"Silvercan" Racing - The Good, The Bad, The Ugly
10-13-2010, 10:30 AM
#31
So what would be a reasonable RPM limit that would not exclude people who take the time to break in their motor and then maintain it regularly, but at the same time keep tweaked motors out? And what is a good method of checking them?
10-13-2010, 10:42 AM
#32
Tech Master
We still use Silver Cans in our stock touring and Mini classes, and until the end of this year use 1300 NiCd's, so i've got a fair insight as to how things are right now.
There are a lot of people (me included) that want to go awway from silver can and into brushless for touring at least, but it's not to level the playing field. It's to remove the false-economy that silver can is cheap.
It IS cheap if you're only ever going to be a club basher in that class, but as soon as you want to try something else, you have to buy a brushless set-up. Having an all-comers class with silver can at club level would allow for the guys that just want a bash.
Also, there are lots of people that tweak their motors, when they aren't allowed to, but you will never get away from a**holes no matter what you do to the rules.
There are a lot of people (me included) that want to go awway from silver can and into brushless for touring at least, but it's not to level the playing field. It's to remove the false-economy that silver can is cheap.
It IS cheap if you're only ever going to be a club basher in that class, but as soon as you want to try something else, you have to buy a brushless set-up. Having an all-comers class with silver can at club level would allow for the guys that just want a bash.
Also, there are lots of people that tweak their motors, when they aren't allowed to, but you will never get away from a**holes no matter what you do to the rules.
10-13-2010, 10:52 AM
#33
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Bob, you know that we are more or less on the same page. I just don't see why we have to try and make everything so 'equal'. It's like some cuh-rayzy GenY entitlement thing. Equal is, well, bad. It discourages people (and the hobby) from improving their lot and moving forward.
To use a previous analogy of yours (maybe in a different thread), some people have mad chassis setup skills; some have innate driving ability; some are better at other components of making these little toy cars go fast, like motors. A few people even embody ALL of those things. But...
I wouldn't force a good driver to drive badly, and I wouldn't insist that a guy's good chassis setup be randomly tweaked, just to "make things even" so that I feel I have a better chance of winning. Maybe that's because I come from a time and place where Life isn't "even", the strong survive, and the weak (or untalented, or those unwilling to put in the time and effort to become better) wind up in the D Main.
Look, this whole motor thing is not as complex as people represent it. It's not "VooDoo", it's science. It's freaking PHYSICS. If people take the time and put in the brain power and do the research and make the effort, then their motors will be as fast (or faster- remember, we're trying to improve) as anything that comes out of The Lab. You know that, you've done it. James White figured it out long before I did.
To use a previous analogy of yours (maybe in a different thread), some people have mad chassis setup skills; some have innate driving ability; some are better at other components of making these little toy cars go fast, like motors. A few people even embody ALL of those things. But...
I wouldn't force a good driver to drive badly, and I wouldn't insist that a guy's good chassis setup be randomly tweaked, just to "make things even" so that I feel I have a better chance of winning. Maybe that's because I come from a time and place where Life isn't "even", the strong survive, and the weak (or untalented, or those unwilling to put in the time and effort to become better) wind up in the D Main.
Look, this whole motor thing is not as complex as people represent it. It's not "VooDoo", it's science. It's freaking PHYSICS. If people take the time and put in the brain power and do the research and make the effort, then their motors will be as fast (or faster- remember, we're trying to improve) as anything that comes out of The Lab. You know that, you've done it. James White figured it out long before I did.
10-13-2010, 11:04 AM
#34
Doc, you are 100% correct.
Just make sure that class is called "OPEN" silver can or don't even limit it to silver can if you want to make it a racer or tuner class or would that be trying to keep things only a little "equal" by saying silver can only?
Just make sure that class is called "OPEN" silver can or don't even limit it to silver can if you want to make it a racer or tuner class or would that be trying to keep things only a little "equal" by saying silver can only?
10-13-2010, 11:47 AM
#36
Doc pretty much said it all. Equal opportunity is great. Insisting on equal results, maybe not so great.
Well, pretty much said all Ive wanted to say, but will read with some interest. To people much newer to the debate, this has been going on for many years.
To the brushless folks. Why are you like religious zealots that won't be happy until you achieve a conversion to Brushless. I happen to be a Buddhist and have a "born again Christian" child. Even she is tolerant enough to leave me that freedom. Insisting that every class should run a brushless motor is a little irritating. What's even more irritating is trying to spell out what motor is best for each class. Someone even advocated a 25.5 for a Mini. Saw several people say they should use 21.5 in Mini. I wonder if they have ever tried it. I'm pretty sure they haven't. The only Mini I've seen with a brushless had a 15.5 and was just slightly faster than a silvercan. It was the property of and being wheeled by one of the best Mini guys in SoCal, so we can rule out most of the variables.
I'm willing to admit it when I'm wrong, but I'm almost always right. So a challenge to the advocates of 21.5 or 25.5 for Mini. Put one of these motors in and if it performs like a GOOD silvercan (12.5k@5v) I'll willingly try a brushless motor. It doesnt take that long to do a conversion especially in a M05. Please, prove me wrong.
Last edited by Granpa; 10-13-2010 at 01:04 PM. Reason: addition
10-13-2010, 11:56 AM
#38
Bob, you know that we are more or less on the same page. I just don't see why we have to try and make everything so 'equal'. It's like some cuh-rayzy GenY entitlement thing. Equal is, well, bad. It discourages people (and the hobby) from improving their lot and moving forward.
To use a previous analogy of yours (maybe in a different thread), some people have mad chassis setup skills; some have innate driving ability; some are better at other components of making these little toy cars go fast, like motors. A few people even embody ALL of those things. But...
I wouldn't force a good driver to drive badly, and I wouldn't insist that a guy's good chassis setup be randomly tweaked, just to "make things even" so that I feel I have a better chance of winning. Maybe that's because I come from a time and place where Life isn't "even", the strong survive, and the weak (or untalented, or those unwilling to put in the time and effort to become better) wind up in the D Main.
Look, this whole motor thing is not as complex as people represent it. It's not "VooDoo", it's science. It's freaking PHYSICS. If people take the time and put in the brain power and do the research and make the effort, then their motors will be as fast (or faster- remember, we're trying to improve) as anything that comes out of The Lab. You know that, you've done it. James White figured it out long before I did.
To use a previous analogy of yours (maybe in a different thread), some people have mad chassis setup skills; some have innate driving ability; some are better at other components of making these little toy cars go fast, like motors. A few people even embody ALL of those things. But...
I wouldn't force a good driver to drive badly, and I wouldn't insist that a guy's good chassis setup be randomly tweaked, just to "make things even" so that I feel I have a better chance of winning. Maybe that's because I come from a time and place where Life isn't "even", the strong survive, and the weak (or untalented, or those unwilling to put in the time and effort to become better) wind up in the D Main.
Look, this whole motor thing is not as complex as people represent it. It's not "VooDoo", it's science. It's freaking PHYSICS. If people take the time and put in the brain power and do the research and make the effort, then their motors will be as fast (or faster- remember, we're trying to improve) as anything that comes out of The Lab. You know that, you've done it. James White figured it out long before I did.
Brush motor tuning is one of the biggest pains in the ass ever, even with rebuildable motors. This made even harder with no visible means of tuning.
I have been to enough handout brush motor races in the old days to never want anything to do with that crap again. The only reason I will deal with it at all is that I like F1 and until things change, 540 is the only game in town
I still can't fathom why we are asking people to keep polishing turds, especially the newer people classes like mini attract, when there is a perfect viable alternative available.
10-13-2010, 12:13 PM
#39
And if those turd polishers want to run em against the 21.5 (so they don't have to buy brushless), they will find out that they are going to be very competitive cuz some of those turds have $#!+ all over my 21.5 setup.
Therefore I repeat, again, the fact that 21.5 and Silver cans (open limit) have already proven that they do well together.
I ran my 21.5 in my FF03 at Tamiya on a practice day and I did not outrun the quick silver cans although I did not get demoralized either.
Next fun race really does need to see this cuz it's old news to the F1 crowd and no, not all the racers jumped ship to the 21.5 cuz some like the screamin silver cans and all that they represent such as tuner skills and some satisfaction that they can still hang.
Don't expect your box stocker to win any holeshot awards although it can be a tuning aid to help control a finicky setup.
Therefore I repeat, again, the fact that 21.5 and Silver cans (open limit) have already proven that they do well together.
I ran my 21.5 in my FF03 at Tamiya on a practice day and I did not outrun the quick silver cans although I did not get demoralized either.
Next fun race really does need to see this cuz it's old news to the F1 crowd and no, not all the racers jumped ship to the 21.5 cuz some like the screamin silver cans and all that they represent such as tuner skills and some satisfaction that they can still hang.
Don't expect your box stocker to win any holeshot awards although it can be a tuning aid to help control a finicky setup.
10-13-2010, 12:34 PM
#40
Tech Adept
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I'm sure these sentiments have been mentioned in other threads, but isn't the whole idea of a silver can to run the kit that came in the box that the newbie got as a gift or first RC car?
Why are people so obsessed with tuning them? Why not try and get 19T or 27T brushed motors to hang with brushless if you are so keen to prove your tuning skills?
I think the whole "tuning silver can" idea is missing the point. Do the tuners get satisfaction in killing some 12 year old kid down the straightaway in a spec class that is aimed at beginners? It may sound harsh, but this whole tuning silver can obsession seems ridiculous to me.
My $0.02.
Why are people so obsessed with tuning them? Why not try and get 19T or 27T brushed motors to hang with brushless if you are so keen to prove your tuning skills?
I think the whole "tuning silver can" idea is missing the point. Do the tuners get satisfaction in killing some 12 year old kid down the straightaway in a spec class that is aimed at beginners? It may sound harsh, but this whole tuning silver can obsession seems ridiculous to me.
My $0.02.
10-13-2010, 12:52 PM
#41
The bad and the ugly:
Page three of this thread.
Page three of this thread.
10-13-2010, 12:59 PM
#42
Wood, better to have it here than drudging it up on other non SC related threads.
Good discussion guys.
The best Silvercan racing I have seen was at the Tam Nats this year, not the GT4 class, but the other classes where the motors were never allowed out of a controlled zone.
There may be a small difference in 540J's as noted, but,
There is a definite distinction between "Modified 540J SC" motors, and "Out of the box 540J SC motors"
Each racing region seems to have an idea of how they like to approach this, and in some cases there are no issues, cool for you.
It just seems a bit un-fair "to me" to call it an "SC only" class and allow modified motors.
When I first started racing F1's in Socal back in the late 80's we only ran SC motors, at that time it was agreed not to eff with them, and for years that worked out well.
New racers had a great spec chassis and motor to race with, the class grew in popularity almost over night.
I understand where some of the "tuners" are coming from, I just don't agree that the SC is the motor to be tuned, there are other motors out there that have known tuning variables, so when a racer enters that class he or she knows what they are in for.
Whereas with the SC racing, it is a bit of a murky affair, is it spec/kit/stock, or are we racing mod.
Do we really need to resort to pulling motors at club races to check rpm limits ?
That sounds like a p.i.t.a.
just my $.02
Good discussion guys.
The best Silvercan racing I have seen was at the Tam Nats this year, not the GT4 class, but the other classes where the motors were never allowed out of a controlled zone.
There may be a small difference in 540J's as noted, but,
There is a definite distinction between "Modified 540J SC" motors, and "Out of the box 540J SC motors"
Each racing region seems to have an idea of how they like to approach this, and in some cases there are no issues, cool for you.
It just seems a bit un-fair "to me" to call it an "SC only" class and allow modified motors.
When I first started racing F1's in Socal back in the late 80's we only ran SC motors, at that time it was agreed not to eff with them, and for years that worked out well.
New racers had a great spec chassis and motor to race with, the class grew in popularity almost over night.
I understand where some of the "tuners" are coming from, I just don't agree that the SC is the motor to be tuned, there are other motors out there that have known tuning variables, so when a racer enters that class he or she knows what they are in for.
Whereas with the SC racing, it is a bit of a murky affair, is it spec/kit/stock, or are we racing mod.
Do we really need to resort to pulling motors at club races to check rpm limits ?
That sounds like a p.i.t.a.
just my $.02
10-13-2010, 01:07 PM
#43
That's the whole point, stock silver cans for cost and appeal to new racers as well as seasoned racers to show how there is more to it than just motor.
Chassis set up and "maintenance" of that motor will be learned along with driving skills.
Let them see that there is a pecking order that is not established by horsepower alone.
Learning to tweek these motors for more performance is not a bad thing but should be limited to running in an agreed upon open class/event.
Chassis set up and "maintenance" of that motor will be learned along with driving skills.
Let them see that there is a pecking order that is not established by horsepower alone.
Learning to tweek these motors for more performance is not a bad thing but should be limited to running in an agreed upon open class/event.
10-13-2010, 01:14 PM
#44
Here is what is working at our track (small high banked carpet oval). We developed a new class. It is any 1/12th chassis, a Mcallister 1980 Monte Carlo body, any 1/12th foam tires, any mini size lipo up to 2500 MAH, fixed gearing of 88 spur and 18 pinion (4.88 ratio), and everyone uses the Axial 27 turn brushed motor. Only exception is if the motor pod is one of the older and they can't get the pinion and spur to mesh; we allow 98 spur and 20 pinion (4.90 ratio).
I set up a car like this and tested it with my own equipment. Let other drivers test it and then we (club) voted on the rules. Since we have introduced this class it has gone from my first entry to 10 active racers and 6more building cars. This is a big class for us as we are a small club.
Is it fun...you bet; is the racing close...to the wire; has anyone wanted to quit....none; are we keeping the class this winter...absolutely.
The comment I hear most is that this is the most fun a racer has had in a long time. You must know how to set up the car and drive for the win. To help newbies, any of us with experience will set down and go through their cars, show them what is adjusted, how, and why. This is helping us grow our track and introduce new racers to RC.
I set up a car like this and tested it with my own equipment. Let other drivers test it and then we (club) voted on the rules. Since we have introduced this class it has gone from my first entry to 10 active racers and 6more building cars. This is a big class for us as we are a small club.
Is it fun...you bet; is the racing close...to the wire; has anyone wanted to quit....none; are we keeping the class this winter...absolutely.
The comment I hear most is that this is the most fun a racer has had in a long time. You must know how to set up the car and drive for the win. To help newbies, any of us with experience will set down and go through their cars, show them what is adjusted, how, and why. This is helping us grow our track and introduce new racers to RC.
10-13-2010, 01:33 PM
#45
I won't race silver cans anymore, nor can I recommend them to newbies with a clear conscience, and that's a shame.
To me, the solution is simple -- vote with your feet.
If you don't like silver can racing, don't race it! It will die a natural death, or the 2-3 die-hards who are into playing with the motors can continue to race each other forever in their bubble.
There's a 21.5 in my F1 and a 21.5 in my FF03 and I'm not going back.