preference would be for a short list of allowed ESC's - but I'd be in favour of the proposal either way.

So, over to you. What do you think? What do you like about the options? Where do you think they fall short?

And one final personal plea......let's keep this conversation positive, creative and focussed on providing good quality feedback to AARCMCC so that the final options that are proposed to clubs (who'll actually MAKE the decision) are the best options available.


your thoughts......?
Option 1, With open 21.5 and open stock. This would be suit the majority out there. The move from 21.5 - Stock would be easier with open esc's, and same from 17.5 - Mod.

With 10.5 it will be good to see if alot of the gun 10.5's drop back and become trophy hunters
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Old 08-16-2010, 05:44 AM
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Option 1 with 21.5 zero timing ESC with ALLOWED ESC LIST. I think an ALLOWED list will provide better clarity as to what you can use and although it will be massive (assuming it includes ESC combo's in RTR's like the traxxas system) it also prevents an unknown sneaking in. It is stupid to expect people to tech a zero timing profile on any dynamic ESC and this solves that whole problem and provides a entry level class.

Originally Posted by kid TT-01
With 10.5 it will be good to see if alot of the gun 10.5's drop back and become trophy hunters
I would consider it if thats where the racing is plus modern modified destroys most TC's in a couple of runs.
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Old 08-16-2010, 05:44 AM
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My first thought is that an allowed list (whitelist) is a superior concept to a disallowed list (blacklist).

If you have a blacklist, then as soon as something new comes along it is technically allowed until an official notices that it is way faster than everything else and it gets added to the blacklist. If I import something from Japan, for example, that no-one has ever heard of I could dominate a National title before anyone gets a chance to add it to the banned list.

With a whitelist you may have to wait a while for something new to be added to the list, but at least racing in the class isn't badly affected in the meanwhile.
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Old 08-16-2010, 05:49 AM
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Scott

Good start

The only thing I dont quite unbderstand in this whole debate is this:

We are wary of the ROAR style ESC profile approach, given feedback from event co-ordinators regarding scrutineering issues, and perceived variance between brands, software upgrade impacts etc

How are the no timing ESC like Cirtix, Justock etc free from being tweaked by manufacturers? Also how do we know that they are also equal? There will be a perceived variance in those ESC's as well. I am pretty sure a LRP TC Sphere would have more settings than a base Justock. If AARCMCC persist in a conspiracy theory then that should also apply to both types of ESC. That scare tactic should be eliminated from the debate

Option 1 has no consideration built into it for a racer moving up the classes. They would have to upgrade their ESC to move up. Motors will be geared to the death or high internally timed motors will be big sellers

Option 2 has that ability to move up the classes without buying a new ESC. However new entrants are left with having to start in a fast class

Option 3 - just too complicated to run
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Old 08-16-2010, 05:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Dragonfire View Post
Option 1 with 21.5 zero timing ESC with ALLOWED ESC LIST. I think an ALLOWED list will provide better clarity as to what you can use and although it will be massive (assuming it includes ESC combo's in RTR's like the traxxas system) it also prevents an unknown sneaking in. It is stupid to expect people to tech a zero timing profile on any dynamic ESC and this solves that whole problem and provides a entry level class.


I would consider it if thats where the racing is plus modern modified destroys most TC's in a couple of runs.

Troy

I think you will find that the allowed list is a shortlist ... only maybe only 6 ESC's otherwise scrutineering would be a pain
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Old 08-16-2010, 05:58 AM
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My next thought is that if a zero timing ESC option is selected, then the motor should fixed to a specific value as well, zero degrees being the default choice.

Worst case scenario here is that in what is going to be a basement level class, you could have people having to own 3 different motors with different amounts of timing for different track lengths. Now, some zero timing motors might be slightly better than others on an open track say, but the difference isn't going to be so great.
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Old 08-16-2010, 06:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Radio Active View Post
My first thought is that an allowed list (whitelist) is a superior concept to a disallowed list (blacklist).

If you have a blacklist, then as soon as something new comes along it is technically allowed until an official notices that it is way faster than everything else and it gets added to the blacklist. If I import something from Japan, for example, that no-one has ever heard of I could dominate a National title before anyone gets a chance to add it to the banned list.

With a whitelist you may have to wait a while for something new to be added to the list, but at least racing in the class isn't badly affected in the meanwhile.
Bingo.

Originally Posted by cannon
How are the no timing ESC like Cirtix, Justock etc free from being tweaked by manufacturers? Also how do we know that they are also equal? There will be a perceived variance in those ESC's as well. I am pretty sure a LRP TC Sphere would have more settings than a base Justock. If AARCMCC persist in a conspiracy theory then that should also apply to both types of ESC. That scare tactic should be eliminated from the debate
It would be a case of testing each ESC before it is allowed. There are older speedo's that have weak dynamic timing but you would have to compare each speedo on a free reving motor on its highest settings to be sure it should be allowed.

Also the list of ESC's allowed will grow very quickly as there are many RTR kits coming out with them, and I see no reason to disallow them if they have no dynamic timing. Its better for the sport if the ESC that comes with your RTR kit is legal.
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Old 08-16-2010, 06:03 AM
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My 2 cents worth from a racer and race organiser point of view.

Option 1 whilst makes some sense for racing makes no sense in restricting to a small list of ESCs, especially a couple of examples are in fact not supported by the manufacturer anyway. Sooner or later, you cannot even buy them. As much as there is a dislike with the new ESC, our sport will not be progress unless technology is embraced, with caution and equity of course.

Like what is being said earlier, an option with 21.5 with open esc is the easiest to manage for racers and scrutineers point of view. The other classes would then be 17.5 with open esc, mod, 1/12 etc.
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Old 08-16-2010, 06:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Radio Active View Post
My next thought is that if a zero timing ESC option is selected, then the motor should fixed to a specific value as well, zero degrees being the default choice.

Worst case scenario here is that in what is going to be a basement level class, you could have people having to own 3 different motors with different amounts of timing for different track lengths. Now, some zero timing motors might be slightly better than others on an open track say, but the difference isn't going to be so great.
Its way to hard to limit something like that with motors being so different. In the end you will find that without dynamic timing less timing on the motor will produce a faster run.
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Old 08-16-2010, 06:08 AM
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.

Scrapped my original quote as about 5 posts were made before it was finished and it was no longer relevant. Man this is moving fast!
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Old 08-16-2010, 06:09 AM
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Default option 1

i would prefer option 1 with 21.5 open motors and zero timing esc(short list esc for easy srutiniring in a big event), Open 17.5 motor and esc, mod, mini,12th scale ....as this would be like the good old days with brushed motor and esc(mini,540 class,stock 27turn,modified )
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Old 08-16-2010, 06:10 AM
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Originally Posted by YAH View Post
My 2 cents worth from a racer and race organiser point of view.

Option 1 whilst makes some sense for racing makes no sense in restricting to a small list of ESCs, especially a couple of examples are in fact not supported by the manufacturer anyway. Sooner or later, you cannot even buy them. As much as there is a dislike with the new ESC, our sport will not be progress unless technology is embraced, with caution and equity of course.

Like what is being said earlier, an option with 21.5 with open esc is the easiest to manage for racers and scrutineers point of view. The other classes would then be 17.5 with open esc, mod, 1/12 etc.
One of the things I like about the new proposal is that is provides space for the new tech in an open esc/17.5 class, but provides the slower/simpler spec class in a 17.5/controlled esc class (or 21.5). it's a both/and proposal, rather than many of the either/or suggestions that are floating around.
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Old 08-16-2010, 06:15 AM
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Originally Posted by YAH View Post
Like what is being said earlier, an option with 21.5 with open esc is the easiest to manage for racers and scrutineers point of view. The other classes would then be 17.5 with open esc, mod, 1/12 etc.
With 17.5 Open ESC being locked in as the middle class, I don't think 21.5 Open ESC would be slow enough to be a 3rd tier class. A Maitland member on the Club forum posted earlier tonight that he'd seen both run at an event at Whalan and there wasn't much difference. You'd have to go to something like 25.5. And then the set-up cost is the same as the higher class anyway which defeats one of the objectives of having a 3rd tier class.
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Old 08-16-2010, 06:18 AM
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Also, has anyone noticed that Mini has just become a National class! I don't really have an opinion on the matter, but I thought it was worth at least being noted.
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