Touring Car Pricesr
03-03-2005, 08:52 AM
#61
Originally posted by Soviet
So really, all other things being the same, all you need for 3 classes of touring is an additional 36 Minutes of time in the raceday. All other things would be the same. 5 Mins between heats, 45 min lunch break before Mains, etc.
I really don't think finding an additional 1/2 hour to 45-50 mins would be THAT hard considering the benefit to the sport.
So really, all other things being the same, all you need for 3 classes of touring is an additional 36 Minutes of time in the raceday. All other things would be the same. 5 Mins between heats, 45 min lunch break before Mains, etc.
I really don't think finding an additional 1/2 hour to 45-50 mins would be THAT hard considering the benefit to the sport.
03-03-2005, 09:03 AM
#62
Originally posted by NVisible
agreed!
agreed!
Lets look at SoCal on a regular club race night...Saturdays if you didn't know
1-2 heats of Novice stock
1-4 heats for intermediate stock
1-3 heats of Sportsman stock
1-2 heats of Pro stock
1-2 19T
1-2 12th pan
1-2 10th pan
1-2 Expert Mod.
Minimum of 9 different class concisting of 12-18 people per class adding up number of heats for each class.
SO my math with just the minimum
is Novic 5,5,5 15minutes
Intermediate 15minutes
sportsman 15minutes
expert 15minute
12th pan 15 minutes
10th pan 15 minutes
19T 15 minutes
Mod 15 minutes
thats 2 hours minimum but it is more like 4 hours and with all the breaks in between that brings up the total of 5 hours and that is at a break neck speed, just ask anyone who races @ SoCal...man you better hit the grib when its time....They run a real quick format there and we are still pushing 5 hours easy but some times 6 hours. so to add even another hour to that would be nearly impossible for some tracks.
That is why I suggested what I did. Let the guys who are faster and who need more time to recover from a little mistake have a minute or two longer but leave the guys alone who barely know how to control their car when it is coming at them....LOL
That one took me a few attempts myself.
Hope this sheads a little light on it.
-Stephen <><
03-03-2005, 09:12 AM
#63
Tech Adept
I believe there was a previous thread that talked about 4 cell touring cars.
If anything, you can have a lower class that uses 4 cells for 5 min for newer racers. Getting 4 cells is cheaper and with a stock motor probably just as fast with less wear and tear on the car/motor/esc.
Its easier to afford a 4 cell touring car because even the cheapest electronics will do.
For intermediate classes you can go to 6 cell - 8min.
I believe the thread started out talking about the cost of TCs. This is still the problem. For new comers many tracks do not have enough people that race less expensive cars. A $400 car is just the start of the expense. If you figure in radio, esc, motor, brushes, track fees, batteries, tires, shells, paint, springs, oil, tools, tweak/setting tools you start this hobby $1000 into the hole.
While I believe there is a high-end side of the market, the low end needs to be support as well. I can also see the margins at the high-end being higher, but if we do not support the lower end and get new people into the hobby there will be nobody to purchase the high end equipment.
Which begs a new thread -- what is the real cost of racing?
If anything, you can have a lower class that uses 4 cells for 5 min for newer racers. Getting 4 cells is cheaper and with a stock motor probably just as fast with less wear and tear on the car/motor/esc.
Its easier to afford a 4 cell touring car because even the cheapest electronics will do.
For intermediate classes you can go to 6 cell - 8min.
I believe the thread started out talking about the cost of TCs. This is still the problem. For new comers many tracks do not have enough people that race less expensive cars. A $400 car is just the start of the expense. If you figure in radio, esc, motor, brushes, track fees, batteries, tires, shells, paint, springs, oil, tools, tweak/setting tools you start this hobby $1000 into the hole.
While I believe there is a high-end side of the market, the low end needs to be support as well. I can also see the margins at the high-end being higher, but if we do not support the lower end and get new people into the hobby there will be nobody to purchase the high end equipment.
Which begs a new thread -- what is the real cost of racing?
03-03-2005, 09:13 AM
#64
Wow, I must say I am impressed that this thread has managed to stay so completely positive in its inputs from so many different people. 
I like the idea of longer races. Some people feel that it will ignite a new battery war. But to me, that war has already been ignited and is blazing on!!! Ever since the sanctioning bodies started 'bending' the rules involving making new cells legal almost immediately, it was pretty much over with.
So to me, theres no real reason not to go with longer races, at least in the "expert" classes at the track.
Back to the topic of kit cost. I certainly don't want people to get the idea that there aren't any lower cost options out there. There are, and many of them are good deals on good handling cars. But there just isn't anything rational that can explain the huge jump in kit prices recently. It can't simply be the import issue. Because Losi's newest car is tipping the scales at $369,(I will give the credit for at least having the sense to include a body and wheels). Which means that when they eventually come out with their "<insert team driver name here>" factory kit, its going to be up around the $400 marke just like the new Yok, Tamiya, etc....Why? Is it really THAT much better than their Graphite+ XXX-S kit that sold for $289?
I mean look at the $460 Tamiya kit. Is it really that much better than the $290 Schumacher? Both kits have been driven to victory by team drivers, both have aluminum bulkheads, aluminum shocks, innovative features, qaulity parts, etc..... So what exactly acconts for the $170 difference? Not picking on Tamiya, its just that they make for a good example...
I like the idea of longer races. Some people feel that it will ignite a new battery war. But to me, that war has already been ignited and is blazing on!!! Ever since the sanctioning bodies started 'bending' the rules involving making new cells legal almost immediately, it was pretty much over with.
So to me, theres no real reason not to go with longer races, at least in the "expert" classes at the track.Back to the topic of kit cost. I certainly don't want people to get the idea that there aren't any lower cost options out there. There are, and many of them are good deals on good handling cars. But there just isn't anything rational that can explain the huge jump in kit prices recently. It can't simply be the import issue. Because Losi's newest car is tipping the scales at $369,(I will give the credit for at least having the sense to include a body and wheels). Which means that when they eventually come out with their "<insert team driver name here>" factory kit, its going to be up around the $400 marke just like the new Yok, Tamiya, etc....Why? Is it really THAT much better than their Graphite+ XXX-S kit that sold for $289?
I mean look at the $460 Tamiya kit. Is it really that much better than the $290 Schumacher? Both kits have been driven to victory by team drivers, both have aluminum bulkheads, aluminum shocks, innovative features, qaulity parts, etc..... So what exactly acconts for the $170 difference? Not picking on Tamiya, its just that they make for a good example...
03-03-2005, 09:23 AM
#65
Originally posted by Darkseid
I mean look at the $460 Tamiya kit. Is it really that much better than the $290 Schumacher? Both kits have been driven to victory by team drivers, both have aluminum bulkheads, aluminum shocks, innovative features, qaulity parts, etc..... So what exactly acconts for the $170 difference? Not picking on Tamiya, its just that they make for a good example...
I mean look at the $460 Tamiya kit. Is it really that much better than the $290 Schumacher? Both kits have been driven to victory by team drivers, both have aluminum bulkheads, aluminum shocks, innovative features, qaulity parts, etc..... So what exactly acconts for the $170 difference? Not picking on Tamiya, its just that they make for a good example...
Screw em both. Get a used X-Ray FK off E-Bay
03-03-2005, 09:32 AM
#66
Originally posted by Darkseid
Wow, I must say I am impressed that this thread has managed to stay so completely positive in its inputs from so many different people.
I like the idea of longer races. Some people feel that it will ignite a new battery war. But to me, that war has already been ignited and is blazing on!!! Ever since the sanctioning bodies started 'bending' the rules involving making new cells legal almost immediately, it was pretty much over with. So to me, theres no real reason not to go with longer races, at least in the "expert" classes at the track.
Back to the topic of kit cost. I certainly don't want people to get the idea that there aren't any lower cost options out there. There are, and many of them are good deals on good handling cars. But there just isn't anything rational that can explain the huge jump in kit prices recently. It can't simply be the import issue. Because Losi's newest car is tipping the scales at $369,(I will give the credit for at least having the sense to include a body and wheels). Which means that when they eventually come out with their "<insert team driver name here>" factory kit, its going to be up around the $400 marke just like the new Yok, Tamiya, etc....Why? Is it really THAT much better than their Graphite+ XXX-S kit that sold for $289?
I mean look at the $460 Tamiya kit. Is it really that much better than the $290 Schumacher? Both kits have been driven to victory by team drivers, both have aluminum bulkheads, aluminum shocks, innovative features, qaulity parts, etc..... So what exactly acconts for the $170 difference? Not picking on Tamiya, its just that they make for a good example...
Wow, I must say I am impressed that this thread has managed to stay so completely positive in its inputs from so many different people.
I like the idea of longer races. Some people feel that it will ignite a new battery war. But to me, that war has already been ignited and is blazing on!!! Ever since the sanctioning bodies started 'bending' the rules involving making new cells legal almost immediately, it was pretty much over with.
So to me, theres no real reason not to go with longer races, at least in the "expert" classes at the track.Back to the topic of kit cost. I certainly don't want people to get the idea that there aren't any lower cost options out there. There are, and many of them are good deals on good handling cars. But there just isn't anything rational that can explain the huge jump in kit prices recently. It can't simply be the import issue. Because Losi's newest car is tipping the scales at $369,(I will give the credit for at least having the sense to include a body and wheels). Which means that when they eventually come out with their "<insert team driver name here>" factory kit, its going to be up around the $400 marke just like the new Yok, Tamiya, etc....Why? Is it really THAT much better than their Graphite+ XXX-S kit that sold for $289?
I mean look at the $460 Tamiya kit. Is it really that much better than the $290 Schumacher? Both kits have been driven to victory by team drivers, both have aluminum bulkheads, aluminum shocks, innovative features, qaulity parts, etc..... So what exactly acconts for the $170 difference? Not picking on Tamiya, its just that they make for a good example...
You are paying more for "Brand" names.
Tamiya and Xray have been masters at getting some sort of stigma behind their names to get people to think they are the elite.
Its just good marketing.
I mean look at clothing. You guys ever watch those style channels?(I have to because of my wife!
)A T-Shirt by *insert high end designer here* costs $275 dollars!!!!
What makes that any different than the $5.99 t-shirt you get at the Gap?
Nothing, its just the name.
Funny thing is, names and stigmas are made at the track. Which I always find funny that sometimes major competitors are not at events.
I said it before and I will say it again,
Where was HPI and TAMIYA at snowbirds?
Who was the big winner at Snowbirds?
Who just Happened to have a new car coming out?
Any coincidence the last two questions where the same answer?
I'm not trying to flame anybody,
I'm just pointing out how people market.
Xray still had to have the drivers to get to the A-main.
03-03-2005, 09:39 AM
#67
Tech Master
iTrader: (29)
Doesnt losi, yokomo, hb have new cars coming out about the same time as the new xray???...if so why didnt they win???
as far as the drivers...do you really think the xray drivers are all of a sudden better than all the other team drivers ???
maybe I just read your post wrong....
as far as the drivers...do you really think the xray drivers are all of a sudden better than all the other team drivers ???
maybe I just read your post wrong....
03-03-2005, 10:06 AM
#69
Well i love the way there are 4 (+ SD conversion) new cars coming out 
so much choice.........
Machining is very expensive.
Look at the quality of the cars these days, its 10x better than 5 years ago. I am very impressed with the way companies are including lots of things in the kits that would normally be hop ups, i am pretty sure the kit, FK05, HB car or the new yok could win straight out of th box with a good setup.
so much choice.........
Machining is very expensive.
Look at the quality of the cars these days, its 10x better than 5 years ago. I am very impressed with the way companies are including lots of things in the kits that would normally be hop ups, i am pretty sure the kit, FK05, HB car or the new yok could win straight out of th box with a good setup.
03-03-2005, 10:46 AM
#70
Originally posted by Mr. Shookie
I think were you fail to notice is that there is more than just TC at most tracks.
Lets look at SoCal on a regular club race night...Saturdays if you didn't know
1-2 heats of Novice stock
1-4 heats for intermediate stock
1-3 heats of Sportsman stock
1-2 heats of Pro stock
1-2 19T
1-2 12th pan
1-2 10th pan
1-2 Expert Mod.
Minimum of 9 different class concisting of 12-18 people per class adding up number of heats for each class.
SO my math with just the minimum
is Novic 5,5,5 15minutes
Intermediate 15minutes
sportsman 15minutes
expert 15minute
12th pan 15 minutes
10th pan 15 minutes
19T 15 minutes
Mod 15 minutes
thats 2 hours minimum but it is more like 4 hours and with all the breaks in between that brings up the total of 5 hours and that is at a break neck speed, just ask anyone who races @ SoCal...man you better hit the grib when its time....They run a real quick format there and we are still pushing 5 hours easy but some times 6 hours. so to add even another hour to that would be nearly impossible for some tracks.
That is why I suggested what I did. Let the guys who are faster and who need more time to recover from a little mistake have a minute or two longer but leave the guys alone who barely know how to control their car when it is coming at them....LOL
That one took me a few attempts myself.
Hope this sheads a little light on it.
-Stephen <><
I think were you fail to notice is that there is more than just TC at most tracks.
Lets look at SoCal on a regular club race night...Saturdays if you didn't know
1-2 heats of Novice stock
1-4 heats for intermediate stock
1-3 heats of Sportsman stock
1-2 heats of Pro stock
1-2 19T
1-2 12th pan
1-2 10th pan
1-2 Expert Mod.
Minimum of 9 different class concisting of 12-18 people per class adding up number of heats for each class.
SO my math with just the minimum
is Novic 5,5,5 15minutes
Intermediate 15minutes
sportsman 15minutes
expert 15minute
12th pan 15 minutes
10th pan 15 minutes
19T 15 minutes
Mod 15 minutes
thats 2 hours minimum but it is more like 4 hours and with all the breaks in between that brings up the total of 5 hours and that is at a break neck speed, just ask anyone who races @ SoCal...man you better hit the grib when its time....They run a real quick format there and we are still pushing 5 hours easy but some times 6 hours. so to add even another hour to that would be nearly impossible for some tracks.
That is why I suggested what I did. Let the guys who are faster and who need more time to recover from a little mistake have a minute or two longer but leave the guys alone who barely know how to control their car when it is coming at them....LOL
That one took me a few attempts myself.
Hope this sheads a little light on it.
-Stephen <><
Looks like it's a problem for the local tracks to figure out. I mean 'Cmon...nitro guys have been running crazy long quals and mains forever...It's now time for electric to actually USE it's modern capabilities.
Regardless...IFMAR and ROAR NEED to change to a longer format for Electric powered vehicles. If the mongo-huge tracks have a problem with it, then they need to split the racing into two days.
Enough said...I'm heading to Debbies to dial in my new 12L4...
03-03-2005, 10:58 AM
#71
Tech Addict
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: princeton, NJ and wall street, NYC
Posts: 514
Trader Rating: 1 (100%+)
have ever a noob ask you how much your kit cost you?
the car you are currently running.
ESC+Battery+Motor+servo+hop-up+Rx+Tx+charger+discharger+leathe+a lot more stuff?
i bet when we say to them that our equipment will cost you
at least 1K. the noob are mostly likey walk away, because it
is too expensive for them to afford.
i don't see other manufacture try to promote their lower cost kit
into the mass. who just want to have fun in part racing and part bashing.
maybe that is why a lot of new noob turns around and go buy a monster truck.
maybe it is just me. but whenever i went to the park to run
around with my stadium truck. I got this kid with their parents
walking up to me and said "how much? my kid is interested at it"
should I just told them that this toy will cost you $400+/-???
aren't people like us should try to drow them into our hobbies?
and not proudly saying yeah. my FT T4 will cost you
$280 with out electronic and charger is not included either!!!
the way the manufacture market their high end TC $$kit is toward
us--who are serious about racing.
damn. i got side tracked again. people gonna set me on fire now~
And i hate when people said too expensive? can't afford it? go do some other hobbie then~
the car you are currently running.
ESC+Battery+Motor+servo+hop-up+Rx+Tx+charger+discharger+leathe+a lot more stuff?
i bet when we say to them that our equipment will cost you
at least 1K. the noob are mostly likey walk away, because it
is too expensive for them to afford.
i don't see other manufacture try to promote their lower cost kit
into the mass. who just want to have fun in part racing and part bashing.
maybe that is why a lot of new noob turns around and go buy a monster truck.
maybe it is just me. but whenever i went to the park to run
around with my stadium truck. I got this kid with their parents
walking up to me and said "how much? my kid is interested at it"
should I just told them that this toy will cost you $400+/-???
aren't people like us should try to drow them into our hobbies?
and not proudly saying yeah. my FT T4 will cost you
$280 with out electronic and charger is not included either!!!
the way the manufacture market their high end TC $$kit is toward
us--who are serious about racing.
damn. i got side tracked again. people gonna set me on fire now~
And i hate when people said too expensive? can't afford it? go do some other hobbie then~
03-03-2005, 11:03 AM
#72
8 Minute qualifiers and Main...
2 8 minute qualifiers = 16 minutes... You get a minute more than you were getting with 3 five's....
8 minute main....
24 minutes of actual driving.... Only got 20 minutes running 5 minutes 4 times....
Plus..... What takes the most time is between races... You're cutting that down.... Trying to get all the marshalls and drivers going is time consuming some days....
I love how we go off on completely new topics on this place....
Honestly... I'd rather do the 8 minutes... Usually takes me 4 minutes to get warmed up... hahahaha....
2 8 minute qualifiers = 16 minutes... You get a minute more than you were getting with 3 five's....
8 minute main....
24 minutes of actual driving.... Only got 20 minutes running 5 minutes 4 times....
Plus..... What takes the most time is between races... You're cutting that down.... Trying to get all the marshalls and drivers going is time consuming some days....
I love how we go off on completely new topics on this place....
Honestly... I'd rather do the 8 minutes... Usually takes me 4 minutes to get warmed up... hahahaha....
03-03-2005, 11:06 AM
#73
Originally posted by Mdoc
Doesnt losi, yokomo, hb have new cars coming out about the same time as the new xray???...if so why didnt they win???
as far as the drivers...do you really think the xray drivers are all of a sudden better than all the other team drivers ???
maybe I just read your post wrong....
Doesnt losi, yokomo, hb have new cars coming out about the same time as the new xray???...if so why didnt they win???
as far as the drivers...do you really think the xray drivers are all of a sudden better than all the other team drivers ???
maybe I just read your post wrong....
Would you release a new car after a bad showing at a major event?
I'm just saying that with HPI and Tamiya not present, the competition was lessened.
Xray had their whole team there. If they didn't win it would have been a surprise.
Are you telling me that if Hara, Surikarn, Moore, Reinhard Etc.... were at snowbirds, that Xray would have still dominated like they did?
03-03-2005, 11:11 AM
#74
on the topic of cars getting more expensive:
It all has to do with much of the points people have made already: weak US dollar, more hop ups/quality parts being included in kits
on the topic of 8 minute racing:
At this point in time I don't think it's a good idea... I don't think people realize how much harder it is on your equipment to go one more minute longer at race speeds let alone 3 extra minutes.
It's not just a matter of your batteries having the capacity to make it through the run. But incidentally, I'm pretty sure you'd hurt your batteries a lot faster by running them hard for 8 minutes than you would at 5 minutes... this translates to needing higher quality batteries more often = more $$
It's going to also be harder on your motors...with the advent of brushless this problem is going to eventually not be such a big deal...but as it stands right now it's hard enough to keep a 7 or 8 turn running strong for 5 minutes... This translates to more motor rebuilds more often = more $$
Another thing people neglect to think about are your tires... foam tires wouldn't be that big a deal as far as wear goes I don't think...they might gum up towards the end of a run...but it's not the same as simply having your set of rubber tires over heat or go through too hard of a heat cycle to have them work...This means fewer good runs out of your rubber tires = more $$
It all has to do with much of the points people have made already: weak US dollar, more hop ups/quality parts being included in kits
on the topic of 8 minute racing:
At this point in time I don't think it's a good idea... I don't think people realize how much harder it is on your equipment to go one more minute longer at race speeds let alone 3 extra minutes.
It's not just a matter of your batteries having the capacity to make it through the run. But incidentally, I'm pretty sure you'd hurt your batteries a lot faster by running them hard for 8 minutes than you would at 5 minutes... this translates to needing higher quality batteries more often = more $$
It's going to also be harder on your motors...with the advent of brushless this problem is going to eventually not be such a big deal...but as it stands right now it's hard enough to keep a 7 or 8 turn running strong for 5 minutes... This translates to more motor rebuilds more often = more $$
Another thing people neglect to think about are your tires... foam tires wouldn't be that big a deal as far as wear goes I don't think...they might gum up towards the end of a run...but it's not the same as simply having your set of rubber tires over heat or go through too hard of a heat cycle to have them work...This means fewer good runs out of your rubber tires = more $$
03-03-2005, 11:12 AM
#75
Are you telling me that if Hara, Surikarn, Moore, Reinhard Etc.... were at snowbirds, that Xray would have still dominated like they did?
Those guys aren't really used to racing foams on carpet.... Remeber, carpet is big mainly on the east coast....