Power Push Batteries
01-03-2005, 06:20 AM
#31
Jeff...
Check your e-mail!!!! Just sent it!!!!
Wayne
Check your e-mail!!!! Just sent it!!!!
Wayne
01-03-2005, 06:44 AM
#32
"Man lets see how they work on the Track, put them in and RUN!!!!"
Finally, someone that makes sense.
Finally, someone that makes sense.
01-03-2005, 06:55 AM
#33
Originally posted by Tony Carrubba
koabich
.05 peak detect is over 150 deg . I can tell you that it to high of a role over for the Gp 3300 on our GFX we use .01 and at the most .02, now with a .01 I set the lockout to on.
OVER 125 deg kills GP
koabich
.05 peak detect is over 150 deg . I can tell you that it to high of a role over for the Gp 3300 on our GFX we use .01 and at the most .02, now with a .01 I set the lockout to on.
OVER 125 deg kills GP
01-03-2005, 07:07 AM
#34
Checking batteries and cycling them on different systems then what the matcher used will only hurt the cell and the match... If the matcher trained the cells at a .05 peak detection, then stick with it...
Battery numbers are like dyno numbers... put it on the track and run it, even though it may not be what you're looking for it may work...lol... How many times do you go to the track with your motors you benched raced all week and end up slow... then dyno the motor of the guy who's been whoopin' on you and his motor shows crap!!!
Wayne
Battery numbers are like dyno numbers... put it on the track and run it, even though it may not be what you're looking for it may work...lol... How many times do you go to the track with your motors you benched raced all week and end up slow... then dyno the motor of the guy who's been whoopin' on you and his motor shows crap!!!
Wayne
01-03-2005, 07:43 AM
#35
Well, I've been around the sport a little while, and I've tried packs from EVERYONE. Occasionally, at a club race, I'll try a pack of someone else's stuff just to compare. When all is said and done, Tony's stuff is KING. I race 12th scale and TC, not Turbomatchers, and on the track Power Push cells flat out deliver. I guess a TM4 would be a helpful tool for me if I had a car that drew a constant 35 amps for the entirety of it's run.
Charge one of Tony's packs on a Futaba CDR charger and you'll have no doubt as to what it is that makes them superior.
koa: I've got 4-cell packs that are 2 years old with 30+ cycles that put out as much as most other matchers "customer" packs with similar numbers. If Tony says you're getting his cells too hot I'm inclined to believe him.
Charge one of Tony's packs on a Futaba CDR charger and you'll have no doubt as to what it is that makes them superior.
koa: I've got 4-cell packs that are 2 years old with 30+ cycles that put out as much as most other matchers "customer" packs with similar numbers. If Tony says you're getting his cells too hot I'm inclined to believe him.
01-03-2005, 10:21 AM
#36
Tech Master
Happy holidays to the Blackstock's and Carubba's form the people at fusion.
John Malin
John Malin
01-03-2005, 12:19 PM
#37
I'm new to this forum, but I want to throw my two (maybe 3 or 4) cents in. (Maybe 3 or 4 after proof-reading this!) I'm a longtime R/C racer who was out of the sport for almost 10 years, and recently jumped back in. I used to run PowerPush batteries in the late 80's and early 90's, and Tony put out some awesome product. Powerpush batteries helped me win a Norrca Short Track Oval Title in 1991, and a Roar Oval Stock title in 1995. I know they perform in Oval, which is one of the most demanding tests of a battery.
I've found that because his matching process is unique (custom developed equipment), the numbers on his cells are not directly comparable to Turbo Matcher or the old Turbo 30 numbers. However, due to manufacturing variations between units, I've found that I also cannot compare numbers from my two different Turbo 35's. My two units are about 4% different runtime on the same packs. Hooking them up to a scope with a current probe reveals the culprit. With both units set to discharge at 30 Amps, the scope shows one discharging at 30.2 Amps with a +/- 0.1 Amp variation over time, and the other discharging at 29. 2 Amps with a +/- 0.2 Amp variation over time. That isn't too bad, when you think about it. One unit is within about 1%, The other is off by about 3% low, but it's at least consistently low. But . . .
Stop and think about it. (With apologies to Arsenio) Hmmmmm. We are all running around looking for 10 more seconds of run time, or anothe 0.05 V average discharge, yet the equipment we are using isn't that accurate, based on my 2 units. I don't have a TurboMatcher, so I cannot comment on how accurate they are. I'm now smart enough to use the Turbo 35 as a great charger, and for discharging my packs after a run, and it gives me a good understanding of how much energy was left in the pack, but it's just not accurate enough to be looking for minor differences between packs. The numbers are only as good as the measuring system that generated them.
Cycle numbers be damned, however. What really matters is how they perform on the track! The Powerpush packs definitely perform better on the track than most other packs that I have tried. When I decided to jump back in to RC, I purchased some big number Orion cells at my local hobby shop, to use for practice and re-learning how to drive.
Of course, when it came time to buy some good race cells, I called Tony at Powerpush. He fixed me up with some great cells for stock and 19 turn racing. I had my touring car setup for SoCal raceway, with the Orion batteries. When I switched to the Powerpush packs, I had to change the chassis setup to counteract the push off the corners from the extra voltage. Tony's cell still rock!
I'm not knocking Orion's batteries. They are, I'm sure, indicative of what you get when you buy their product in a hobby shop. However, they just don't perform on the track the same for me, and they cost about the same money. To me, that matters far more than whatever numbers are printed on the labels.
Here's some more techno babble (if you haven't nodded off already!) The NiMH batteries are new to me. When I got out of RC, the Sanyo 1700SCRC's were king. In order to catch up, I've been doing a lot of testing. (I'm a EE, that's what we do. Testing, testing, and more testing.) I've found that the NiMH's (GP3300's and Sanyo 3600's) will not tolerate any charge abuse at all, unlike the old NiCd's. If the NiMH get too hot, over about 115-120 degrees F, they really suffer for both punch and runtime. I started checking my batteries with a handheld pyrometer to make sure they don't overcook, and to come up with a proper cycle for my Turbo 35's. I've adjusted my Turbo 35's to a 0.03V peak for 6 cells, 0.02V peak for 4 cell, to make sure they don't overcook, and I charge at no more then 4.0 Amps. Those are my findings. As always, YMMV.
I have some new 4 cell packs from PowerPush that I will be running in my oval cars, and my intial tests looked great over the holidays. However, I have also found that the NiMH cells pickup after a couple of cycles, and I'm looking forward to really feeling "The Push!", once these killer packs settle in.
Thanks for the great batteries, Tony. Please keep up the good work. Man, I didn't realize how much I missed RC racing until I squeezed the trigger on some of your batteries! Woo Hoo!
-Tony Staples
I've found that because his matching process is unique (custom developed equipment), the numbers on his cells are not directly comparable to Turbo Matcher or the old Turbo 30 numbers. However, due to manufacturing variations between units, I've found that I also cannot compare numbers from my two different Turbo 35's. My two units are about 4% different runtime on the same packs. Hooking them up to a scope with a current probe reveals the culprit. With both units set to discharge at 30 Amps, the scope shows one discharging at 30.2 Amps with a +/- 0.1 Amp variation over time, and the other discharging at 29. 2 Amps with a +/- 0.2 Amp variation over time. That isn't too bad, when you think about it. One unit is within about 1%, The other is off by about 3% low, but it's at least consistently low. But . . .
Stop and think about it. (With apologies to Arsenio) Hmmmmm. We are all running around looking for 10 more seconds of run time, or anothe 0.05 V average discharge, yet the equipment we are using isn't that accurate, based on my 2 units. I don't have a TurboMatcher, so I cannot comment on how accurate they are. I'm now smart enough to use the Turbo 35 as a great charger, and for discharging my packs after a run, and it gives me a good understanding of how much energy was left in the pack, but it's just not accurate enough to be looking for minor differences between packs. The numbers are only as good as the measuring system that generated them.
Cycle numbers be damned, however. What really matters is how they perform on the track! The Powerpush packs definitely perform better on the track than most other packs that I have tried. When I decided to jump back in to RC, I purchased some big number Orion cells at my local hobby shop, to use for practice and re-learning how to drive.
Of course, when it came time to buy some good race cells, I called Tony at Powerpush. He fixed me up with some great cells for stock and 19 turn racing. I had my touring car setup for SoCal raceway, with the Orion batteries. When I switched to the Powerpush packs, I had to change the chassis setup to counteract the push off the corners from the extra voltage. Tony's cell still rock!
I'm not knocking Orion's batteries. They are, I'm sure, indicative of what you get when you buy their product in a hobby shop. However, they just don't perform on the track the same for me, and they cost about the same money. To me, that matters far more than whatever numbers are printed on the labels.
Here's some more techno babble (if you haven't nodded off already!) The NiMH batteries are new to me. When I got out of RC, the Sanyo 1700SCRC's were king. In order to catch up, I've been doing a lot of testing. (I'm a EE, that's what we do. Testing, testing, and more testing.) I've found that the NiMH's (GP3300's and Sanyo 3600's) will not tolerate any charge abuse at all, unlike the old NiCd's. If the NiMH get too hot, over about 115-120 degrees F, they really suffer for both punch and runtime. I started checking my batteries with a handheld pyrometer to make sure they don't overcook, and to come up with a proper cycle for my Turbo 35's. I've adjusted my Turbo 35's to a 0.03V peak for 6 cells, 0.02V peak for 4 cell, to make sure they don't overcook, and I charge at no more then 4.0 Amps. Those are my findings. As always, YMMV.
I have some new 4 cell packs from PowerPush that I will be running in my oval cars, and my intial tests looked great over the holidays. However, I have also found that the NiMH cells pickup after a couple of cycles, and I'm looking forward to really feeling "The Push!", once these killer packs settle in.
Thanks for the great batteries, Tony. Please keep up the good work. Man, I didn't realize how much I missed RC racing until I squeezed the trigger on some of your batteries! Woo Hoo!
-Tony Staples
01-03-2005, 12:40 PM
#38
Wow, now that's a post! So basically what you're saying is that a 1.18 volt cell on my Turbo35 might end up being a 1.17 on someone elses machine simply because the tolerances of the two different machines are off?
Think about that. What if someone went into business matching batteries and by luck-of-the draw, purchased a matcher that said it discharged at 30 amps, but actually dischared at 28 amps. Those cells would show lots more run time and higher voltage because they were discharged slower. You'd buy what you thought were the hottest packs in the country, but in reality, you would have paid big $$$ for 1.16s
Mr. Horsepower's post just confirms what some other people have said...its about how the pack performs in the car, not on the bench.
Think about that. What if someone went into business matching batteries and by luck-of-the draw, purchased a matcher that said it discharged at 30 amps, but actually dischared at 28 amps. Those cells would show lots more run time and higher voltage because they were discharged slower. You'd buy what you thought were the hottest packs in the country, but in reality, you would have paid big $$$ for 1.16s
Mr. Horsepower's post just confirms what some other people have said...its about how the pack performs in the car, not on the bench.
01-03-2005, 12:45 PM
#39
Hi all,
I just want to echo what some people have said here and maybe add another point of view.
In my extended family there is a recently retired GM Engineer. He spent a lot of time working on the design for the GM electric car. The power for the car was as you have no doubt guessed provided by NiMh cells. They did a lot of testing at GM to find out how to get the best performance out of these cells. This obviously depends on your definition of performance. GM of course wanted to have the best lifecycle out of thier cells. To get this they air conditioned the cell bay, keeping them as cool as possible made for the best lifecycle of the cell. However, for best voltage, lowest IR etc the best thing for the cells is to be very warm/hot. This allowed the chemical reactions to happen faster but broke down more of the checmicals in the process.
In Northern California where I am, it can get to 110 ambient temp in the summer, the cells don't appreciate this. My method for using cells will be to buy at the start of the winter/Indoor season. And use temp charging to 115 or 120. In the summer I'll peak charge probably with a low delta, knowing my cells will be trashed by the time the winter season starts, then buy more.
I keep restating what a surge guy said on another thread. These are all the same cells. Find a matcher you like and develop a good relationship with them.
Chris.
I just want to echo what some people have said here and maybe add another point of view.
In my extended family there is a recently retired GM Engineer. He spent a lot of time working on the design for the GM electric car. The power for the car was as you have no doubt guessed provided by NiMh cells. They did a lot of testing at GM to find out how to get the best performance out of these cells. This obviously depends on your definition of performance. GM of course wanted to have the best lifecycle out of thier cells. To get this they air conditioned the cell bay, keeping them as cool as possible made for the best lifecycle of the cell. However, for best voltage, lowest IR etc the best thing for the cells is to be very warm/hot. This allowed the chemical reactions to happen faster but broke down more of the checmicals in the process.
In Northern California where I am, it can get to 110 ambient temp in the summer, the cells don't appreciate this. My method for using cells will be to buy at the start of the winter/Indoor season. And use temp charging to 115 or 120. In the summer I'll peak charge probably with a low delta, knowing my cells will be trashed by the time the winter season starts, then buy more.
I keep restating what a surge guy said on another thread. These are all the same cells. Find a matcher you like and develop a good relationship with them.
Chris.
01-03-2005, 12:47 PM
#40
That's pretty much my conclusion, too. I figure I better leave the battery matching to those that know what the heck they are doing, and have the right kind of equipment.
Besides, I figure I'll be that much faster if I spend the limited time I have available actually practicing, instead of twiddling with my battery packs.
-Tony Staples
Besides, I figure I'll be that much faster if I spend the limited time I have available actually practicing, instead of twiddling with my battery packs.
-Tony Staples
01-03-2005, 03:36 PM
#41
Tech Apprentice
cells
Like most of you, I've had nothing but good luck with my PowerPush packs. I've loaned packs out before, and those guys have had to change their setups due to the added punch (just like Mr.HorsePower said). It was very noticeable to them, as they were avid and experienced off-roaders running stock, and were now missing jumps by jumping too far... simply via a battery pack change. You can always cross check based on your lap times too.
j peck
j peck
01-03-2005, 04:48 PM
#42
Tech Regular
Well id like to add something to this post i am a retired racer getting back into oval racing i have won some roar titles and made the a mains at several velodrome races .But probably most important i owned my own battery company for 7 years VOODOO BATTERYS in 93 94 we one every big oval race out there including the us ovalmasters race at whipporwill . I always looked up to tony and his family because of there honesty and attn to detail. something i always strived for in owning my own company i recently called tony out of the blue and he made me feel very good abought getting back into this sport with my 6 yearold son.LOOK AT IT THIS WAY DO YOU RACE YOUR GFX AGAINST ANOTHER GFX OR IS IT CAR AGAINST CAR?
01-03-2005, 05:22 PM
#43
Pony -
Damn that's a name from the past. I used to run Voodoo cells exclusively when I was an Ovalhead at Whipporwill. I remember the fast stock guys were running your batteries and having their motors tweaked by Mory Mears of Cannon Motorsports. To this day, you had the coolest labels - chrome with the purple and black ink. Glad to see you back in the game.
Damn that's a name from the past. I used to run Voodoo cells exclusively when I was an Ovalhead at Whipporwill. I remember the fast stock guys were running your batteries and having their motors tweaked by Mory Mears of Cannon Motorsports. To this day, you had the coolest labels - chrome with the purple and black ink. Glad to see you back in the game.
01-03-2005, 06:05 PM
#44
Tech Regular
Thanks for the kind words that track brings back a lot of memories and a lot od headaches always loved the florida people ! some of the nicest around ! and yes mory mears did use are batteries for quiet some time thanks! if i can ever be of assistance please ask! il be working with tony on developing and r&d work for him ! again thanks for the kind words!
01-03-2005, 06:27 PM
#45
Tech Adept
crimson eagle
.
Chris you are right on , ambient temp vs battery temp is very critical
.
In Northern California where I am, it can get to 110 ambient temp in the summer, the cells don't appreciate this. My method for using cells will be to buy at the start of the winter/Indoor season. And use temp charging to 115 or 120. In the summer I'll peak charge probably with a low delta, knowing my cells will be trashed by the time the winter season starts, then buy more.
Chris you are right on , ambient temp vs battery temp is very critical