Proposed R.O.A.R. rules change
01-12-2011, 06:43 PM
#286
Mr HOWARD maybe you can clear some things up if i have them wrong you have a better feel on over seas racing then i do .
but if i read alot of the race reports right all the big races over seas run two classes for sedan and two for 1/12 stock (or spec) and open mod and from what i know the spec class is a spec speedo and motor and if you dont own them you can rent on for the event for a small fee . it seems like this is probally the best thing for racing i can no longer see the reason to have 4 differnt classes for the same class 17.5 open 17.5 spec 13.5 open and mod especally when the lap time for the two boosted classes are tenths off what a open mod class is ..
i would love to go back to the days on when a driver won a race not a lap top..
mark smyka
but if i read alot of the race reports right all the big races over seas run two classes for sedan and two for 1/12 stock (or spec) and open mod and from what i know the spec class is a spec speedo and motor and if you dont own them you can rent on for the event for a small fee . it seems like this is probally the best thing for racing i can no longer see the reason to have 4 differnt classes for the same class 17.5 open 17.5 spec 13.5 open and mod especally when the lap time for the two boosted classes are tenths off what a open mod class is ..
i would love to go back to the days on when a driver won a race not a lap top..
mark smyka
So that's why I am not winning.... it's my laptop? I thought it was my driving, I mean I have The Tekin and all that fast equipment, the best car ,the best battery...so I need to upgrade my laptop to win, who knew it would be that easy?
01-12-2011, 06:48 PM
#287
from my findings, boosted classes just feel aweful to drive,
in the uk we have 3 main classes as club and regional series level.
13.5 boosted,
10.5 boosted,
and mod
the problems we're finding, in the boosted stock classes are, that the motors just have no feel to them, to get them to go "fast" you have to crank the timing on, which destroys the feel, then makes them rubbish to drive,
stock is supposed to be about smoothness and cornerspeed and lines, not point it remotely straight and pin it.......
thats why mod is so nice, no boost, real motor feeling, more driveable, better racing.
id much rather see stock as much slower classes, zero boost, bring back some driving talent and have people move up the classes when there ability allows...
not just sit in the stock classes and go along with the updates to firmwares which gives xxths a lap more performance each year.
i still drive stock at club level, (10.5 boosted) which to be honest, isnt a nice class to drive, not enough feel to drive it smoothly, and too much power to drive it aggressively. (due to the boost)
ive been and raced in the ETS series in the stock class, (hand out blinky esc, hand out 10deg 13.5 motor, and a control gearing)
all the cars are so close on performance its brilliant, the motor has the feel you require to drive it proper, and theres no question over which battery is best. becuase at those amp draws there is such a small difference in C ratings thes neglegable.
id take unboosted racing over boosted anyday of the week.
Luke
in the uk we have 3 main classes as club and regional series level.
13.5 boosted,
10.5 boosted,
and mod
the problems we're finding, in the boosted stock classes are, that the motors just have no feel to them, to get them to go "fast" you have to crank the timing on, which destroys the feel, then makes them rubbish to drive,
stock is supposed to be about smoothness and cornerspeed and lines, not point it remotely straight and pin it.......
thats why mod is so nice, no boost, real motor feeling, more driveable, better racing.
id much rather see stock as much slower classes, zero boost, bring back some driving talent and have people move up the classes when there ability allows...
not just sit in the stock classes and go along with the updates to firmwares which gives xxths a lap more performance each year.
i still drive stock at club level, (10.5 boosted) which to be honest, isnt a nice class to drive, not enough feel to drive it smoothly, and too much power to drive it aggressively. (due to the boost)
ive been and raced in the ETS series in the stock class, (hand out blinky esc, hand out 10deg 13.5 motor, and a control gearing)
all the cars are so close on performance its brilliant, the motor has the feel you require to drive it proper, and theres no question over which battery is best. becuase at those amp draws there is such a small difference in C ratings thes neglegable.
id take unboosted racing over boosted anyday of the week.
Luke
01-12-2011, 07:19 PM
#288
Tech Adept
The issue is not whether to race blinky or boosted, we NEED both. The issue is to allow esc’s that can do both in the blinky class. Having low cost options and allowing existing products to be used lets the most people participate. Increasing participation and providing an easy entry class is whole point of a non boosted class. Creating entry barriers is counter productive.
We DO need boosted classes as an amature mod class. Gives people the mild mod rip they want and can handle. For many of us it is as fast as we are every going to be able to handle and have fun with. Blinky mode has a place but many need a little more adrenaline and challenge to stay interested.
We have preset suggested boosted setups in the esc that do not need a laptop. Boosted classes are fast enough to be decided by driving skill and not minor adjustments in most cases. Some people just enjoy the tweaking part, it is a hobby not a toy. For those that just want to drive we have an EASY button.
We DO need boosted classes as an amature mod class. Gives people the mild mod rip they want and can handle. For many of us it is as fast as we are every going to be able to handle and have fun with. Blinky mode has a place but many need a little more adrenaline and challenge to stay interested.
We have preset suggested boosted setups in the esc that do not need a laptop. Boosted classes are fast enough to be decided by driving skill and not minor adjustments in most cases. Some people just enjoy the tweaking part, it is a hobby not a toy. For those that just want to drive we have an EASY button.
One current dilemma for race directors is that there is no easy way to check that the Sportsman Mode profiles of various escs have no timing in them. Having to purchase and maintain the test equipment to check for cheating would add a considerable burden of both expense and labor to equipment tech at races. It would be pretty easy for any mfg who wanted to cheat (win) to add 5-6 degrees of timing to the SM setting.
Keith this is why vs.208 was outlawed...this is why Roar has chossen the direction they are talking about for 2012...
01-12-2011, 07:29 PM
#289
from my findings, boosted classes just feel aweful to drive,
in the uk we have 3 main classes as club and regional series level.
13.5 boosted,
10.5 boosted,
and mod
the problems we're finding, in the boosted stock classes are, that the motors just have no feel to them, to get them to go "fast" you have to crank the timing on, which destroys the feel, then makes them rubbish to drive,
stock is supposed to be about smoothness and cornerspeed and lines, not point it remotely straight and pin it.......
thats why mod is so nice, no boost, real motor feeling, more driveable, better racing.
id much rather see stock as much slower classes, zero boost, bring back some driving talent and have people move up the classes when there ability allows...
not just sit in the stock classes and go along with the updates to firmwares which gives xxths a lap more performance each year.
i still drive stock at club level, (10.5 boosted) which to be honest, isnt a nice class to drive, not enough feel to drive it smoothly, and too much power to drive it aggressively. (due to the boost)
ive been and raced in the ETS series in the stock class, (hand out blinky esc, hand out 10deg 13.5 motor, and a control gearing)
all the cars are so close on performance its brilliant, the motor has the feel you require to drive it proper, and theres no question over which battery is best. becuase at those amp draws there is such a small difference in C ratings thes neglegable.
id take unboosted racing over boosted anyday of the week.
Luke
in the uk we have 3 main classes as club and regional series level.
13.5 boosted,
10.5 boosted,
and mod
the problems we're finding, in the boosted stock classes are, that the motors just have no feel to them, to get them to go "fast" you have to crank the timing on, which destroys the feel, then makes them rubbish to drive,
stock is supposed to be about smoothness and cornerspeed and lines, not point it remotely straight and pin it.......
thats why mod is so nice, no boost, real motor feeling, more driveable, better racing.
id much rather see stock as much slower classes, zero boost, bring back some driving talent and have people move up the classes when there ability allows...
not just sit in the stock classes and go along with the updates to firmwares which gives xxths a lap more performance each year.
i still drive stock at club level, (10.5 boosted) which to be honest, isnt a nice class to drive, not enough feel to drive it smoothly, and too much power to drive it aggressively. (due to the boost)
ive been and raced in the ETS series in the stock class, (hand out blinky esc, hand out 10deg 13.5 motor, and a control gearing)
all the cars are so close on performance its brilliant, the motor has the feel you require to drive it proper, and theres no question over which battery is best. becuase at those amp draws there is such a small difference in C ratings thes neglegable.
id take unboosted racing over boosted anyday of the week.
Luke
Check out how smooth it was back then.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X97OjxMfnfY
01-12-2011, 09:00 PM
#290
Tech Champion
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Eric.....has ROAR thought about setting up the classes for Carpet and Asphalt independently?
For Carpet Sedan they could go with
21.5 non boost
17.5 non boost
17.5 open...most carpet tracks the lap times in mod are very close to this but more people race this class then they do Mod.
For Asphalt Sedan they could go with
21.5 non boost
17.5 open
Mod...IFMAR qualifier(most IFMAR races are on asphalt for sedan any way)
Racers can still race two classes but they cant race the top and bottom class at the same event. Also keep the bottom class amature on all surfaces.
This way everyone that races more of one type of racing will know what they are in for going to their respective national.
As far as 12th scale and WGT they seem to be doing just fine the way they are.
For Carpet Sedan they could go with
21.5 non boost
17.5 non boost
17.5 open...most carpet tracks the lap times in mod are very close to this but more people race this class then they do Mod.
For Asphalt Sedan they could go with
21.5 non boost
17.5 open
Mod...IFMAR qualifier(most IFMAR races are on asphalt for sedan any way)
Racers can still race two classes but they cant race the top and bottom class at the same event. Also keep the bottom class amature on all surfaces.
This way everyone that races more of one type of racing will know what they are in for going to their respective national.
As far as 12th scale and WGT they seem to be doing just fine the way they are.
01-12-2011, 09:23 PM
#292
EA,
I haven't read this thread much, but I want to applaud you for getting your feet wet with ROAR and helping to shape racing for the better. I'ts nice to know we have someone willing to be patient with the "experts" and keep a level head in the heat of battle.
I haven't read this thread much, but I want to applaud you for getting your feet wet with ROAR and helping to shape racing for the better. I'ts nice to know we have someone willing to be patient with the "experts" and keep a level head in the heat of battle.
01-12-2011, 09:47 PM
#293
obviously i can't speak for anyone but myself, so to me the burning issue is roar's desire to outlaw the equipment i have because i can't be trusted otherwise to play by the rules. or because of the possibility that there is someone else who is so clever as to hack into the ESC's firmware and make it blink when it shouldn't.
to me it is difficult to feel that all this concern for hapless racers isn't really disingenuous (sp?), when really the concern seems to be for helping out the hapless manufacturers that can't or won't produce a speedo that is reconfigurable.
as far as hacking speedo software, i suggest that if these people exist then their talents are being wasted on rc cars, they should consider a future in the software security industry where they can really benefit from their efforts.
PS: kudos to the speedpassion marketing department who took an inferior product and turned it into a competitive advantage, and then got the competition made obsolete to help the "sport grow.". this whole thing sounds like the 'no child left behind' crap foisted on us by georgebush and tedkennedy, where the class can only progress as fast as the slow kid picking his nose in the back of the room.
01-12-2011, 10:07 PM
#294
First off, I'm currently a ROAR member, and this is the type of thing that will GREATLY influence my decision to re-up. This has been a civil and semi-productive discussion, so now I'm here to muck all that up.
I'm always concerned with the feeling that we need to "dumb-down" a hobby that I have been passionate about for 2/3rds of my life.
A problem that I see currently, is that MOD has become undrivable for the masses, leaving us with only spec classes for the majority of the On-Road community. In this scenario we have tried to find a simple solution to suit the VASTLY different skillsets of the racers who populate these classes.
Add to that the issues that arise from having 2 different voltage levels for the two different scales of car w/in the On-Road segment. Some say 7.4v boosted 17.5 TC is too fast, and that's possibly true. I would contend that 3.7v 17.5 spec 12th scale is about as fun as watching grass grow, and my home track is only 63'x33'.
IMO, the best solution is to leave BOOSTED 17.5 as the "stock" or "Super-Stock" etc. class for TC and 12th scale. The existing equipment can still be utilized by the racers who'll continue to run these classes.
Now to make racing more attractive to the NEW racer: Institute a NEW 21.5 ZERO speedo AND motor timing class. Require NEW non-updatable speedos and NEW 21.5 motors for this class. The motors should be sealed, as this would prevent the use of tuning rotors,ceramic bearings, or any shady internal mods. I would also implement a max C-rating, and capacity rule to limit the amount of overall power available, in the hope of curbing the "gear it to meltdown" syndrome.
Note that NEW equipment is only necessary in the NEW class. If there are racers that want to step down to the NEW class, they can purchase the NEW equipment, which they would have to do anyway if they supported the current proposal by ROAR. The racers who choose to continue running the 17.5 boosted class (which I believe is the majority), could continue on, business as usual.
Under my proposal, a new class for more casual, and brand new racers has been introduced without alienating the existing racer base.
Just a thought.
I'm always concerned with the feeling that we need to "dumb-down" a hobby that I have been passionate about for 2/3rds of my life.
A problem that I see currently, is that MOD has become undrivable for the masses, leaving us with only spec classes for the majority of the On-Road community. In this scenario we have tried to find a simple solution to suit the VASTLY different skillsets of the racers who populate these classes.
Add to that the issues that arise from having 2 different voltage levels for the two different scales of car w/in the On-Road segment. Some say 7.4v boosted 17.5 TC is too fast, and that's possibly true. I would contend that 3.7v 17.5 spec 12th scale is about as fun as watching grass grow, and my home track is only 63'x33'.
IMO, the best solution is to leave BOOSTED 17.5 as the "stock" or "Super-Stock" etc. class for TC and 12th scale. The existing equipment can still be utilized by the racers who'll continue to run these classes.
Now to make racing more attractive to the NEW racer: Institute a NEW 21.5 ZERO speedo AND motor timing class. Require NEW non-updatable speedos and NEW 21.5 motors for this class. The motors should be sealed, as this would prevent the use of tuning rotors,ceramic bearings, or any shady internal mods. I would also implement a max C-rating, and capacity rule to limit the amount of overall power available, in the hope of curbing the "gear it to meltdown" syndrome.
Note that NEW equipment is only necessary in the NEW class. If there are racers that want to step down to the NEW class, they can purchase the NEW equipment, which they would have to do anyway if they supported the current proposal by ROAR. The racers who choose to continue running the 17.5 boosted class (which I believe is the majority), could continue on, business as usual.
Under my proposal, a new class for more casual, and brand new racers has been introduced without alienating the existing racer base.
Just a thought.
01-12-2011, 10:39 PM
#295
for one i think it is crap if Roar is going to say that a speed control that is cap able of blinky is un usable. sounds like a push form some one else to me. i dont know if they have any connection at all but this was posted in a diffrent thread not long after this news about roar came out. its from the company Hobbywing (they make speed passion). if these two are connected in anyway thanks for making it harder for a hobby shop to sell a cheaper easy to use speedo
makes me wonder....
Dear Loyal customers
I will answer your questions in the next couple of hours as i have something important to mention for the US market .
The Deal with horizon Hobby has been terminated because of many reason we wish not to discuss It's a sad day for the us racers who want other brands that they choose to use including hobbywing,speed passion and many more.It's a sad day not only for Hobbywing but also Horizon hobby who we worked tirelessly for over 6 months to get this project up and running .
Horizon is no way to blame for any of this they have worked really hard with us the problem is outside of horizon hobby and out of the control and hobbywing and Horizon .
It has been real battle in the last couple of weeks which led to my trip to china in short notice but what doesnt kill us only makes us stronger
Now enough of the bad news and more into the good news as we cannot establish a distributor for the usa as of the above statement we have decided to personally to service every canadian,us and southamerican citizen with hobbywing products direct to the dealers who want to purchase and the end user this way the pricing will stay competative worldwide .
We will in time meaning a couple of weeks after chinese new year which gives the usa time to settle after the winter period we will be setting up a online website and going direct from our factory to the usa to service you all .This will only be for the us continent for the time being .
We will set up a service faciltity with exceptable shipping rates for returns just to cater for our us citizens and as you know our customer support and tech support is state of the Art .
So the conclusion is we are giving you an easier path for purchase and support as we can no longer work with politics this is a business and a sport not washington .
This is a good thing for the dealer and end user .
Believe me when i tell you there is more to come from Hobbywing from what i saw with the limited time i had at the factory many more to come cant say much for the time being..
I will answer your questions in the next couple of hours as i have something important to mention for the US market .
The Deal with horizon Hobby has been terminated because of many reason we wish not to discuss It's a sad day for the us racers who want other brands that they choose to use including hobbywing,speed passion and many more.It's a sad day not only for Hobbywing but also Horizon hobby who we worked tirelessly for over 6 months to get this project up and running .
Horizon is no way to blame for any of this they have worked really hard with us the problem is outside of horizon hobby and out of the control and hobbywing and Horizon .
It has been real battle in the last couple of weeks which led to my trip to china in short notice but what doesnt kill us only makes us stronger
Now enough of the bad news and more into the good news as we cannot establish a distributor for the usa as of the above statement we have decided to personally to service every canadian,us and southamerican citizen with hobbywing products direct to the dealers who want to purchase and the end user this way the pricing will stay competative worldwide .
We will in time meaning a couple of weeks after chinese new year which gives the usa time to settle after the winter period we will be setting up a online website and going direct from our factory to the usa to service you all .This will only be for the us continent for the time being .
We will set up a service faciltity with exceptable shipping rates for returns just to cater for our us citizens and as you know our customer support and tech support is state of the Art .
So the conclusion is we are giving you an easier path for purchase and support as we can no longer work with politics this is a business and a sport not washington .
This is a good thing for the dealer and end user .
Believe me when i tell you there is more to come from Hobbywing from what i saw with the limited time i had at the factory many more to come cant say much for the time being..
01-12-2011, 10:42 PM
#296
for one i think it is crap if Roar is going to say that a speed control that is cap able of blinky is un usable. sounds like a push form some one else to me. i dont know if they have any connection at all but this was posted in a diffrent thread not long after this news about roar came out. its from the company Hobbywing (they make speed passion)
makes me wonder....
makes me wonder....
01-13-2011, 12:10 AM
#297
17.5 no boost, stock
17.5 or 13.5 boosted, pro stock, which 80 % of the guys showing up at nationals should run anyway
MOD.
roar to spec a esc for novice and stock, take bids from the factorys to see who gets to make it. OR charge 100 entry and buy in bulk from hobbywing or speedpassion and have handout escs.
ok, OK, done. lock the thread now
01-13-2011, 02:40 AM
#298
It seems to me that ROAR is offering no stability to it's rules and hence changing them too often.
Banning a type of ESC should (in my eyes) only be seen as a very last resort.
I don't see what ROAR is trying to achieve either by doing this, and im sure this same question is being asked by others with an ESC that falls into this category, and others. I see no real honest answer to why this proposed rule could go ahead.
At the very least, it is a backwards step and if no one else is going to say it, I will.
ROAR, are you are in effect saying manufacturers cannot be trusted to provide software for 0 timing? yes or no? I won't cloud my vision of the situation, because that's how it looks.
Because banning such ESC's in my eyes is telling everyone indirectly that rather than looking at getting a uniform solution which affects more than one manufacturer, you are simply waving the middle finger at the issue and banning the ESC's, which seems rather cowardly.
What courage is being shown by ROAR to it's members?
I'm damn happy I don't have to abide by ROAR's rules at times like this and I feel sorry for the racers it's going to effect should the ruling go ahead.
if this post needs editing by a mod for any reason to keep the topic open, feel free to do so....
(rant over)
Banning a type of ESC should (in my eyes) only be seen as a very last resort.
I don't see what ROAR is trying to achieve either by doing this, and im sure this same question is being asked by others with an ESC that falls into this category, and others. I see no real honest answer to why this proposed rule could go ahead.
At the very least, it is a backwards step and if no one else is going to say it, I will.
ROAR, are you are in effect saying manufacturers cannot be trusted to provide software for 0 timing? yes or no? I won't cloud my vision of the situation, because that's how it looks.
Because banning such ESC's in my eyes is telling everyone indirectly that rather than looking at getting a uniform solution which affects more than one manufacturer, you are simply waving the middle finger at the issue and banning the ESC's, which seems rather cowardly.
What courage is being shown by ROAR to it's members?
I'm damn happy I don't have to abide by ROAR's rules at times like this and I feel sorry for the racers it's going to effect should the ruling go ahead.
if this post needs editing by a mod for any reason to keep the topic open, feel free to do so....
(rant over)
01-13-2011, 03:34 AM
#299
My thoughts on stock racing:
I think that the only thing Roar should be considering changing is the motor. The speed controls should not be the issue. Saying that a novice racer have to spend money to compete is not accurate. When I started racing you needed:
I love the effort that Roar is making to be present and address the issues that we face today.
I think that the only thing Roar should be considering changing is the motor. The speed controls should not be the issue. Saying that a novice racer have to spend money to compete is not accurate. When I started racing you needed:
- motor lathe
- an assortment of brushes
- assortment of comm drops
- hood alignment tool
- a jig to hold your brushes so that you could drill your hole
- a brush sloting tool
- brush serator
- assortment of springs
- spring bending tool
- then you needed an extra charger that ran motors to break in your stock motor. I pitted next to Martin Crisp one time and he left his motor running all night to seat his brushes.
- Fantom Dyno w/ LAPTOP <---- This could almost be the punchline
- Access to a magnet zapper
I love the effort that Roar is making to be present and address the issues that we face today.
01-13-2011, 04:38 AM
#300
Tech Master
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First off, I'm currently a ROAR member, and this is the type of thing that will GREATLY influence my decision to re-up. This has been a civil and semi-productive discussion, so now I'm here to muck all that up.
I'm always concerned with the feeling that we need to "dumb-down" a hobby that I have been passionate about for 2/3rds of my life.
A problem that I see currently, is that MOD has become undrivable for the masses, leaving us with only spec classes for the majority of the On-Road community. In this scenario we have tried to find a simple solution to suit the VASTLY different skillsets of the racers who populate these classes.
Add to that the issues that arise from having 2 different voltage levels for the two different scales of car w/in the On-Road segment. Some say 7.4v boosted 17.5 TC is too fast, and that's possibly true. I would contend that 3.7v 17.5 spec 12th scale is about as fun as watching grass grow, and my home track is only 63'x33'.
IMO, the best solution is to leave BOOSTED 17.5 as the "stock" or "Super-Stock" etc. class for TC and 12th scale. The existing equipment can still be utilized by the racers who'll continue to run these classes.
Now to make racing more attractive to the NEW racer: Institute a NEW 21.5 ZERO speedo AND motor timing class. Require NEW non-updatable speedos and NEW 21.5 motors for this class. The motors should be sealed, as this would prevent the use of tuning rotors,ceramic bearings, or any shady internal mods. I would also implement a max C-rating, and capacity rule to limit the amount of overall power available, in the hope of curbing the "gear it to meltdown" syndrome.
Note that NEW equipment is only necessary in the NEW class. If there are racers that want to step down to the NEW class, they can purchase the NEW equipment, which they would have to do anyway if they supported the current proposal by ROAR. The racers who choose to continue running the 17.5 boosted class (which I believe is the majority), could continue on, business as usual.
Under my proposal, a new class for more casual, and brand new racers has been introduced without alienating the existing racer base.
Just a thought.
I'm always concerned with the feeling that we need to "dumb-down" a hobby that I have been passionate about for 2/3rds of my life.
A problem that I see currently, is that MOD has become undrivable for the masses, leaving us with only spec classes for the majority of the On-Road community. In this scenario we have tried to find a simple solution to suit the VASTLY different skillsets of the racers who populate these classes.
Add to that the issues that arise from having 2 different voltage levels for the two different scales of car w/in the On-Road segment. Some say 7.4v boosted 17.5 TC is too fast, and that's possibly true. I would contend that 3.7v 17.5 spec 12th scale is about as fun as watching grass grow, and my home track is only 63'x33'.
IMO, the best solution is to leave BOOSTED 17.5 as the "stock" or "Super-Stock" etc. class for TC and 12th scale. The existing equipment can still be utilized by the racers who'll continue to run these classes.
Now to make racing more attractive to the NEW racer: Institute a NEW 21.5 ZERO speedo AND motor timing class. Require NEW non-updatable speedos and NEW 21.5 motors for this class. The motors should be sealed, as this would prevent the use of tuning rotors,ceramic bearings, or any shady internal mods. I would also implement a max C-rating, and capacity rule to limit the amount of overall power available, in the hope of curbing the "gear it to meltdown" syndrome.
Note that NEW equipment is only necessary in the NEW class. If there are racers that want to step down to the NEW class, they can purchase the NEW equipment, which they would have to do anyway if they supported the current proposal by ROAR. The racers who choose to continue running the 17.5 boosted class (which I believe is the majority), could continue on, business as usual.
Under my proposal, a new class for more casual, and brand new racers has been introduced without alienating the existing racer base.
Just a thought.