243LikesTLR 22-4 2.0 Race Kit Thread!
06-20-2016, 06:37 AM - Wikipost
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06-09-2016, 12:36 PM
#151
Will new gear diff fit XXX-4?
Would be SUPER RAD if someone would be willing to give me the following measurements of the new 22-4 gear diff to see if I can cram them into an old XXX-4. In the name of RC geekery.
- diameter at teeth
- diameter for bearing
- width from end of one outdrive to end of the other
- width at bearing (inside of one bearing to inside of the other)
- tooth count from and rear
Thanks!
- diameter at teeth
- diameter for bearing
- width from end of one outdrive to end of the other
- width at bearing (inside of one bearing to inside of the other)
- tooth count from and rear
Thanks!
06-09-2016, 04:16 PM
#152
How tight are you guys screwing in the king pin screws? I feel like I'm either to tight where it's binding or not tight enough? Also the top and bottom ones don't matter how tight they are correct
Last edited by Speedychris22; 06-09-2016 at 06:20 PM.
06-09-2016, 04:40 PM
#153
Would be SUPER RAD if someone would be willing to give me the following measurements of the new 22-4 gear diff to see if I can cram them into an old XXX-4. In the name of RC geekery.
- diameter at teeth
- diameter for bearing
- width from end of one outdrive to end of the other
- width at bearing (inside of one bearing to inside of the other)
- tooth count from and rear
Thanks!
- diameter at teeth
- diameter for bearing
- width from end of one outdrive to end of the other
- width at bearing (inside of one bearing to inside of the other)
- tooth count from and rear
Thanks!
06-09-2016, 05:42 PM
#154
All the way down. If it binds when fully tightened then the holes need to be reamed out a little or you got some thread lock in the joint. If you leave the screws even a little loose, they will back out.
06-09-2016, 06:22 PM
#156
Finished my build last night. Here are my observations:
1. As already stated, the rear CVD's have a binding problem which TLR is working on. I have full faith that they will make it right. Otherwise, the build was almost perfect. No missing parts, no sanding or reaming required. Some slight shimming was required on the rear a-arm inner hinge pin (0.015").
2. The diffs are amazing and obviously they spent a lot of the kit budget on them. I say that because there are some other areas where the new kit has cut corners compared to the 1.0. The most noticeable cost reduction is in the front hinge pin brace which no longer keys to the chassis plate. The front arms have additional material and webbing at the inner pivot which will help front end durability though.
If you get creative, there is a way to reuse the 1.0 keyed front pivot brace, but you'll have to use the 1.0 front arms or shave material off the 2.0 arms. Other cost reductions are the plastic posts for the battery hold downs, no clicker included, and plastic rear hexes. On the plus side, this kit comes with a rear sway bar (but not a full set or any front sway bar parts). Overall, they spent the budget where it matters.
3. Speaking of arms and spare parts, the front and rear arm geometry is the same as the 1.0 as far as I can tell. Old spare arms will work fine (but the fronts will need shimming). The shock towers are the same geometry, and the front carriers and knuckles are the same. The belts, spur gear, and shocks look the same too.
Off the top of my head, I think you could convert a 1.0 to a 2.0 with a new chassis plate, belt tunnels, gear diffs, front and rear camber plates, 22 3.0 rear hubs and hexes, slipper plates, and a full set of CVD's. I'm too lazy to add it up, but it would probably cheaper to just buy a 2.0.
4. The manual was great, no errors that I could see anywhere. The kit includes genuine YFS fasteners which is a big improvement over the generic Chinese fasteners that came with previous kits. They included spare c-clips for the layshaft this time which is awesome when one goes flying. The body looks rough cut, but it is just the overspray lining, the lexan is pre-cut smoothly.
5. It would have been great if the rear inner hinge pin carriers were redesigned to accept adjustable toe and antisquat inserts like on the 22 3.0 but it's not too hard to change them out as they are. Would also be great if they added droop screws since taking shocks apart to adjust droop is a pain.
6. Almost forgot to mention, there's no chassis tweak on the new kit which had been a problem on the earlier 1.0's.
Have to wait for the next race to give a report on the handling, but one of local TLR sponsored guys had a 2.0 at our last race and it was hooked up.
1. As already stated, the rear CVD's have a binding problem which TLR is working on. I have full faith that they will make it right. Otherwise, the build was almost perfect. No missing parts, no sanding or reaming required. Some slight shimming was required on the rear a-arm inner hinge pin (0.015").
2. The diffs are amazing and obviously they spent a lot of the kit budget on them. I say that because there are some other areas where the new kit has cut corners compared to the 1.0. The most noticeable cost reduction is in the front hinge pin brace which no longer keys to the chassis plate. The front arms have additional material and webbing at the inner pivot which will help front end durability though.
If you get creative, there is a way to reuse the 1.0 keyed front pivot brace, but you'll have to use the 1.0 front arms or shave material off the 2.0 arms. Other cost reductions are the plastic posts for the battery hold downs, no clicker included, and plastic rear hexes. On the plus side, this kit comes with a rear sway bar (but not a full set or any front sway bar parts). Overall, they spent the budget where it matters.
3. Speaking of arms and spare parts, the front and rear arm geometry is the same as the 1.0 as far as I can tell. Old spare arms will work fine (but the fronts will need shimming). The shock towers are the same geometry, and the front carriers and knuckles are the same. The belts, spur gear, and shocks look the same too.
Off the top of my head, I think you could convert a 1.0 to a 2.0 with a new chassis plate, belt tunnels, gear diffs, front and rear camber plates, 22 3.0 rear hubs and hexes, slipper plates, and a full set of CVD's. I'm too lazy to add it up, but it would probably cheaper to just buy a 2.0.
4. The manual was great, no errors that I could see anywhere. The kit includes genuine YFS fasteners which is a big improvement over the generic Chinese fasteners that came with previous kits. They included spare c-clips for the layshaft this time which is awesome when one goes flying. The body looks rough cut, but it is just the overspray lining, the lexan is pre-cut smoothly.
5. It would have been great if the rear inner hinge pin carriers were redesigned to accept adjustable toe and antisquat inserts like on the 22 3.0 but it's not too hard to change them out as they are. Would also be great if they added droop screws since taking shocks apart to adjust droop is a pain.
6. Almost forgot to mention, there's no chassis tweak on the new kit which had been a problem on the earlier 1.0's.
Have to wait for the next race to give a report on the handling, but one of local TLR sponsored guys had a 2.0 at our last race and it was hooked up.
Last edited by gte024h; 06-09-2016 at 06:34 PM.
06-09-2016, 06:22 PM
#157
Got the kit built yesterday and a full day tuning at the track today, lots to go over so I'm going to keep this first post to stuff related to the build, and then move on to stuff driving/tuning in the next post tomorrow!
There were some other people at the track building their kits at the same time I was, so when I refer to "the crowd" these are the people I'm referring to, one was a fellow 22-4 1.0 owner, two had the HB D413, and a couple were long time AE guys building their first Losi kits (B44.3 owners).
Overall build/kit quality is absolutely stellar, everything fit together nicely and none of the crowd were missing any parts. A couple of first-time TLR builders agreed that it was probably the nicest build they have ever done (both with 10+ years in RC).
Of course, there will always be complaints
so here's my list, I would consider everything but the first item to be very small gripes:
On to the standout positives:
Specific build step comments/warnings, including areas I replaced stock parts -- Think of this as a FAQ that answers questions I had from other builders about each step:
A-3: You can instead use TLR Aluminum Servo Mount here.
A-5: Be sure to get the shorter screw in the correct hole.
A-6: Use a 76 or 78T spur if you are running a 13.5T-21.5T motor instead of the 84 in the kit! and...
A-6: The plastic washer between the pulley and the thrust assembly should be oriented so that the flat side goes toward the pulley, and the side with the ring goes towards the thrust assembly's metal washer. Diagram in instructions is correct, you just can't see that this washer isn't flat on both sides from the illustration.
A-7: Be sure the nut holding the Full-Time 4WD assembly is nice and tight, I have seen it get loose in the 1.0 car!
A-9: Put the gears on the jackshaft before the c-clips, so that you don't have to deal with getting the c-clips off to put the gears on
B-2: It seems to be possible to push the outdrives on so tight that they bind when spun, be sure to ensure that they spin freely as the manual notes.
B-7: You're screwing the 1.3mm screws into metal, don't crank so hard you strip the heads on the screws. While this is metal-on-metal, the manual doesn't call for loctite here.
B-8: The rear diff has fewer/bigger teeth, the front diff has more/smaller teeth.
C-3/C-4: TLR Aluminum Bellcranks and Exotek steering rack can be used here to increase durability/reduce steering slop
C-8: TLR Aluminum A/B Horn can be used to increase durability/reduce steering slop.
D-2: Don't worry about the kingpins sticking out the front even when the nut is tight, the bumper will push them in and keep them there.
D-5: Shock tower screws were the tightest plastic part on my kit, look from the side when tightening down the tower at the gap between the tower and the front bulkhead, tighten until this gap is closed.
D-6/D-7: Don't mix up the CVA pins and the hex pins, should be easy because hex pins are black and CVA pins are silver.
D-8/D-9: Use a toothpick to get threadlock in the metal block instead of applying it to the shoulder bolt, so that you don't get it between the plastic spindle and the metal block.
E-1/E-2: Don't mix up the 10mm pins for the rear hexes with the 11mm pins for the rear CVAs! They are packaged together and both silver, so it's easy to think you just have 4 pins that are the same!
G-1: No need to install the post on the right side if you are running a shorty and use velcro to attach the body to the mud guards. You can move the right post up or down a little so that it snugly fits your shorty battery.
G-2: Aluminum Servo Horn can be used here.
G-4: Adjust the length of the link and the servo horn position so that both the servo horn and the horn on the bellcranks are parallel with each other, and perpendicular with the link.
Hope this helps some of you that are putting your kits together, and thanks to Frank and the TLR crew for a solid kit!
There were some other people at the track building their kits at the same time I was, so when I refer to "the crowd" these are the people I'm referring to, one was a fellow 22-4 1.0 owner, two had the HB D413, and a couple were long time AE guys building their first Losi kits (B44.3 owners).
Overall build/kit quality is absolutely stellar, everything fit together nicely and none of the crowd were missing any parts. A couple of first-time TLR builders agreed that it was probably the nicest build they have ever done (both with 10+ years in RC).
Of course, there will always be complaints
so here's my list, I would consider everything but the first item to be very small gripes: - Two of "the crowd" had burring and malformed pin holes on their rear axles, both ended up just buying new axles from the shop. Just a manufacturing defect, but it seems common enough to mention so that Horizon/Frank can look in to it.
- Every other TLR vehicle I've bought came with 2 sets of wheels, one in white and one in yellow. Kit includes only 1 set of yellow wheels, which is a downer since I run white! Very minor issue.
- No 78 or 76T spur included
- No Velcro for body included as an alternative to clips -- nobody likes body clips.
- Horizon Site lists 22-4 Titanium Turnbuckle Set (TLR334013) as compatible with the 2.0 car, but the lengths of the turnbuckles are actually not the same -- the 1.0 car had 50mm rear links, the new car uses 55mm rear links. I'm pretty sure the 50mm links would work for the shorter link positions in the rear anyway (I have almost no thread showing on my turnbuckles with the stock camber link position).
- Horizon site lists angled ball cups in the 22-4 2.0 parts list, but these aren't actually used on the car (TLR231029)
On to the standout positives:
- The diffs are an engineering masterpiece, I cannot say enough good things about how easy these were to build and how well they perform. I was worried about the tiny 1.3mm hex screws that seal the halves together until I realized that unlike 1/8 scale gear diffs, these screws were going into metal -- it was very easy to get them nice and tight and they don't seem to be leaking at all.
- Quality of the molds for the belt covers and other plastics is top-notch, everything fit together perfectly and the suspension is nice and free without any fiddling or reaming. Spindles/Blocks were a little tight out of the box, but broke in nicely after a couple runs and the slop in the steering is absolutely minimal.
- Solid single piece for full-time 4wd instead of the old clicker lockout assembly is a nice touch, less rotating mass and less to get loose/slop/go wrong.
- Grooved Slipper is nice, less rotating mass is always good.
- Manual has a listing for 13.5 gearing (1.0 did not), though I think it's too conservative -- 78/27 while most of our locals run 76/25.
Specific build step comments/warnings, including areas I replaced stock parts -- Think of this as a FAQ that answers questions I had from other builders about each step:
A-3: You can instead use TLR Aluminum Servo Mount here.
A-5: Be sure to get the shorter screw in the correct hole.
A-6: Use a 76 or 78T spur if you are running a 13.5T-21.5T motor instead of the 84 in the kit! and...
A-6: The plastic washer between the pulley and the thrust assembly should be oriented so that the flat side goes toward the pulley, and the side with the ring goes towards the thrust assembly's metal washer. Diagram in instructions is correct, you just can't see that this washer isn't flat on both sides from the illustration.
A-7: Be sure the nut holding the Full-Time 4WD assembly is nice and tight, I have seen it get loose in the 1.0 car!
A-9: Put the gears on the jackshaft before the c-clips, so that you don't have to deal with getting the c-clips off to put the gears on
B-2: It seems to be possible to push the outdrives on so tight that they bind when spun, be sure to ensure that they spin freely as the manual notes.
B-7: You're screwing the 1.3mm screws into metal, don't crank so hard you strip the heads on the screws. While this is metal-on-metal, the manual doesn't call for loctite here.
B-8: The rear diff has fewer/bigger teeth, the front diff has more/smaller teeth.
C-3/C-4: TLR Aluminum Bellcranks and Exotek steering rack can be used here to increase durability/reduce steering slop
C-8: TLR Aluminum A/B Horn can be used to increase durability/reduce steering slop.
D-2: Don't worry about the kingpins sticking out the front even when the nut is tight, the bumper will push them in and keep them there.
D-5: Shock tower screws were the tightest plastic part on my kit, look from the side when tightening down the tower at the gap between the tower and the front bulkhead, tighten until this gap is closed.
D-6/D-7: Don't mix up the CVA pins and the hex pins, should be easy because hex pins are black and CVA pins are silver.
D-8/D-9: Use a toothpick to get threadlock in the metal block instead of applying it to the shoulder bolt, so that you don't get it between the plastic spindle and the metal block.
E-1/E-2: Don't mix up the 10mm pins for the rear hexes with the 11mm pins for the rear CVAs! They are packaged together and both silver, so it's easy to think you just have 4 pins that are the same!
G-1: No need to install the post on the right side if you are running a shorty and use velcro to attach the body to the mud guards. You can move the right post up or down a little so that it snugly fits your shorty battery.
G-2: Aluminum Servo Horn can be used here.
G-4: Adjust the length of the link and the servo horn position so that both the servo horn and the horn on the bellcranks are parallel with each other, and perpendicular with the link.
Hope this helps some of you that are putting your kits together, and thanks to Frank and the TLR crew for a solid kit!
06-09-2016, 11:05 PM
#158
Oh hay, my build post is now on top of the thread... cool!
I've got about 30 packs on the new car now and I've let a bunch of people drive it: the track owner, some sponsored guys, and a 9 year old who's never driven 4WD before (who's actually a really good driver)... I think at least 8 people have put at least half a pack on the car. I call this "my 22-4 sales pitch," basically you hand a guy the remote and tell him to run a pack. They walk out of the store about 15 minutes later with a 22-4 box under their arm
I was feeling pretty brave to let others drive it because there aren't any parts on the wall for the new car in the LHS until tomorrow... but I was eager to do some grassroots durability testing to see what broke first.
I have nothing to report, car seems like a tank. It's been into the wall and pipes plenty, and it still makes the "Losi clack" sound when it comes down sideways like the old car. So far the only break was just a ball cup popping off the rear hub in an encounter with the wall. 10/10 so far on durability, but I can't tell you what spare parts to stock up on!
I've got about 30 packs on the new car now and I've let a bunch of people drive it: the track owner, some sponsored guys, and a 9 year old who's never driven 4WD before (who's actually a really good driver)... I think at least 8 people have put at least half a pack on the car. I call this "my 22-4 sales pitch," basically you hand a guy the remote and tell him to run a pack. They walk out of the store about 15 minutes later with a 22-4 box under their arm
I was feeling pretty brave to let others drive it because there aren't any parts on the wall for the new car in the LHS until tomorrow... but I was eager to do some grassroots durability testing to see what broke first.
I have nothing to report, car seems like a tank. It's been into the wall and pipes plenty, and it still makes the "Losi clack" sound when it comes down sideways like the old car. So far the only break was just a ball cup popping off the rear hub in an encounter with the wall. 10/10 so far on durability, but I can't tell you what spare parts to stock up on!
06-10-2016, 03:36 AM
#159
b1narych0ice your ultimate test has yet to come! See you tonight. Game on!!!
06-10-2016, 10:35 AM
#160
Tech Adept
iTrader: (18)
Just built a 2.0 kit with a friend, both builds went flawlessly except for the rear CVA's, the barrel and pin bound up really bad. I was able to de-burr and clean up mine but my buddy basically had to use toothpaste and wear his in by hand for an hour to loosen up. Had mine on the track and its nothing short of amazing.
One question, seeing as the white 2.2 rear wheels are out of stock until the end of the month, what can I do to make b5/KYO rear wheels fit? They come about 1mm short of the threads leaving them slightly sloppy. I ordered +1.5mm hexes but would rather not swap back and forth since my rear wheels are split TLR and AE style...
One question, seeing as the white 2.2 rear wheels are out of stock until the end of the month, what can I do to make b5/KYO rear wheels fit? They come about 1mm short of the threads leaving them slightly sloppy. I ordered +1.5mm hexes but would rather not swap back and forth since my rear wheels are split TLR and AE style...
06-10-2016, 10:53 AM
#161
nvm, figured it out
I think I was up too late last night building the car
I think I was up too late last night building the car
Last edited by jmkalt; 06-10-2016 at 01:05 PM.
06-10-2016, 12:21 PM
#162
Oh hay, my build post is now on top of the thread... cool!
I've got about 30 packs on the new car now and I've let a bunch of people drive it: the track owner, some sponsored guys, and a 9 year old who's never driven 4WD before (who's actually a really good driver)... I think at least 8 people have put at least half a pack on the car. I call this "my 22-4 sales pitch," basically you hand a guy the remote and tell him to run a pack. They walk out of the store about 15 minutes later with a 22-4 box under their arm
I was feeling pretty brave to let others drive it because there aren't any parts on the wall for the new car in the LHS until tomorrow... but I was eager to do some grassroots durability testing to see what broke first.
I have nothing to report, car seems like a tank. It's been into the wall and pipes plenty, and it still makes the "Losi clack" sound when it comes down sideways like the old car. So far the only break was just a ball cup popping off the rear hub in an encounter with the wall. 10/10 so far on durability, but I can't tell you what spare parts to stock up on!
I've got about 30 packs on the new car now and I've let a bunch of people drive it: the track owner, some sponsored guys, and a 9 year old who's never driven 4WD before (who's actually a really good driver)... I think at least 8 people have put at least half a pack on the car. I call this "my 22-4 sales pitch," basically you hand a guy the remote and tell him to run a pack. They walk out of the store about 15 minutes later with a 22-4 box under their arm
I was feeling pretty brave to let others drive it because there aren't any parts on the wall for the new car in the LHS until tomorrow... but I was eager to do some grassroots durability testing to see what broke first.
I have nothing to report, car seems like a tank. It's been into the wall and pipes plenty, and it still makes the "Losi clack" sound when it comes down sideways like the old car. So far the only break was just a ball cup popping off the rear hub in an encounter with the wall. 10/10 so far on durability, but I can't tell you what spare parts to stock up on!
06-10-2016, 01:32 PM
#163
frank, feal free to edit the wiki post on the front page..its something new to the site....and i am still learning it, so i dont 100 percent know how it works..lol
06-10-2016, 02:11 PM
#165
Driveshaft Update - I've reviewed some parts today from stock. The 'issue' part is definitely the rear CVA driveshaft bone. The pin slot is not 90* to the bore for the barrel. We are working to get good parts made and here for CS use ASAP.
Some of the parts I checked were not 100% free, but definitely run-able. Keep in mind that the driveshafts should wear in fairly well, and quickly (within a few packs). If you have a 22-4 2.0 and are experiencing issues with the driveshafts, we won't have good replacements for probably a couple of weeks (no definitive timeline yet), so I would recommend running them on track for 1-2 packs, then rechecking. I think most will free up well.
I am sorry that we are having an issue. Everything was great during samples until production, but we'll make sure to get it right, and make it right for those with the bad parts.
Some of the parts I checked were not 100% free, but definitely run-able. Keep in mind that the driveshafts should wear in fairly well, and quickly (within a few packs). If you have a 22-4 2.0 and are experiencing issues with the driveshafts, we won't have good replacements for probably a couple of weeks (no definitive timeline yet), so I would recommend running them on track for 1-2 packs, then rechecking. I think most will free up well.
I am sorry that we are having an issue. Everything was great during samples until production, but we'll make sure to get it right, and make it right for those with the bad parts.