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Proposed new 1/8th scale 2WD Pan Car “Classic” class for 2010 Southwest Series

Proposed new 1/8th scale 2WD Pan Car “Classic” class for 2010 Southwest Series

Old 11-23-2009, 12:01 PM
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Default Proposed new 1/8th scale 2WD Pan Car “Classic” class for 2010 Southwest Series

I would like to propose a simple 2WD 1/8 spec class with spec engines developed in the US. We seem to shoot ourselves in the foot every time we try to start a spec class in this country. It usually starts out as a low cost spec class with inexpensive engines then morphs into a high cost highly competive (including pro driver participation) monster after a few years (200mm 10th Sedan class comes to mind!).

This class of racing is called “2WD Classic” in Europe. It is very popular in France and northern Italy.

I think that this class of car is badly needed in the U.S. , something needs to be done about the state of 1/8 scale racing .The cars have gotten so technical and so fast that only a handful of drivers can extract the performance out of them. They truely have become the Formula One of R/C car racing , but real Formula One has lesser series with slower cars
( GP2 , Formula 3 , Formula Ford etc.) to train drivers, and that's what is needed for 1/8 on-road , a simpler, easier to set-up and cheaper class with stable rules.

I agree the initial cost of the cars will not be much different than the present crop of 4wd kits, However, the cost of maintaining these cars should be much cheaper. The cars are super strong. They should be able to take a pretty hard hit. They require in Europe a Spec 21. RB and Novarossi both sell an budget engine for a street price of less than $250.00. All drive train components, engines, clutches, gears, etc. will last longer due to less stress on the drivetrains. You won’t have to grind away your tires trying to maintain tire ratios.
You wont have to spend $500.00 to $800.00 for a competive engine. My two Murnan Flash 21's cost me $800.00 a piece. Great engines but lets get real!!

I don't think there is a more appropriate time for a resurgence in 1/8 pan car racing than now. I see a several good reasons for why, but the ones that stand out are lowered cost and simplicity. If this class is to grow and have longevity, than the rules must be written with the idea that it must remain consistently cost effective with little or no deviation.

I have been a huge fan of 1/8 on road since 1975. I have seen the class grow and later shrink over the years. I always felt that this class needed an entry level class. Looking back over the history of 1/8, you will find that there was always an 1/8 class that fed the next generation of technology. Begining with pan cars progressing to 2WD suspension cars then to 4WD. In 1990, as the popularity of 1/8 declining in the late eighties and early nineties I was excited to learn that Serpent would be producing a 1/10 or 235 chassis. I thought that this would be an easier class to promote as far as expenses were concerned and the skill required to drive one. I believe that this may actually have worked and may have been a "feeder class" to 1/8 as the years went by. However, we all know what happened to that class. That being said, I would love nothing more than to see a resurgence of 1/8 pan car racing. I think it should be embraced as a class all it's own and as time goes on it may help to feed the 4WD class. I am looking to it as a car and type of racing that will help to promote 1/8 racing and most importantly, draw new blood into the sport.

I will Post a set of proposed rules and examples of brands of cars now available in Europe.

Last edited by djmachinist; 11-23-2009 at 12:42 PM.
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Old 11-23-2009, 12:03 PM
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Default Proposed rules for the !/8 2WD Classic cars

Proposed rules for the !/8 2WD Classic cars
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Old 11-23-2009, 12:09 PM
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Default Pics of available 2WD kits

Pics of available 2WD kits:

Motonica has the P8C 2WD kits available from Motonica USA
Another is the French DXF Vortex car with the cool diffuser.
Attached Thumbnails -p8c-img1b.jpg   -p8c-img2.jpg   -dxf-st1.jpg   -dxf-st2.jpg  
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Old 11-23-2009, 12:14 PM
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Default French national race in Oct, 2009

You would think these are 1/8 4WD cars not 2WD cars!http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRXze...eature=related
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Old 11-23-2009, 12:49 PM
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You should know that Houston itself has a problem with turnouts. For club racing, I usually have to bring my 8th scale, 10th nitro and 10th electric just to have a good chance at racing something.

GT was a new class last year I believe and had a total of 5 entries between spec and open which isn't bad but doesn't make me want to spend the money to buy one.

Sedan had 35 entries (this is total, not at a single race, not everyone travels)

8th scale had 23.

The two major "popular" classes only had 5 or 6 race participation from only a few people.

Nice find and 2wd 8th scale would be entertaining, as would electric 8th scale which I believe is below in one of the pictures you posted but I just don't see it right now. Sorry man. I could be completely wrong though, perhaps everyone wants to drop a grand to have another car. I personally have 6 that I actively race already (well when some can be, offroad is always good to go) and then another 7 that sit around 100% of the time like 12th scale, 18th and miniz.

Plus, every time a spec class gets popular then people start cheating and higher level drivers get involved which is basically cheating to most sportsmen level drivers. I've seen it many times over the years and then the class usually dies off. 8th scale 4wd is near that point, probably because of engine costs and probably because of tire costs but for 6 times a year like the SW series it isn't that bad for some that attended most of the SW series.
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Old 11-23-2009, 01:27 PM
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Interesting......... Kinda reminds me of the 235 Impact days. I used to run in a Porsche Cup! Very fun!!!!!!
http://www.serpent.com/product/1797
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Old 11-23-2009, 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Brian Bosley
You should know that Houston itself has a problem with turnouts. For club racing, I usually have to bring my 8th scale, 10th nitro and 10th electric just to have a good chance at racing something.

GT was a new class last year I believe and had a total of 5 entries between spec and open which isn't bad but doesn't make me want to spend the money to buy one.

Sedan had 35 entries (this is total, not at a single race, not everyone travels)

8th scale had 23.

The two major "popular" classes only had 5 or 6 race participation from only a few people.

Nice find and 2wd 8th scale would be entertaining, as would electric 8th scale which I believe is below in one of the pictures you posted but I just don't see it right now. Sorry man. I could be completely wrong though, perhaps everyone wants to drop a grand to have another car. I personally have 6 that I actively race already (well when some can be, offroad is always good to go) and then another 7 that sit around 100% of the time like 12th scale, 18th and miniz.

Plus, every time a spec class gets popular then people start cheating and higher level drivers get involved which is basically cheating to most sportsmen level drivers. I've seen it many times over the years and then the class usually dies off. 8th scale 4wd is near that point, probably because of engine costs and probably because of tire costs but for 6 times a year like the SW series it isn't that bad for some that attended most of the SW series.
Brian,
You make some good points, however I am well aware of the local turnouts and SWS turnouts we are getting. You made my point for me. "The 1/8 engine cost" is killing the 1/8 Class along with the high maintenace and the complicated set ups required for eighth. The 2WD rules (if you bothered to read them) Mission Statement says: "To create and promote a simple economical class of racing with emphasis on Driver ability and Stable rules". In other words, The rules will not change from the Misson Statement.1/8 4WD is totaly out of control. This class will have Kit cost about $100.00 cheaper than the present 4WD cars.The engines by rule are limited to:

.21 CI
maximum of 7 ports
Flat top engines (no dished Pistons)
No slug weighted cranks
Steel ball bearings only(no ceramic bearings)

This will outlaw any of the the high end engines.

I do not want 1/8th to go away, I see this as a start of a more economical form of 1/8th. You may not buy into this but others may. All we can do is give it a try and see where the chips fall.

And Brian, save the "Dude" reference for the younger set.

Dale
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Old 11-23-2009, 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by djmachinist
Brian,
You make some good points, however I am well aware of the local turnouts and SWS turnouts we are getting. You made my point for me. "The 1/8 engine cost" is killing the 1/8 Class along with the high maintenace and the complicated set ups required for eighth. The 2WD rules (if you bothered to read them) Mission Statement says: "To create and promote a simple economical class of racing with emphasis on Driver ability and Stable rules". In other words, The rules will not change from the Misson Statement.1/8 4WD is totaly out of control. This class will have Kit cost about $100.00 cheaper than the present 4WD cars.The engines by rule are limited to:

.21 CI
maximum of 7 ports
Flat top engines (no dished Pistons)
No slug weighted cranks
Steel ball bearings only(no ceramic bearings)

This will outlaw any of the the high end engines.

I do not want 1/8th to go away, I see this as a start of a more economical form of 1/8th. You may not buy into this but others may. All we can do is give it a try and see where the chips fall.

And Brian, save the "Dude" reference for the younger set.

Dale
Engine cost is only killing you guys because you think you need the most expensive engine modded by whoever when you are still not getting the most out of the car. Ask Derek, his $349 Picco 7 port with a $75 pipe/header is just fine even compared to my engines. I have only run 8th scale 3 times, I know I'm nowhere near getting the most out of my car but I am still barely learning how to drive 8th scale and I've been through about 30 sets of tires already.
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Old 11-23-2009, 03:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Brian Bosley
Engine cost is only killing you guys because you think you need the most expensive engine modded by whoever when you are still not getting the most out of the car. Ask Derek, his $349 Picco 7 port with a $75 pipe/header is just fine even compared to my engines. I have only run 8th scale 3 times, I know I'm nowhere near getting the most out of my car but I am still barely learning how to drive 8th scale and I've been through about 30 sets of tires already.
Again, you make my point for me, The engines that Novarossi and RB offer that meet the 2WD rules sell for $180.00 to $250.00 max. As far as tires, The 2WD cars won't wear tires near as much as the 4WD cars especially in the front where you need to run bricks, shore of 45 or so.

Dale
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Old 11-23-2009, 03:26 PM
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Default 1/8 two wheel drive

Dale

Permit electric and any body type and I'm there. Nitro is too darn dirty for me and the electrics are up to snuff now.

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Old 11-23-2009, 05:39 PM
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Umm....why not just do a "spec" class for 1/8 4wd that requires use of these spec engines. I have the RB in my car right now...and its more than enough to do the job in a 4wd. Why require everyone to guy buy another kit.

It's good to have the "spec rules" for new people...but I do not think there will be enough "new" people to get the class going, you will still need support from the local racers as well.

To me its gonna be easier to sell the spec engine to people, than a whole new car platform.

Also, after doing a little bit of searching, where are you gonna find these cars and parts in the U.S.? You gonna have new people ordering all this stuff from Italy, EU ?

Last edited by kaotickc; 11-23-2009 at 05:58 PM.
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Old 11-23-2009, 06:52 PM
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Originally Posted by kaotickc
Umm....why not just do a "spec" class for 1/8 4wd that requires use of these spec engines. I have the RB in my car right now...and its more than enough to do the job in a 4wd. Why require everyone to guy buy another kit.

It's good to have the "spec rules" for new people...but I do not think there will be enough "new" people to get the class going, you will still need support from the local racers as well.

To me its gonna be easier to sell the spec engine to people, than a whole new car platform.

Also, after doing a little bit of searching, where are you gonna find these cars and parts in the U.S.? You gonna have new people ordering all this stuff from Italy, EU ?
The cars are already available in the US from Motonica USA, Garen got mine in two weeks. He is talking about stocking the Motonica P8C and parts.

Go to the Nitro on-road forum and read the "European 2WD 1/8 pan car class"
thread if you are interested. The reasons for going this way is explained in detail. I started this thread three weeks ago, there have been 270 postings
and over 5500 hits. Looks like there may be some interest around the country.

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Old 11-23-2009, 08:34 PM
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A national spec class that just simply makes it cheaper period for onroad is what is needed, it dosent matter what it is it would be good for our racing! The hard part is onroad has lost its appeal for new racers for one reason or another. In the end their is no easy answer, it would be cool to see a new class, but it would also be cool to have a 4wd spec class that is reconized everywhere not just in Texas! If this new 2wd class works our shop and track will support it!
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Old 11-23-2009, 09:01 PM
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Ya, it may be cool if there is interest around the country...but, not everyone travels to race around the country. We need help locally before we worry about the race turnouts around the country. I think cali, and florida, etc have a much better turnout for racing than we do, so how can we compare to other states around the country?

Besides, you said you wanted this for the "southwest series." Last time I checked, that race does not go around the country.

If you want to make 1/8 easier for people running the southwest series, I say adopt a spec motor class.

just my .02
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Old 11-23-2009, 10:18 PM
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Originally Posted by djmachinist
Brian,
You make some good points, however I am well aware of the local turnouts and SWS turnouts we are getting. You made my point for me. "The 1/8 engine cost" is killing the 1/8 Class along with the high maintenace and the complicated set ups required for eighth. The 2WD rules (if you bothered to read them) Mission Statement says: "To create and promote a simple economical class of racing with emphasis on Driver ability and Stable rules". In other words, The rules will not change from the Misson Statement.1/8 4WD is totaly out of control. This class will have Kit cost about $100.00 cheaper than the present 4WD cars.The engines by rule are limited to:

.21 CI
maximum of 7 ports
Flat top engines (no dished Pistons)
No slug weighted cranks
Steel ball bearings only(no ceramic bearings)

This will outlaw any of the the high end engines.

I do not want 1/8th to go away, I see this as a start of a more economical form of 1/8th. You may not buy into this but others may. All we can do is give it a try and see where the chips fall.

And Brian, save the "Dude" reference for the younger set.

Dale
Dale,

You kind of missed Brian's main point. It is hard to start a new class when you don't have enough racing the current classes. I have been keeping up with the thread that you mentioned and I know where you are coming from with having a entry-level, spec class. However, when you number of racers barely support the classes that you currently offer, how can you expect this new class to pick up and take off?

Like someone mentioned, the SWCS tried the "spec" 4wd 1/8th scale class once before but it went by the wayside for a lot of reasons. We were trying to get a spec class going with the Inferno GT-styled cars in the SWCS but interest in that died off as quickly as it started (and there was an open class for the ones that wanted to spend to there hearts content).

I don't know what the answer is and don't have an answer as far as participation is concerned. However, getting more participants to run in the classes that the SWCS offers needs to improve before trying to intro any more classes. Don't get me wrong, it is a good concept but we can barely get 30 racers out at any one time to run the two main classes that the SWCS currently runs (1/8th scale and 200mm touring), with a few racers actually running both classes.
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