New indoor track in the makings, need opinions!
08-30-2010, 08:24 PM
#19
As much as I would love the small scale stuff to work out for you in off-road, it just won't hold a candle to what the 1/10th short course trucks could do for your track and your turn outs. Just head out to any big tracks in the area and see how many 1/10th scale cars are out there vs. 1/18th and smaller.
Ova,l as much as Sam wants to push will never work long term in town. It never has. I can think of maybe 1 oval track in town over the last 15 years and it did not last for long.
As much as I hate to admit it, Houston is an off-road town, and always has been.
I insist that your money will come from 10th scale off-roaders. There is no adequate place to race them in town, and there is far more racers out there with 10th scale cars than with Minis or Oval cars. 10th scale is making a comeback across the board, with lower cost of racing and it's especially accentuated with the appeal of the Short Course Trucks.
With the bigger scale cars, you can cross over and get some of the 8th scalers to race as well. With Short course 10th scale, people can get on the track for about 200 bucks for a Traxxas slash. Spec classes for beginners, even if it is the 4wd trucks would be far more successful than anything else. Just look at the way the Market is and has been trending.
Frank, no offense but turf for a track is inadequate. It is rough on cars, drive trains and it is so hard to maintain as the turf gets really torn up. The cost of maintenance is ridiculous as well.
Take it with a grain of salt, but I would hate to see you loose money for not doing off-road right. Running a track and a shop is really tough and a very hard way to make ends meet. Expenses are really high and stocking equipment to stay open requires for you to understand Market trends and stay on top of them.
Now my feeling is that Houston is Ready for the Return of an indoor off-road track. There has not been one for several years that is dedicated to running electric buggies and it is your best bet at having a competitive advantage in the market. The track needs not be too large either. something along the lines of 60x40 would be adequate and if you can spare 75x40, it would be ideal. On-road can mirror the same size and you should still have adequate space for Pits and the shop. (each track would be 3000 sq. feet and leaving 1000 sq feet for pits and 2000 sq feet for a shop would be more than enough.)
My other suggestion is to go on 2coolfishing.com find the rc forums, and gauge interest there. I am sure they can give you a much better picture of what market trends are like in town and across the state. I would even take it even further and head to the different off road tracks in town to gauge people's interest there. Maybe run some surveys with the permission of the track owners.
There are a TON of racers in Town Marcus, they are just not racing what we are used to seeing...
Ova,l as much as Sam wants to push will never work long term in town. It never has. I can think of maybe 1 oval track in town over the last 15 years and it did not last for long.
As much as I hate to admit it, Houston is an off-road town, and always has been.
I insist that your money will come from 10th scale off-roaders. There is no adequate place to race them in town, and there is far more racers out there with 10th scale cars than with Minis or Oval cars. 10th scale is making a comeback across the board, with lower cost of racing and it's especially accentuated with the appeal of the Short Course Trucks.
With the bigger scale cars, you can cross over and get some of the 8th scalers to race as well. With Short course 10th scale, people can get on the track for about 200 bucks for a Traxxas slash. Spec classes for beginners, even if it is the 4wd trucks would be far more successful than anything else. Just look at the way the Market is and has been trending.
Frank, no offense but turf for a track is inadequate. It is rough on cars, drive trains and it is so hard to maintain as the turf gets really torn up. The cost of maintenance is ridiculous as well.
Take it with a grain of salt, but I would hate to see you loose money for not doing off-road right. Running a track and a shop is really tough and a very hard way to make ends meet. Expenses are really high and stocking equipment to stay open requires for you to understand Market trends and stay on top of them.
Now my feeling is that Houston is Ready for the Return of an indoor off-road track. There has not been one for several years that is dedicated to running electric buggies and it is your best bet at having a competitive advantage in the market. The track needs not be too large either. something along the lines of 60x40 would be adequate and if you can spare 75x40, it would be ideal. On-road can mirror the same size and you should still have adequate space for Pits and the shop. (each track would be 3000 sq. feet and leaving 1000 sq feet for pits and 2000 sq feet for a shop would be more than enough.)
My other suggestion is to go on 2coolfishing.com find the rc forums, and gauge interest there. I am sure they can give you a much better picture of what market trends are like in town and across the state. I would even take it even further and head to the different off road tracks in town to gauge people's interest there. Maybe run some surveys with the permission of the track owners.
There are a TON of racers in Town Marcus, they are just not racing what we are used to seeing...
08-31-2010, 08:27 AM
#20
Off road at MM
Not living here for more than 3 years I can't comment on why Houston can't support oval, but I do agree its a different crowd than off-road or on-road, NASCAR fans and there is plenty of them. Truth is I don't see any type of R/C besides planes sustaining in this town, its strange! With all the engineers here I would think Houston could support at least 3 tracks full of 60 racers each. We got 4MM people, #4 city in the US. Why doesn't someone start electric off-road at MM? That's a nice track. I'm sure it would be easy to modify it for short course etc...The SC10's are a good idea for an entry level class.
I know Mike runs the Snowbirds with both an oval and on-road crowd, split 50/50 almost. And that has sustained for quite a while. I'll ask what he sees in terms of oval in the country on a weekly basis. I know there are guys in Waco racing dirt oval.
Whatever you decide lets get an indoor track going in Houston!
I know Mike runs the Snowbirds with both an oval and on-road crowd, split 50/50 almost. And that has sustained for quite a while. I'll ask what he sees in terms of oval in the country on a weekly basis. I know there are guys in Waco racing dirt oval.
Whatever you decide lets get an indoor track going in Houston!
08-31-2010, 11:54 AM
#21
A couple of thoughts:
to me people are people, CT has the most experience in this because he has done it before but with that being said i think that we (mostly me) is going to have to go and get the racers and make it enticeing for new racers to come and race. the reason why i am sking questions about classes is not because i dont want to have both but with hte space that i can afford one of the tracks is going to have to be small scale or both tracks will be small, that is the delima! i dont want to follow what was done in the past because for one reason or another, it failed. my idea was to create new racers by creating new classes. i recently bought a TC because everyone else was racing it. not because i wanted it. if it were up to me i would have mini-z only and i would be happy but that market has to be grown from the ground up wince there are only four of us in houston that will race them consistently. Do you guys realize that the current world champ in mini-s z is from houston(Jacob) and also the previous champ too(cristian)! and to think that was done without an active mini-z comunity. If i can afford a place big enough to support two Large track so be it but as it stands right now im gonna have to make a choice.
Status: today i looked at five more properties two of them were fully air conditioned but pricey and only about 7k sqft.
this weekend we are meeting with another potential investor and if he steps up than we will have no worries about size and will be able to have a super serious hobby shop! so keep your fingers crossed and please keep this discussion going it has helped me out alot and the investors are also reading this!
to me people are people, CT has the most experience in this because he has done it before but with that being said i think that we (mostly me) is going to have to go and get the racers and make it enticeing for new racers to come and race. the reason why i am sking questions about classes is not because i dont want to have both but with hte space that i can afford one of the tracks is going to have to be small scale or both tracks will be small, that is the delima! i dont want to follow what was done in the past because for one reason or another, it failed. my idea was to create new racers by creating new classes. i recently bought a TC because everyone else was racing it. not because i wanted it. if it were up to me i would have mini-z only and i would be happy but that market has to be grown from the ground up wince there are only four of us in houston that will race them consistently. Do you guys realize that the current world champ in mini-s z is from houston(Jacob) and also the previous champ too(cristian)! and to think that was done without an active mini-z comunity. If i can afford a place big enough to support two Large track so be it but as it stands right now im gonna have to make a choice.
Status: today i looked at five more properties two of them were fully air conditioned but pricey and only about 7k sqft.
this weekend we are meeting with another potential investor and if he steps up than we will have no worries about size and will be able to have a super serious hobby shop! so keep your fingers crossed and please keep this discussion going it has helped me out alot and the investors are also reading this!
08-31-2010, 01:23 PM
#22
Marcus that's great news.
Based on all the comments I vote:
- Offroad, SC10 short course trucks with dirt oval on the outside for 1/18th Losi Sliders (box stock racing, great for newbies)
- Mini Z track (for those that like it, low entry cost)
- Asphalt for 10th scale touring, 12th scale OR F1, M-Chassis, option track for 10th scale asphalt oval. (serious racers)
The ovals are essentially free and built in and could be run on a separate time totally. I doubt many would crossover so it shouldn't cannibalize any of the other classes.
Good Luck and keep us updated!
Based on all the comments I vote:
- Offroad, SC10 short course trucks with dirt oval on the outside for 1/18th Losi Sliders (box stock racing, great for newbies)
- Mini Z track (for those that like it, low entry cost)
- Asphalt for 10th scale touring, 12th scale OR F1, M-Chassis, option track for 10th scale asphalt oval. (serious racers)
The ovals are essentially free and built in and could be run on a separate time totally. I doubt many would crossover so it shouldn't cannibalize any of the other classes.
Good Luck and keep us updated!
08-31-2010, 03:30 PM
#23
Well, if you have 10k feet, it is enough for having the 2 decent size tracks. (You have to maximize your space and appeal to as many customers as is possible) If you are doing 7k square feet, I would do off-road before on-road. (I know-kill me now!)
In the heyday of Touring racing we would get a max of 25-30 racers, running 1 class at the old performance track. In the heyday of racing off-road, we'd have 40-50 racers running about 2 classes each, which equaled about 80 entries.
And yes, you will have to get new racers, but it is much easier to attract a kid- or even an adult at getting on the track with a slash for 250 bucks than with a touring car for 400-500+ . This is not only due to price though, I would say that the element of jumping has a lot to do with it as well. Off road is more popular across the Nation, not only in Texas. Even getting into 12th scale is much more expensive than getting into the spec and RTR off-road kits. These kits perform great, are SUPER AFFORDABLE and easily upgraded, which is where the shop will make money for you.
M&M does have an off-road track and yes, we could race there, but no one wants to fix the track. Plus, it is still out-doors, so it gets pretty rough with the rain. You also have all the customers that come in and tear up the track really bad with their 8th scales and monster trucks on the weekends, who you can't keep off the track. Compound that with the fact that no one wants to race there because of Meir, and this is the reason why people don't race there. M&M has not had a decent racing program, with the exception of when Danny F. has taken over the direction of it for the past 15 years.
In the heyday of Touring racing we would get a max of 25-30 racers, running 1 class at the old performance track. In the heyday of racing off-road, we'd have 40-50 racers running about 2 classes each, which equaled about 80 entries.
And yes, you will have to get new racers, but it is much easier to attract a kid- or even an adult at getting on the track with a slash for 250 bucks than with a touring car for 400-500+ . This is not only due to price though, I would say that the element of jumping has a lot to do with it as well. Off road is more popular across the Nation, not only in Texas. Even getting into 12th scale is much more expensive than getting into the spec and RTR off-road kits. These kits perform great, are SUPER AFFORDABLE and easily upgraded, which is where the shop will make money for you.
M&M does have an off-road track and yes, we could race there, but no one wants to fix the track. Plus, it is still out-doors, so it gets pretty rough with the rain. You also have all the customers that come in and tear up the track really bad with their 8th scales and monster trucks on the weekends, who you can't keep off the track. Compound that with the fact that no one wants to race there because of Meir, and this is the reason why people don't race there. M&M has not had a decent racing program, with the exception of when Danny F. has taken over the direction of it for the past 15 years.
08-31-2010, 04:16 PM
#24
I know Cristian , its the sad truth!! as much as i am an on roader its going to be hard to match the off road crowd. one good thing is that at least we have two venues to race TC at right now. Everyone keep their fingers crossed for this weekend, we may not have to worry about any of it! i know it would not be as much fun but what about a nice TTR sized indoor track? i dont have one yet but they are basically the same as their big brothers and the track would seem larger, we could run a 21.5 turbo class!! that would be fun!
08-31-2010, 04:23 PM
#25
Marcus,
Have you thought about USVTA or RCGT. OFNA came out with the JL10e 200mm Onroad car (shaft driven). Street price for this brand new roller is $115.00 to $130.00. While it will not work for ROAR spec 190mm 17.5 or 13.5 touring, it will work fine for USVTA and RCGT. Both Speed Passions and Novak have special pricing for their spec combos (Novak sells their USVTA 25.5 spec motors and combos directly to hobby shops only at a discounted price to match the Novak web pricing. USVTA specific 25.5 SS & Ballistic motors and USVTA Havoc 2S combos not available from distributors and are only avaialble from Novak at special price points. See the Novak USVTA thread). If you go with a Speed Passions Cirtix "Stock Club Race" ESC combos (available in 21.5, 17.5, 13.5, 11.5, & 10.5 turns), street price for these is usually under $100.00 when they are in stock. I believe that Speed passion also sells to hobby shops at an additional discount (you'll have to check). Both classes have published national rules which should bring in new blood due to the low cost.
On Slashes, Mikes Hobby Shop in Carrolton TX made some jumps and table tops along with a rhythm section (Split dowls mounted on carpet covered plywood) for one of his big carpet races last year (be sure the trucks are clean).
Mikes has two indoor tracks (98'x60' Ozite carpet with a 98'x42' setup at this time). Also has a clay indoor 100' x 60' off road track. With pit tables, crawler area, indoor park flyer flying, HO slot car track, & indoor electric Helicoptor hover practice areas, it is around 25K sq. ft. They also just built a very nice out door off road track for 1/8th scale Johnny Cool Guys 1/8th scale off road track in Euless, TX closed last year).
Around 5k to 6K square feet will do for one track with the other 4-5K sq. ft. used for pit area. Typically you need 1/2 to 2/3rds of the area for pits and the rest for the track.
Have you thought about USVTA or RCGT. OFNA came out with the JL10e 200mm Onroad car (shaft driven). Street price for this brand new roller is $115.00 to $130.00. While it will not work for ROAR spec 190mm 17.5 or 13.5 touring, it will work fine for USVTA and RCGT. Both Speed Passions and Novak have special pricing for their spec combos (Novak sells their USVTA 25.5 spec motors and combos directly to hobby shops only at a discounted price to match the Novak web pricing. USVTA specific 25.5 SS & Ballistic motors and USVTA Havoc 2S combos not available from distributors and are only avaialble from Novak at special price points. See the Novak USVTA thread). If you go with a Speed Passions Cirtix "Stock Club Race" ESC combos (available in 21.5, 17.5, 13.5, 11.5, & 10.5 turns), street price for these is usually under $100.00 when they are in stock. I believe that Speed passion also sells to hobby shops at an additional discount (you'll have to check). Both classes have published national rules which should bring in new blood due to the low cost.
On Slashes, Mikes Hobby Shop in Carrolton TX made some jumps and table tops along with a rhythm section (Split dowls mounted on carpet covered plywood) for one of his big carpet races last year (be sure the trucks are clean).
Mikes has two indoor tracks (98'x60' Ozite carpet with a 98'x42' setup at this time). Also has a clay indoor 100' x 60' off road track. With pit tables, crawler area, indoor park flyer flying, HO slot car track, & indoor electric Helicoptor hover practice areas, it is around 25K sq. ft. They also just built a very nice out door off road track for 1/8th scale Johnny Cool Guys 1/8th scale off road track in Euless, TX closed last year).
Around 5k to 6K square feet will do for one track with the other 4-5K sq. ft. used for pit area. Typically you need 1/2 to 2/3rds of the area for pits and the rest for the track.
08-31-2010, 04:36 PM
#26
that sounds sooooooo wonderfull!! i am not so much concerned about the classes as much as i am concerned about what tracks to lay out. from what i have heard Mikes did VERY well last year! how long has that place been around? its looking like im going to need more space to do two large tracks which i knew. but what i was attempting to do is one nice size track and a smaller track for a smaller scale.The investors and i are going to take a road trip to mikes within the next two weeks to check it out first hand. Bill if your a local racer to them PM me your contacts please.
) thats a great idea if space is available.
08-31-2010, 05:44 PM
#28
The point is, it does not need to be as large as Mike's. Mike's is a HUGE hobby shop that sells a TON on an annual basis. Still here, off road is much more popular than their awesome carpet track.
The clay pit in Austin is a great example for something that would work. They clay pit is like 70x40 ft. which is 2800 sq ft. Do 2 Tracks this size and you are still under 6000 sq ft.
2000 sq ft for Pit space would mean a 40x50ft space for pits. I would say 40 x30 (1200 sq ft) would suffice. This would be more than enough space to support a healthy racing program. Think, 40x30 is about the same size as the back room at MXM, maybe a bit bigger. This would be enough to fit about 40 racers. This would still leave you with a 2500-3000 sq ft for an indoor shop/ mini-Z Track. My 3 bedroom apartment is 1500sq feet. Think how big a shop that size would be
VTA, as appealing as it may sound is not for the Houston Market. We tried capping the spending and offering an alternative racing program in Houston just recently with the 12th scale touring cars and the majority of people just ended up getting the full tenths and spending more money. The reality is that On road is really a high end affair. Off-road, on the other hand is much more beginner friendly.
The clay pit in Austin is a great example for something that would work. They clay pit is like 70x40 ft. which is 2800 sq ft. Do 2 Tracks this size and you are still under 6000 sq ft.
2000 sq ft for Pit space would mean a 40x50ft space for pits. I would say 40 x30 (1200 sq ft) would suffice. This would be more than enough space to support a healthy racing program. Think, 40x30 is about the same size as the back room at MXM, maybe a bit bigger. This would be enough to fit about 40 racers. This would still leave you with a 2500-3000 sq ft for an indoor shop/ mini-Z Track. My 3 bedroom apartment is 1500sq feet. Think how big a shop that size would be
VTA, as appealing as it may sound is not for the Houston Market. We tried capping the spending and offering an alternative racing program in Houston just recently with the 12th scale touring cars and the majority of people just ended up getting the full tenths and spending more money. The reality is that On road is really a high end affair. Off-road, on the other hand is much more beginner friendly.
08-31-2010, 07:12 PM
#29
that sounds sooooooo wonderfull!! i am not so much concerned about the classes as much as i am concerned about what tracks to lay out. from what i have heard Mikes did VERY well last year! how long has that place been around? its looking like im going to need more space to do two large tracks which i knew. but what i was attempting to do is one nice size track and a smaller track for a smaller scale.The investors and i are going to take a road trip to mikes within the next two weeks to check it out first hand. Bill if your a local racer to them PM me your contacts please.
Not so much a current racer as an old basher/racer getting back in after a long hiatus. I bashed with an original Rough Rider when I was 19. I ran dirt oval at The Indoor Track in Richland Hills, TX in the late 80's/early 90's (I saw the prototype Custom Works INTIMIDATORS at the 1990 ROAR dirt oval Nationals where I had a less than stellar H main 7th place finish. Couldn't get my Car dialed at all and the motor draw left me with two duds). I got out after a few more years and went back to trains. Got into Nitro touring car with a NTC3 in 2002 and burnt out on that in 2004. Broke out some of my old HO slot cars and went racing at Mikes a few years ago (Mike rents a small space for the HO guy's track and the HO guy runs his own races on Friday nights). Got back into RC last year with an 18R and a scale rock crawler. 18th scale racing died about the time I got in. Picked up a used slash earlier this year and been having a blast bashing on Mikes indoor off road track on Sundays (Mikes has free practice. I think he makes more selling parts than he used to make in practice fees plus the shop is packed on Sundays
). Haven't actually been racing again yet due to health issues (lots of bashing on the indoor off road track with the slash earlier this summer before the bypass surgery). Been thinking about building some VTA cars to bash on the carpet track and try to get some of my onroad skills back. Also hopefully they will generate some interest and get a VTA class going at Mikes. Right now I plan on building three. Buy a new '69 Camaro Sprint 2 Sport and set it up for USVTA, build a 68 Camaro on a OFNA JL10e chassis in the 1967 Johnny Moore paint scheme (Johnny Moore's #4 67 Z/28 was the first Z/28 off he production line) and maybe build another JL10e with a either the Swede Savage or Dan Gurney Hot Wheels AAR 'Cuda paint scheme using the HPI 70 'Cuda body or I may make a couple of fakes using Bill McKay Chevrolet and/or Meador Chrysler-Plymouth (I'm a retired ASE Master technician). Hopefully I can get something going because onroad at Mikes is also thin right now (usually better in the fall and winter).If it does come down to only one track, go with an indoor off road and maybe build a temporary on road asphalt track when needed. The off road track will generate a lot of interest from kids who got Traxxas, Associated, & Losi RTRs for Christmas. Have a beginner's class where everything runs together then run your normal off road classes for drivers to move into as then gain skill. For onroad, use a trailer to store the boards and plow discs and set up the top trailer deck to double as the drivers stand. Finishline Raceway ran asphalt on road this way for years on Sundays in a Dentists parking lot in Hurst TX before closing due to a falling out of the track owners.
BTW Are you going to be at M&M's racing Thursday? I was planning on coming over to check it out (I am in League City visiting friends this week).
08-31-2010, 07:22 PM
#30
Just thought of something else. Indy RC World in Garland, TX runs both Dirt Oval and Off Road. They are the same track with board changes for dirt oval or off road and the off road basically uses the oval straights. He is in an old fairly small bowling alley. Note that he runs indoor nitro classes and the notro fumes can get to you some nights (something not very many fire marshalls will allow so keeo your track electric).
Also Wild Bill's Hobby Shop in irving TX runs a small dirt oval on Friday nights (outdoor track). One of his favorite classes used to be the Slash figure 8 class (Stock slash except for any SC tire/wheel allowed). It's a good thing Slashes are tough
Also Wild Bill's Hobby Shop in irving TX runs a small dirt oval on Friday nights (outdoor track). One of his favorite classes used to be the Slash figure 8 class (Stock slash except for any SC tire/wheel allowed). It's a good thing Slashes are tough