2015 VICTORIAN 1/10 OFR EP CALENDAR
12-23-2014, 04:17 PM
#3
17.5 Junior
I guess I'll start then I'll be out of range with no internet for a while so I won't be able to see if anyone cares.
It's shame that it's not understood what an opportunity this is but I can certainly see how compelling an argument it seems against it especially for the adults. My views on these adults are not to be presented in a public forum but you can guess what I think. When I started, I enjoyed 540 and then 21.5 but it was an adult forum. Kids were sparse. The kids have only become involved the last couple of years with a similar situation to immigration to this great country of ours. It's been a battle from day one.
I'll do my best not to state personal opinion as it only appears to be myself and one other family who understands the benefits but I will have to at points. It's unfortunate because it's an opportunity for those not yet involved and those just getting involved in rc racing. Yes, it's for kids. Kids are not catered for. You can present your case until blue in the face that they are and present facts but in all honesty, they are not. To present an argument against it by saying what about the adults is not what it's about. It's about the kids being able to race in a safe, secure environment free of any of the rubbish that goes on in the adult races and classes.
A great example is the adults (supposed novices) protesting about adult parents coaching during the Victorian 21.5 driver's series races. Absolutely embarrassing and more so about personal grievances than anything else. There is no positive spin you could put on such a farcical and embarrassing situation. It would never enter my mind to protest if Matt West yelled out to Mikey to drive a better line on corner three or whatever if he was racing against me but I guess some people want that 21.5 trophy at all costs. That example alone should be enough to have a junior only class where coaching and other "normal" behaviour is allowed when it comes to children.
If the 17.5 junior class were adopted, it will be slow to start because the kid's parents just don't know there is even the opportunity. It will need promotion and effort but I know it will guarantee a much larger participation and future for rc racing than our adult dominated, abusive, stagnant present.
The opposition to a 17.5 junior class in Victoria is hearsay and rumours because from my understanding the presidents vote on behalf of the members and I'm pretty sure two of the four Victorian clubs did not consult the majority of their members but in saying that, perhaps it's known that the majority of members of those clubs oppose it as they are adults who's children don't race or don't have children.
So perhaps, we could get some clarity on whether or not it will be adopted in the Victorian Drivers Series in 2015 or not, who made the decision and why simply because I need to look into what set up and motors my boys will need for next year. Yes, I will be disappointed if not but eh, we'll survive - maybe rc racing won't grow in Victoria as it should but we'll survive.
I'll leave you (all my friends, acquaintances and those who love to hate me) with that. Have a great festivus, Merry Christmas and to use the words of Eddy Murphy in Coming to America..."Merry New Year"!
It's shame that it's not understood what an opportunity this is but I can certainly see how compelling an argument it seems against it especially for the adults. My views on these adults are not to be presented in a public forum but you can guess what I think. When I started, I enjoyed 540 and then 21.5 but it was an adult forum. Kids were sparse. The kids have only become involved the last couple of years with a similar situation to immigration to this great country of ours. It's been a battle from day one.
I'll do my best not to state personal opinion as it only appears to be myself and one other family who understands the benefits but I will have to at points. It's unfortunate because it's an opportunity for those not yet involved and those just getting involved in rc racing. Yes, it's for kids. Kids are not catered for. You can present your case until blue in the face that they are and present facts but in all honesty, they are not. To present an argument against it by saying what about the adults is not what it's about. It's about the kids being able to race in a safe, secure environment free of any of the rubbish that goes on in the adult races and classes.
A great example is the adults (supposed novices) protesting about adult parents coaching during the Victorian 21.5 driver's series races. Absolutely embarrassing and more so about personal grievances than anything else. There is no positive spin you could put on such a farcical and embarrassing situation. It would never enter my mind to protest if Matt West yelled out to Mikey to drive a better line on corner three or whatever if he was racing against me but I guess some people want that 21.5 trophy at all costs. That example alone should be enough to have a junior only class where coaching and other "normal" behaviour is allowed when it comes to children.
If the 17.5 junior class were adopted, it will be slow to start because the kid's parents just don't know there is even the opportunity. It will need promotion and effort but I know it will guarantee a much larger participation and future for rc racing than our adult dominated, abusive, stagnant present.
The opposition to a 17.5 junior class in Victoria is hearsay and rumours because from my understanding the presidents vote on behalf of the members and I'm pretty sure two of the four Victorian clubs did not consult the majority of their members but in saying that, perhaps it's known that the majority of members of those clubs oppose it as they are adults who's children don't race or don't have children.
So perhaps, we could get some clarity on whether or not it will be adopted in the Victorian Drivers Series in 2015 or not, who made the decision and why simply because I need to look into what set up and motors my boys will need for next year. Yes, I will be disappointed if not but eh, we'll survive - maybe rc racing won't grow in Victoria as it should but we'll survive.
I'll leave you (all my friends, acquaintances and those who love to hate me) with that. Have a great festivus, Merry Christmas and to use the words of Eddy Murphy in Coming to America..."Merry New Year"!
12-23-2014, 07:47 PM
#4
In response to Paris' post in the -aarcmcc-ep-offroad thread (I am not allowed to link yet)
---
I agree that adults also need a safe learning environment. It's never been my argument that they have to be thrown in the deep end either. I also agree that there has been some brilliant racing, and that most of the adults have been very helpful, and quite lovely, to the children.
What I have not agreed with is my child being sworn at, having to hear foul language on the stand that is not actioned, and having 40+ yo adults telling other adults they are going to "chop" my 8yo son in the next race because he made a rookie error in 21.5 (which is supposed to be the learning/entry class).
So rather than making a 21.5 v's Junior 17.5 debate (it's not), what I would rather think of is how can we move forward and cater to all needs. Let's brainstorm some ideas of how things can be made to work, rather than putting arguments forward to why it can't work.
Why not consider making a Junior race class where you COMBINE 21.5 and 17.5 in the same race. Similarly, combine ADULT 21.5 & 17.5 beginners in another class. Then at the end of the day you have a winner in all four categories (but you've only had to run two classes being adult and junior).
Being truly in the spirit of being a development category, both the adults and kids have to step up in the "big league" once they meet certain criteria. Setting that criteria could be worked out by the appropriate powers that be.
Could this work?
Does anyone else have any ideas that could work?
---
I agree that adults also need a safe learning environment. It's never been my argument that they have to be thrown in the deep end either. I also agree that there has been some brilliant racing, and that most of the adults have been very helpful, and quite lovely, to the children.
What I have not agreed with is my child being sworn at, having to hear foul language on the stand that is not actioned, and having 40+ yo adults telling other adults they are going to "chop" my 8yo son in the next race because he made a rookie error in 21.5 (which is supposed to be the learning/entry class).
So rather than making a 21.5 v's Junior 17.5 debate (it's not), what I would rather think of is how can we move forward and cater to all needs. Let's brainstorm some ideas of how things can be made to work, rather than putting arguments forward to why it can't work.
Why not consider making a Junior race class where you COMBINE 21.5 and 17.5 in the same race. Similarly, combine ADULT 21.5 & 17.5 beginners in another class. Then at the end of the day you have a winner in all four categories (but you've only had to run two classes being adult and junior).
Being truly in the spirit of being a development category, both the adults and kids have to step up in the "big league" once they meet certain criteria. Setting that criteria could be worked out by the appropriate powers that be.
Could this work?
Does anyone else have any ideas that could work?
Last edited by 1mmune; 12-23-2014 at 07:50 PM. Reason: grammar
12-23-2014, 08:37 PM
#5
The adding of the "junior" class to the Victorian drivers series you will find is being looked into, however it's integration shouldn't come at the cost of 21.5, maybe can Shortcourse....
Victoria has kept the 21.5 class alive for many reasons. Just adding the junior class to the drivers series for 2015 will also pose its own problems...mostly time constraints.
It has been toted that the class could run in the current 17.5 class, and junior points get awarded, but this is only 1 of many ideas being thrown around. ( at least shows everyone is at least trying to make it work.)
Also it must be said, we have to understand that quite a few 21.5 racers are happy with the class and how it currently works, the same will be said about the 17.5 classes.
Don't be mistaken though that a dedicated junior class will have lots of kids taking home the prize every week. Someone has to win, and everyone else has to loose.
Getting a child to understand that sometimes they are not the best out there, and someone else is better appears to be getting lost in this "everyone's a winner" world.
For next year all the AARCMCC title meetings will see this class held, the Victorian series will no doubt trying to find a happy medium.
So in the end stay positive, and see how things pan out.
Victoria has kept the 21.5 class alive for many reasons. Just adding the junior class to the drivers series for 2015 will also pose its own problems...mostly time constraints.
It has been toted that the class could run in the current 17.5 class, and junior points get awarded, but this is only 1 of many ideas being thrown around. ( at least shows everyone is at least trying to make it work.)
Also it must be said, we have to understand that quite a few 21.5 racers are happy with the class and how it currently works, the same will be said about the 17.5 classes.
Don't be mistaken though that a dedicated junior class will have lots of kids taking home the prize every week. Someone has to win, and everyone else has to loose.
Getting a child to understand that sometimes they are not the best out there, and someone else is better appears to be getting lost in this "everyone's a winner" world.
For next year all the AARCMCC title meetings will see this class held, the Victorian series will no doubt trying to find a happy medium.
So in the end stay positive, and see how things pan out.
12-24-2014, 03:20 AM
#6
No one said anything about taking home prizes. That's insulting to us parents insinuating our kids don't have character, don't know how to lose and I'm not bringing them up right. Please stop saying that, you don't know what they've been through. At the very least, Lachlan raced for two years and still hasn't come first in anything and I resent your insinuation. Re-read my posts and the other guy after mine. It's about a safe and happy environment and the future of rc, not about rewards. Please don't say that again no one's said that's what we want.
12-24-2014, 03:39 AM
#7
Ant. Clam down a bit champ, it was a blanket statement...I wasn't directed at anyone.
If you took it another way, I'm sorry. Wasn't meant to come across that way.
If you are that passionate about the class make sure you support it as much as you can, as for it to gain full momentum it will need numbers.
Regards
If you took it another way, I'm sorry. Wasn't meant to come across that way.
If you are that passionate about the class make sure you support it as much as you can, as for it to gain full momentum it will need numbers.
Regards
12-24-2014, 05:00 AM
#9
This is a very touchy subject ...I like to add a few things but I try and be carefull.First thing is people must not forget that Victoria is the only state that maintained an entry level class at state and national level for the kids to race in (with adult new drivers and some more experienced at times)..The other states had stock and mod .21.5 was maintained so juniors had a place..The junior 17.5 class has been accepted at national arrcmcc level so vic titles should provide this as a sanctioned class...My point here is that victoria has been actively supporting the newcomers when others have not.......I think no one can say that are against the sight of a drivers stand full of young kids racing each other...but I believe 21.5 and 540 before it were responsible giving a lot of peolpe their start in racing what ever their age....ie the 21.5 class serves a purpose for the juniors and the older newbies ..
12-24-2014, 05:42 PM
#10
It's not about winning.....ever. The reason our children have stuck with RC racing thus far is because we have this mentality that winning doesn't matter. The goals we set for our child are doing their best, trying to go faster, consistency, try not to be marshalled in a race....never to win. Pls lets leave this 'toughen up/winning/participation certificate" nonsense alone- it is detracting from the real discussion.
Big Show- yes Victoria was innovative starting those classes. That was a long time ago and stemmed from people voicing a need, those in power listening, and everyone getting behind it to give it a go. They didn't look back- they looked forward and said let's do this. We are now hoping for the same with Juniors.
The major reason we want our kids separated is because of the adult bad behaviour of a minority that seem to have a large impact. Even at Club days we have yelling, swearing, aggro. Kids should be free to be on the stand with each other without the pressure of winning, just doing their best and trying to run a clean race without abuse.
Now you need to appreciate that MOST of the kids currently racing are offspring of highly accomplished racers in the country. People are less likely to give a President's (add State Champion, National Champion, Race Director etc) child a hard time. What about the new family that has no connection to racing, and at their first meet adult yells "F" bombs on the stand in their first race. Do you seriously think they will ever come back? Then the child goes and marshalls (maybe with their parent if child is quite young), and both new parent & child is also yelled at. Not a good look. The Junior class will not get rid of the bad behaviour, that needs to be solved as a stand alone issue.
Secondly, we cannot coach them on the stand. They need a place to race where they can chop their mate because of inexperience, and the parents can say "Oi, XXX you need to let ZZZ through now" so that we can teach them race craft and sportsmanship. Or a parent can tell the child they can need to let a faster car through etc etc. This way you can help them with race craft in racing.
Big Show- yes Victoria was innovative starting those classes. That was a long time ago and stemmed from people voicing a need, those in power listening, and everyone getting behind it to give it a go. They didn't look back- they looked forward and said let's do this. We are now hoping for the same with Juniors.
The major reason we want our kids separated is because of the adult bad behaviour of a minority that seem to have a large impact. Even at Club days we have yelling, swearing, aggro. Kids should be free to be on the stand with each other without the pressure of winning, just doing their best and trying to run a clean race without abuse.
Now you need to appreciate that MOST of the kids currently racing are offspring of highly accomplished racers in the country. People are less likely to give a President's (add State Champion, National Champion, Race Director etc) child a hard time. What about the new family that has no connection to racing, and at their first meet adult yells "F" bombs on the stand in their first race. Do you seriously think they will ever come back? Then the child goes and marshalls (maybe with their parent if child is quite young), and both new parent & child is also yelled at. Not a good look. The Junior class will not get rid of the bad behaviour, that needs to be solved as a stand alone issue.
Secondly, we cannot coach them on the stand. They need a place to race where they can chop their mate because of inexperience, and the parents can say "Oi, XXX you need to let ZZZ through now" so that we can teach them race craft and sportsmanship. Or a parent can tell the child they can need to let a faster car through etc etc. This way you can help them with race craft in racing.
12-24-2014, 10:52 PM
#11
You know what....
I'm all for the kids in racing. Anyone who knows me, knows how much time and effort I put into newcomers.
As far as the supposed anger, swearing, dummy spits go, this is a culture issue. Deal with it at club level, start sending people home that continue to offend, but start with a quiet chat.
This class will be great. Just not in the way it currently being done.
The control motor still hasn't been sorted, let alone how it's to be rolled out.
Also my biggest concern has be and always will be is how the marshalling will be done with a class of young children. Will they be expected to marshall 17.5,or open?
Will the parents be willing to Marshall for the kids just to ensure their safety?
Will sideline coaching be permitted for this class when it runs as a stand alone at the Vics (AARCMCC event), currently this is said to be not permitted under the rules.
Do people want to run the junior class as a stand alone event?, where no are adults permitted to race?
These are the things along with others we need to work out before we go jumping into unknown waters.
Enough from me now.
I'm all for the kids in racing. Anyone who knows me, knows how much time and effort I put into newcomers.
As far as the supposed anger, swearing, dummy spits go, this is a culture issue. Deal with it at club level, start sending people home that continue to offend, but start with a quiet chat.
This class will be great. Just not in the way it currently being done.
The control motor still hasn't been sorted, let alone how it's to be rolled out.
Also my biggest concern has be and always will be is how the marshalling will be done with a class of young children. Will they be expected to marshall 17.5,or open?
Will the parents be willing to Marshall for the kids just to ensure their safety?
Will sideline coaching be permitted for this class when it runs as a stand alone at the Vics (AARCMCC event), currently this is said to be not permitted under the rules.
Do people want to run the junior class as a stand alone event?, where no are adults permitted to race?
These are the things along with others we need to work out before we go jumping into unknown waters.
Enough from me now.
Last edited by OldSkool; 12-25-2014 at 02:25 AM.
12-25-2014, 12:42 AM
#12
Tech Adept
It seems a bit weird all of this. An adult can say to another, slow down a bit through there, take it a bit wider on that one and that's not distracting, what the f.., turn the car over and that's not distracting but if i am to whisper in my kids ear that will distract you, what a load of crap. I thought this was a sealed deal and debate over, when people under the age of 16 turn up at the track they will be in there own class from now on, sure the rtr sct's will turn up but to me juniors are juniors, in time once they are coming and hooked then the finer rules can be explained and hopefully the control combo offered. 21.5 started as a novice class but is now turning into a class in its own right, less cost less wear and tear fair enough but then there needs to be separation of the 21.5 racers and the pure novice. I can hear it all now, what another class, i look forward to every race meet if i stay for an hour or so extra so we can get new members and the kids can have a class of their own im all for it. If you feel your race day is to long you can leave any Time you like. Juniors is back and im ecstatic.
12-25-2014, 12:48 AM
#13
Tech Adept
It seems a bit weird all of this. An adult can say to another, slow down a bit through there, take it a bit wider on that one and that's not distracting, what the f.., turn the car over and that's not distracting but if i am to whisper in my kids ear that will distract you, what a load of crap. I thought this was a sealed deal and debate over, when people under the age of 16 turn up at the track they will be in there own class from now on, sure the rtr sct's will turn up but to me juniors are juniors, in time once they are coming and hooked then the finer rules can be explained and hopefully the control combo offered. 21.5 started as a novice class but is now turning into a class in its own right, less cost less wear and tear fair enough but then there needs to be separation of the 21.5 racers and the pure novice. I can hear it all now, what another class, i look forward to every race meet if i stay for an hour or so extra so we can get new members and the kids can have a class of their own im all for it. If you feel your race day is to long you can leave any Time you like. Juniors is back and im ecstatic.
12-25-2014, 01:52 PM
#14
Tech Adept
And just for the record, i don't recall any mention for the removal of a class only the addition of one. So that we still keep 21.5 as a novice class in vic with the addition of juniors,
