Kyosho TF-6
11-19-2012, 11:31 AM
#586
Sorry to hear about your experience with the car on carpet. I went practicing with John yesterday and we really made a big step. The car is far less twitchy now due to running the rear diff in high position which keeps the rear from pushing and the much wider suspension setup with the B-F blocks in rear. Please give the setup posted below a chance next time you go out, I'm very certain this will make the car much better to drive.
Do you think your set up will work on CPX tyres ???
11-19-2012, 12:45 PM
#587
Sorry to hear about your experience with the car on carpet. I went practicing with John yesterday and we really made a big step. The car is far less twitchy now due to running the rear diff in high position which keeps the rear from pushing and the much wider suspension setup with the B-F blocks in rear. Please give the setup posted below a chance next time you go out, I'm very certain this will make the car much better to drive.
11-19-2012, 01:53 PM
#588
Hi Theatriks,
As Vasco stated, yesterday was a really good day and we found some new options on combatting traction roll and a desire to find an easier, consistent car on high traction carpet. Could you please give us some more information on the setup you've been running on carpet? Also things like tire prep and such. You state that your main problem is a twitchy/nervous car, does this also involve traction rolling?? The setup Vasco posted should be a good starting point any how as this was run on a high traction tight carpet track. If the car still seems to be too aggresive you could also try running thinner oil in the dampers, yesterday I ended up running 3 hole pistons 1.2mm holes, 350oil front and 450oil in the rear. Using a thinner oil up front takes the edge off the initial steering, makes the car less nervous and allows the front end to roll a bit more. One thing we also tried was running all dampers with full rebound and this turned out to be somewhat of a disaster as traction roll was pretty much instintanious XD. You said you weren't able to get absolute zero rebound in the shocks, could you elaborate on how you build them? If there are any other questions don't hesitate to ask. Fyi, Vasco is running stock and I am running mod. Good luck!
As Vasco stated, yesterday was a really good day and we found some new options on combatting traction roll and a desire to find an easier, consistent car on high traction carpet. Could you please give us some more information on the setup you've been running on carpet? Also things like tire prep and such. You state that your main problem is a twitchy/nervous car, does this also involve traction rolling?? The setup Vasco posted should be a good starting point any how as this was run on a high traction tight carpet track. If the car still seems to be too aggresive you could also try running thinner oil in the dampers, yesterday I ended up running 3 hole pistons 1.2mm holes, 350oil front and 450oil in the rear. Using a thinner oil up front takes the edge off the initial steering, makes the car less nervous and allows the front end to roll a bit more. One thing we also tried was running all dampers with full rebound and this turned out to be somewhat of a disaster as traction roll was pretty much instintanious XD. You said you weren't able to get absolute zero rebound in the shocks, could you elaborate on how you build them? If there are any other questions don't hesitate to ask. Fyi, Vasco is running stock and I am running mod. Good luck!
11-19-2012, 02:14 PM
#589
Hey thanks a lot john that sounds like some pretty solid advice and thanks for being there support wise....well my track is medium traction but i will be running an outta towner where the track is super high traction so i will definately save this set up.....i will also try this set up next race weekend......the car this past race was just very twitchy but i was running heaver oil in the shocks which i normally dont do so that might have been the reason.....as for shock building process i build like the manual shows but did use Vascos advice on replacing an o-ring with an aluminum spacer.....i fill the shocks up ...pump the piston to get the air bubbles out ....vaccuum pump all 4....roll the bladder on the cyclinder from one end to the other and screw on the cap......and i usually end up with maybe 20 to 30 % of rebound even with the drilled shock cap.......i wonder if i fillled them upside down?....not sure maybe will give that a try lol
11-19-2012, 09:36 PM
#590
11-20-2012, 03:31 AM
#591
11-27-2012, 02:11 PM
#592
Tech Apprentice
tf6
hello from spain
11-27-2012, 02:18 PM
#593
Tech Apprentice
hello from spain valencia.
vasco
I tried it the servo and I feel very good solution.
've tried entail using the differential with two pinions?
not be spent before the gears that are only two? or do not care to take four?
thanks and regards
vasco
I tried it the servo and I feel very good solution.
've tried entail using the differential with two pinions?
not be spent before the gears that are only two? or do not care to take four?
thanks and regards
11-27-2012, 06:28 PM
#594
Tech Master
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@Vasco C
What does "pushing from the rear" mean?
What does "pushing from the rear" mean?
11-28-2012, 04:52 AM
#595
Registered User
Hi guys,
@electojer, I'm glad you like the servo solution, it seems to be working quite well indeed.
I only used 2 gears in the gear diff to see if this would smoothen it up a little bit. It definitely does, is it an advantage? I don't know to be honest.. Lightening up the regular diff setting could also be done with thinner oil instead of removing gears.
@dontfeelcold, the 'pushing' rear gives you the feeling that the rear end of the car wants to overtake the front causing the car to feel twitchy to drive. It has something to do with the rather big angle the rear driveshafts are making from the hub to the diff side. John explained it to me but I forgot about the details, maybe he can help us out?
@electojer, I'm glad you like the servo solution, it seems to be working quite well indeed.
I only used 2 gears in the gear diff to see if this would smoothen it up a little bit. It definitely does, is it an advantage? I don't know to be honest.. Lightening up the regular diff setting could also be done with thinner oil instead of removing gears.
@dontfeelcold, the 'pushing' rear gives you the feeling that the rear end of the car wants to overtake the front causing the car to feel twitchy to drive. It has something to do with the rather big angle the rear driveshafts are making from the hub to the diff side. John explained it to me but I forgot about the details, maybe he can help us out?
11-29-2012, 06:31 AM
#596
12-01-2012, 02:55 PM
#597
Hey Vascos it's too bad the Atlantic Ocean is seperating us....because I owe you a pint for that setup.....golden!
12-03-2012, 10:28 AM
#598
Registered User
@theatriks, haha, I'm really happy to hear that it changed things around! I went testing again yesterday and made huge progress yet again. Please read below!
@everybody...
As you all might have found out the TF6sp is quite a handful when driving on carpet and it's obvious that the handling of the
car needs to be improved. I've been out testing with John for a couple of times now and we think we have made quite some
progress already. Due to a rather 'huge' breakthrough we had yesterday we thought it'd be a good idea to give you all a small
update of the things we've been working on.
Weight balance
The most significant and important change we made is changing the weight balance of the car. The main problem of the car is
that it's quite tricky to drive on carpet. By moving the motor and the battery forwards the front we found the car way more stable and easy
to drive compared to the regular layout. It improves the handling in every single way, it smoothens out the ride without compromising
on steering while corner speed is being increased!
Just a few small modifications are to be done in order to run a different weight balance. First off cut the front Lipo holder in a way that
just the horizontal bit is still in the car so the lipo can slide to the front and rear but can't touch the belt. Then create a new lipo holder
on the rear side of the lipo that pushes the lipo forwards by 3.5mm compared to the regular position. The lipo will now close the front
tape gap, this is not a problem.. just tape the battery like your normally do.
The motor needs to be more towards the front too. Just put it in the most forward position that's possible on the motor mount and use the
right (bigger) pinion and (bigger) spur.
To transfer the weight even more towards the front I moved the entire suspension 1mm backwards. All the shims are now in front of the
suspension arms. Keep in mind: remove 1mm from ackermann too if you do this to keep the same angle. Add 1mm shim on the front shock
mounting (lower) and remove 1mm on the rear shock mounting (lower) in order to keep the shocks perfectly straight.
Last but not least, I moved the servo 2mm towards to the front by taking out the 2mm spacer that most people run on their std. mounting posts.
Rear diff position
The car felt rather 'pushy' from the rear on carpet mainly because of the diff positioning. The standard (low) position puts the rear driveshafts
under a rather extreme angle which effects the way the driveshaft operates badly. When you accelerate a driveshaft wants to straighten itself
out due to lateral forces. Considering the angle the axle makes with std setting, straightening out becomes very difficult which creates friction and
the car to feel as nervous as it does.
To eliminate this you have to run the diff in 'high' position. This allows the driveshafts to operate under a more horizontal like angle and
smoothens out the ride.
Wider rear
Another very important improvement we made is the wider rear settings on the car. By using the widest option on the rear-rear block (which is F outside)
and the best suitable rear-front insert (I use B outside) to get the desired toe-in angle the car gets easier to drive, way less likely to traction roll and much better
corner speed.
Bump steer
Very simple, to eliminate bump steer just run 2mm underneath the steering knuckle.
Yokomo springs
The Yokomo blue and pink springs seem to work very well on carpet. A bit less likely to traction roll then the Tamiya springs that a lot of TF6 drivers
use. Pink front, blue rear.
Short arms
As most of you will know I'm always running the short arms. John has done some B2B testing and it seems that the shorter arms give more traction
and the car feels more 'alive'. We think this is the best option to run as long as you don't suffer from traction roll. When the traction is super high and
traction roll is a big issue then the longer arms might work better. They generate a bit less traction then the short ones.
Rear bulkheads
Most brands are using the same bulkheads in front and rear of their cars. As you know our rear bulkheads are connected with 6 screws where
the front ones are held into place with just two. I drilled some extra holes in my chassis and fitted 2 front bulkheads in the rear too. John used the regular
rear bulkheads and cutted off the 'extra' post. We both feel the car is better balanced with this configuration.
Servo modification
As some of you might have spotted on RCtech already.. I modified my servo mounting to operate in the same way the new Tamiya/Yokomo/Xray etc.mounts
do.
For explanation and pictures please check: http://www.petitrc.com/reglages/kyos...Track20121117/
Ignore the setup! Improvements have been made and the latest setup has been added to this post!
Chassis
The bottom plate of the car is touching the motor which effects the flex in a negative way. John has milled down the area underneath the motor on
our chassis plates so it's able to flex without touching the motor.
Upper bulkheads
Use the old TF6 upper bulkheads to lower the shock tower by a tiny bit.
Setup Vasco
If there are any questions, please feel free to ask!
Regards,
Vasco (and John)
@everybody...
As you all might have found out the TF6sp is quite a handful when driving on carpet and it's obvious that the handling of the
car needs to be improved. I've been out testing with John for a couple of times now and we think we have made quite some
progress already. Due to a rather 'huge' breakthrough we had yesterday we thought it'd be a good idea to give you all a small
update of the things we've been working on.
Weight balance
The most significant and important change we made is changing the weight balance of the car. The main problem of the car is
that it's quite tricky to drive on carpet. By moving the motor and the battery forwards the front we found the car way more stable and easy
to drive compared to the regular layout. It improves the handling in every single way, it smoothens out the ride without compromising
on steering while corner speed is being increased!
Just a few small modifications are to be done in order to run a different weight balance. First off cut the front Lipo holder in a way that
just the horizontal bit is still in the car so the lipo can slide to the front and rear but can't touch the belt. Then create a new lipo holder
on the rear side of the lipo that pushes the lipo forwards by 3.5mm compared to the regular position. The lipo will now close the front
tape gap, this is not a problem.. just tape the battery like your normally do.
The motor needs to be more towards the front too. Just put it in the most forward position that's possible on the motor mount and use the
right (bigger) pinion and (bigger) spur.
To transfer the weight even more towards the front I moved the entire suspension 1mm backwards. All the shims are now in front of the
suspension arms. Keep in mind: remove 1mm from ackermann too if you do this to keep the same angle. Add 1mm shim on the front shock
mounting (lower) and remove 1mm on the rear shock mounting (lower) in order to keep the shocks perfectly straight.
Last but not least, I moved the servo 2mm towards to the front by taking out the 2mm spacer that most people run on their std. mounting posts.
Rear diff position
The car felt rather 'pushy' from the rear on carpet mainly because of the diff positioning. The standard (low) position puts the rear driveshafts
under a rather extreme angle which effects the way the driveshaft operates badly. When you accelerate a driveshaft wants to straighten itself
out due to lateral forces. Considering the angle the axle makes with std setting, straightening out becomes very difficult which creates friction and
the car to feel as nervous as it does.
To eliminate this you have to run the diff in 'high' position. This allows the driveshafts to operate under a more horizontal like angle and
smoothens out the ride.
Wider rear
Another very important improvement we made is the wider rear settings on the car. By using the widest option on the rear-rear block (which is F outside)
and the best suitable rear-front insert (I use B outside) to get the desired toe-in angle the car gets easier to drive, way less likely to traction roll and much better
corner speed.
Bump steer
Very simple, to eliminate bump steer just run 2mm underneath the steering knuckle.
Yokomo springs
The Yokomo blue and pink springs seem to work very well on carpet. A bit less likely to traction roll then the Tamiya springs that a lot of TF6 drivers
use. Pink front, blue rear.
Short arms
As most of you will know I'm always running the short arms. John has done some B2B testing and it seems that the shorter arms give more traction
and the car feels more 'alive'. We think this is the best option to run as long as you don't suffer from traction roll. When the traction is super high and
traction roll is a big issue then the longer arms might work better. They generate a bit less traction then the short ones.
Rear bulkheads
Most brands are using the same bulkheads in front and rear of their cars. As you know our rear bulkheads are connected with 6 screws where
the front ones are held into place with just two. I drilled some extra holes in my chassis and fitted 2 front bulkheads in the rear too. John used the regular
rear bulkheads and cutted off the 'extra' post. We both feel the car is better balanced with this configuration.
Servo modification
As some of you might have spotted on RCtech already.. I modified my servo mounting to operate in the same way the new Tamiya/Yokomo/Xray etc.mounts
do.
For explanation and pictures please check: http://www.petitrc.com/reglages/kyos...Track20121117/
Ignore the setup! Improvements have been made and the latest setup has been added to this post!
Chassis
The bottom plate of the car is touching the motor which effects the flex in a negative way. John has milled down the area underneath the motor on
our chassis plates so it's able to flex without touching the motor.
Upper bulkheads
Use the old TF6 upper bulkheads to lower the shock tower by a tiny bit.
Setup Vasco
If there are any questions, please feel free to ask!
Regards,
Vasco (and John)
12-05-2012, 02:49 PM
#599
Vesco,
Been using your setup as a base and its great for stock ... great corner speed
First question
Upper bulkheads
Use the old TF6 upper bulkheads to lower the shock tower by a tiny bit.
What advantages will this give?
Second Question
rear track size
Moving from ( B IN) to ( C IN ) and space the rear as needed ( D OUT ) to ( E OUT ) will this increase the rear width?
Been using your setup as a base and its great for stock ... great corner speed
First question
Upper bulkheads
Use the old TF6 upper bulkheads to lower the shock tower by a tiny bit.
What advantages will this give?
Second Question
rear track size
Moving from ( B IN) to ( C IN ) and space the rear as needed ( D OUT ) to ( E OUT ) will this increase the rear width?
12-06-2012, 02:32 AM
#600
Registered User
@Me_MrThyson,
Lowering the upper bulkheads lowers the entire COG of the car. Lower COG works better in high traction (carpet) conditions for the simple fact that the car gets more responsive and less likely to traction roll. This is why the Awesomatix and the new Xray car (with the ultra low shock towers and shocks) seem to work quit well on carpet. The old TF6 upper bulkheads are a tad lower then the new ones which should give a slight advantage, however, this is such a small amount that I really doubt it's having any effect on the handling. I just use them because it should work better from a theoretical point of view
The rear track width should stay the same. You go wider on the rear-rear side but smaller on the rear-front side by exactly the same amount which should result in the same track width. However, I would recommend to go to F on the rear-rear and stick with B-in on rear-front for 3 deg toe-in. A wider rear increases the corner speed even further. If the rear of the car feels solid enough when driving try to reduce rear toe (on the rear-front block) for better corner speed, I usually use 2 deg! (F out - B out)
Lowering the upper bulkheads lowers the entire COG of the car. Lower COG works better in high traction (carpet) conditions for the simple fact that the car gets more responsive and less likely to traction roll. This is why the Awesomatix and the new Xray car (with the ultra low shock towers and shocks) seem to work quit well on carpet. The old TF6 upper bulkheads are a tad lower then the new ones which should give a slight advantage, however, this is such a small amount that I really doubt it's having any effect on the handling. I just use them because it should work better from a theoretical point of view
The rear track width should stay the same. You go wider on the rear-rear side but smaller on the rear-front side by exactly the same amount which should result in the same track width. However, I would recommend to go to F on the rear-rear and stick with B-in on rear-front for 3 deg toe-in. A wider rear increases the corner speed even further. If the rear of the car feels solid enough when driving try to reduce rear toe (on the rear-front block) for better corner speed, I usually use 2 deg! (F out - B out)