2WD electric Sedan to save the class?
12-05-2009, 02:35 PM
#16
Look, as racers we are always looking for the edge, no matter what class you race whether it is spec or mod you have to spend to compete.
If it is spec, there is always the 4 or 5 who will always race with a set of fresh tires for every heat, the highest C rating, the latest greatest esc and motor. It is just the way it is, you mention RC GT, well I race RCGT, I started with a Cyclone sport and a Novak Havoc Spec 17.5 system and some decent 25c packs, well my skills are good and getting better and now I am tired of finishing mid pack, well I need a SPX, some better batts and a deeper pool of tires to pull from, not to mention 3 or 4 bodies because those affect the handling too. Now I do this with out whining because that is what I choose to do.
If 4wd buggy is too expensive as well as any other class, move into a class you dont mind dropping cash into. Remember ANY hobby is expensive if you want to be competitve and win.
If you just want to run and hang with the guys thats fine, you can then control your spending and have fun, however if your desire is to finish top three, well that will require some commitment and expenditure of money.
If it is spec, there is always the 4 or 5 who will always race with a set of fresh tires for every heat, the highest C rating, the latest greatest esc and motor. It is just the way it is, you mention RC GT, well I race RCGT, I started with a Cyclone sport and a Novak Havoc Spec 17.5 system and some decent 25c packs, well my skills are good and getting better and now I am tired of finishing mid pack, well I need a SPX, some better batts and a deeper pool of tires to pull from, not to mention 3 or 4 bodies because those affect the handling too. Now I do this with out whining because that is what I choose to do.
If 4wd buggy is too expensive as well as any other class, move into a class you dont mind dropping cash into. Remember ANY hobby is expensive if you want to be competitve and win.
If you just want to run and hang with the guys thats fine, you can then control your spending and have fun, however if your desire is to finish top three, well that will require some commitment and expenditure of money.
12-05-2009, 02:42 PM
#17
The only way you can realize this is if everyone uses the tamiya XB series, runs whatever it came with, and lock the cars up at the track so no can "modify" it. Well even then, whoever is the lucky one that gets a good silver can will have some edge.
btw that pic at the beginning is old. look at the speedo! I remember running my RC10 with street tires back in the days.
btw that pic at the beginning is old. look at the speedo! I remember running my RC10 with street tires back in the days.
I think more than anything, tracks and hobby shops need to push new budget classes to grow the racer pool. Not just there pocket.
12-05-2009, 02:57 PM
#18
Tech Master
If you open this up, what's going stop a nutcase to go buy 20 silver cans and dyno all of them to get a really good one?
Tamiya GP rules are as spec as you can get. But even then that won't satisfy your rule of "cheap" because winning in TGP aint cheap.
Talking spec is a double edged sword imo.
12-05-2009, 03:33 PM
#19
From my Experience with an 1/10th off road class, a 2WD chassis can be more popular than current 4WD chassis in TC, this might bring more people back to this hobby for following reasons.
1: Lower chassis cost/ IMO a kit around $200 is possible
2: Less wear/economical running cost
3: Less damaged on a crash/ lots of ppl went to 1/8th off road cuz car don't break after a reasonable crash.
4: compare to smaller scale cars more room for electrics / I don't mean to say anything bad about mini-z or cup racing cars but to me they are too sensitive to set up change or too compact for human's finger size
5: Roomy layout don't need a low profile servo, Micro RX or and micro ESC
6: limited over all traction requires only a controllable horse power.
7: last but not least/ get rid of body rules. people love to race their dream cars than a Mazda 6. just like an RCGT rules lets drive some fancy cars!
what do you think?
1: Lower chassis cost/ IMO a kit around $200 is possible
2: Less wear/economical running cost
3: Less damaged on a crash/ lots of ppl went to 1/8th off road cuz car don't break after a reasonable crash.
4: compare to smaller scale cars more room for electrics / I don't mean to say anything bad about mini-z or cup racing cars but to me they are too sensitive to set up change or too compact for human's finger size
5: Roomy layout don't need a low profile servo, Micro RX or and micro ESC
6: limited over all traction requires only a controllable horse power.
7: last but not least/ get rid of body rules. people love to race their dream cars than a Mazda 6. just like an RCGT rules lets drive some fancy cars!
what do you think?
Back in the day the nitro cars had 2 wheel drive classes for 1/10 and 1/8. The idea was that with 2wd it was far more about driving and not about spending a fortune on tires. Mostly it was the old timers who remember the pan cars. As motors became more powerful the 2wd cars were just too difficult to drive, and the classes disappeared quickly.
The answer to the problems of on road electric racing are not with the cars, the motors, the batteries, or the speed controls. It's with the racers.
12-05-2009, 03:55 PM
#20
Tech Regular
World GT is still the closest thing to cheap racing that we have had in years. The cars are tough and simple. The tires can last months on carpet and still have good grip. It's nearly impossible to overheat a 13.5 motor with a single cell lipo. If the class wasn't so thin at our track, I'd build a new one myself.
12-05-2009, 04:03 PM
#21
World GT is still the closest thing to cheap racing that we have had in years. The cars are tough and simple. The tires can last months on carpet and still have good grip. It's nearly impossible to overheat a 13.5 motor with a single cell lipo. If the class wasn't so thin at our track, I'd build a new one myself.
12-05-2009, 05:24 PM
#22
here is my debates
Open wheel bodies never got popular cause hard to race side by side with that.
sure thats why we don't see too many 4WD class at off road track, we don't have to spend time wrenching and mony for 4WD to have same fun in dirt, sure I agree any hobby is expensive.
back in the days we didnt have tires like today and suspension and chassis design wasn't this good. also some of those old skool 2WD was live axle, with this state of art independent suspension designs of today I think we can drive a 2WD car fine.
agree but I dont think many want to drive a world GT in parking lot or unprepped track and also that foam tires scared lots of ppl away.
1. A kit around $200 is possible in 4wd now. But it would be a cheaply produced plastic car. The same would hold true with 2wd. If the class ever caught on you'd see expensive graphite and aluminum cars there too.
with a price tag from Losi's type-R in mind I do think $200-$299 is doable, 4 pc less aluminium CNC bulkhead, few less Ball bearings, diffs, oneway or spool kit, belt. I think that can drop the price by far.
2. Marginally less at best.
3. There's no guarantee that a 2wd chassis would be built any more rugged than a current 4wd. Sure there would be less drive trane to break but look at what normally breaks in a race, suspension arms, knuckles, etc. The same stuff would be breaking in a 2wd car.
in offroad race 4WD cars breaks lot easier that s been proven many time.
4. Yes they would be less sensitive and easier to set up than smaller scale. But more than current 4wd cars.
with all these current advanced know hows of suspension design and tuning ability I think we can handle it
5. There could be more room...it all depends how the chassis would evolve. It is likely chassis would get more narrow and lose all that space to save on weight.
yes that could happen,but still more room than any 4WD chassis.
6. Limiting traction never works. All it does is make cars less controllable and cause more accidents. Especially with newer drivers who haven't learned fine control yet. This would frustrate them quicker and get them to leave quicker, unless traction was super high.
I think problem of current TCs(electric and Gas) is caused by having too much traction, RCGT & VTA class do limiting the traction for the reason.
7. Some people want to race their dream cars. Getting rid of the rules would end up with even more performance oriented bodies and less nice looking ones, that is once the class caught on enough for manufacturers to make class specific bodies.
I rather drive a Mcralen any time over a Spd6
The DS wasn't the only 2wd suspension car made, Yokomo had a FWD, and Traxxas and Kyosho had RWD full suspension cars. If it was going to catch on it would have already.
yes there was but back then we didnt have this much problem yet, the class was so popular, we could picked up a $250 chassis and still competitive, we didnt need a 2WD class.
with a price tag from Losi's type-R in mind I do think $200-$299 is doable, 4 pc less aluminium CNC bulkhead, few less Ball bearings, diffs, oneway or spool kit, belt. I think that can drop the price by far.
2. Marginally less at best.
3. There's no guarantee that a 2wd chassis would be built any more rugged than a current 4wd. Sure there would be less drive trane to break but look at what normally breaks in a race, suspension arms, knuckles, etc. The same stuff would be breaking in a 2wd car.
in offroad race 4WD cars breaks lot easier that s been proven many time.
4. Yes they would be less sensitive and easier to set up than smaller scale. But more than current 4wd cars.
with all these current advanced know hows of suspension design and tuning ability I think we can handle it
5. There could be more room...it all depends how the chassis would evolve. It is likely chassis would get more narrow and lose all that space to save on weight.
yes that could happen,but still more room than any 4WD chassis.
6. Limiting traction never works. All it does is make cars less controllable and cause more accidents. Especially with newer drivers who haven't learned fine control yet. This would frustrate them quicker and get them to leave quicker, unless traction was super high.
I think problem of current TCs(electric and Gas) is caused by having too much traction, RCGT & VTA class do limiting the traction for the reason.
7. Some people want to race their dream cars. Getting rid of the rules would end up with even more performance oriented bodies and less nice looking ones, that is once the class caught on enough for manufacturers to make class specific bodies.
I rather drive a Mcralen any time over a Spd6
The DS wasn't the only 2wd suspension car made, Yokomo had a FWD, and Traxxas and Kyosho had RWD full suspension cars. If it was going to catch on it would have already.
yes there was but back then we didnt have this much problem yet, the class was so popular, we could picked up a $250 chassis and still competitive, we didnt need a 2WD class.
Open wheel bodies never got popular cause hard to race side by side with that.
It's good to think outside the box but 2wd touring car won't work. You lose a lot of traction when you lose 2 drive wheels. Carpet won't be so bad, but a low traction outdoor track (like Brownie's) would be a handful and people would get fustrated easily.
Back in the day the nitro cars had 2 wheel drive classes for 1/10 and 1/8. The idea was that with 2wd it was far more about driving and not about spending a fortune on tires. Mostly it was the old timers who remember the pan cars. As motors became more powerful the 2wd cars were just too difficult to drive, and the classes disappeared quickly.
The answer to the problems of on road electric racing are not with the cars, the motors, the batteries, or the speed controls. It's with the racers.
Back in the day the nitro cars had 2 wheel drive classes for 1/10 and 1/8. The idea was that with 2wd it was far more about driving and not about spending a fortune on tires. Mostly it was the old timers who remember the pan cars. As motors became more powerful the 2wd cars were just too difficult to drive, and the classes disappeared quickly.
The answer to the problems of on road electric racing are not with the cars, the motors, the batteries, or the speed controls. It's with the racers.
World GT is still the closest thing to cheap racing that we have had in years. The cars are tough and simple. The tires can last months on carpet and still have good grip. It's nearly impossible to overheat a 13.5 motor with a single cell lipo. If the class wasn't so thin at our track, I'd build a new one myself.
12-05-2009, 05:39 PM
#23
12-05-2009, 05:40 PM
#24
Speed World Raceway in Roseville California has spec slash class races (At a on road track with some jumps) and they have 60 or more entries on race nights from what I understand. If people want diversity than I don't understand how a class can get that big. Slash is different, but the rough principal needs to brought into a on road class.
12-05-2009, 05:43 PM
#25
Speed World Raceway in Roseville California has spec slash class races (At a on road track with some jumps) and they have 60 or more entries on race nights from what I understand. If people want diversity than I don't understand how a class can get that big. Slash is different, but the rough principal needs to brought into a on road class.
my bad, I just watched youtube of it and it does look good! Thanks!
Last edited by SweepRacingUSA; 12-05-2009 at 11:31 PM.
12-05-2009, 06:01 PM
#26
here is my debates
Open wheel bodies never got popular cause hard to race side by side with that.
sure thats why we don't see too many 4WD class at off road track, we don't have to spend time wrenching and mony for 4WD to have same fun in dirt, sure I agree any hobby is expensive.
back in the days we didnt have tires like today and suspension and chassis design wasn't this good. also some of those old skool 2WD was live axle, with this state of art independent suspension designs of today I think we can drive a 2WD car fine.
agree but I dont think many want to drive a world GT in parking lot or unprepped track and also that foam tires scared lots of ppl away.
Open wheel bodies never got popular cause hard to race side by side with that.
sure thats why we don't see too many 4WD class at off road track, we don't have to spend time wrenching and mony for 4WD to have same fun in dirt, sure I agree any hobby is expensive.
back in the days we didnt have tires like today and suspension and chassis design wasn't this good. also some of those old skool 2WD was live axle, with this state of art independent suspension designs of today I think we can drive a 2WD car fine.
agree but I dont think many want to drive a world GT in parking lot or unprepped track and also that foam tires scared lots of ppl away.
1. Yes it's doable but look at manufacturer's history...in that price range they are typically plastic. Nothing wrong with that, I enjoy a good plastic Tamiya car. But it isn't likely you'll see a manufacturer come out with a high end carbon fiber car for that little. 1/12th scale pan cars are more expensive than that and their suspension parts are more simple than an independent suspension car.
3. Yes 4wd is more fragile then 2wd in off-road...on-road is a completely different animal. Cars are wider and suspension arms longer in off-road which make them in general more fragile. Add to that a very narrow front bulk head with a diff in it and it is even more fragile. On-road is quite different in construction and design.
4. Possibly but it still isn't going to be as easy to drive as 4wd.
5. Not so...without needing additional chassis for the extra drive pieces it is likely the chassis will be no wider than the battery with small wing like areas to mount electronics. Why waste the weight and money on materials for extra chassis.
6. Look at what happened in F1. When FIA decided to slow the cars down they reduced the surface area of the tires but did not reduce power. The first season they did that had more crashes than I have seen in all the years I've been watching F1. Not only did it reduce traction but it also reduced drag making the cars go into the corner faster, not slower. With the reduced traction and the increased cornering speed the cars were very dangerous. It wasn't until they started limiting horse power that the cars started to be safe again.
Also I look at what has happened in the races I have been director over for 15+ years. When the track was unprepped and traction low there was always more carnage and people had less fun. When I started prepping the track there was less broken cars and more smiles on peoples faces.
Personally I find it more enjoyable when my car is planted and I don't have to fight the car, the track, and the other drivers all at once.
7. Thats fine and there are classes where you can do that. But realize most competitve racers are going to use whatever body that gives them the most advantage, not what they think looks cool.
The F103 GT was not an open wheeled car. It was a TC based on the F103 chassis.
WGT runs fine in a parking lot so long as you do some prep work to the track. We've raced them at my parking lot races even with the spec tires and had plenty of grip. The problem with racing pan cars out doors is generally racers and race directors often are not willing to put in the time it takes to make the surface adequate for pan cars.
12-05-2009, 06:02 PM
#27
Tech Master
Lol just try drive a M04 with something faster than a black can. Then you will see why 2wd touring never caught on. It's harder to drive than a 1/12th scale. Sure, the car is not the best a chassis can be, but the characteristics will be the same. Better yet, try drive your current 4wd as a RWD and then report back.
12-05-2009, 09:15 PM
#28
Tech Regular
iTrader: (2)
VTA or the 1s Lipo 4wd class whatever its called.
For the most part you can use old technology and be competitive in VTA, going back to about a TC3 era type chassis. The one thing that limits it right now is the speedcontrol wars and even then if you follow Rob's suggestions, that is solved, and you have slower door to door racing.
When the new people skill up if you have an Expert type VTA where you can ramp up the speedos... good, if not, hopefully you have a 17.5 or a 13.5 class.
For the most part you can use old technology and be competitive in VTA, going back to about a TC3 era type chassis. The one thing that limits it right now is the speedcontrol wars and even then if you follow Rob's suggestions, that is solved, and you have slower door to door racing.
When the new people skill up if you have an Expert type VTA where you can ramp up the speedos... good, if not, hopefully you have a 17.5 or a 13.5 class.
12-05-2009, 09:28 PM
#29
We have had close to 100 people on some night. From kids, adult novice, sportsman, and experts. Friday night races. Its huge. Cant change anything but a different SC body, alu shock caps, and a few little things. But nothing major.
12-05-2009, 09:39 PM
#30
1. Yes it's doable but look at manufacturer's history...in that price range they are typically plastic. Nothing wrong with that, I enjoy a good plastic Tamiya car. But it isn't likely you'll see a manufacturer come out with a high end carbon fiber car for that little. 1/12th scale pan cars are more expensive than that and their suspension parts are more simple than an independent suspension car.
I think more of supply and demand things for the 1/12th price.
3. Yes 4wd is more fragile then 2wd in off-road...on-road is a completely different animal. Cars are wider and suspension arms longer in off-road which make them in general more fragile. Add to that a very narrow front bulk head with a diff in it and it is even more fragile. On-road is quite different in construction and design.
off road is more fragile?
I only had skid bar on my 4WD and RC10s for many years and didn't brake not as much as I broke in last 1 year in TC. TC you just peeled some one and you could be done for the day.
4. Possibly but it still isn't going to be as easy to drive as 4wd.
don't need to, current 4WD TC is too ez to drive (which makes so hard to win) and thats what made this class once so popular but now in trouble.
5. Not so...without needing additional chassis for the extra drive pieces it is likely the chassis will be no wider than the battery with small wing like areas to mount electronics. Why waste the weight and money on materials for extra chassis.
no point to talk about. IMO
6. Look at what happened in F1. When FIA decided to slow the cars down they reduced the surface area of the tires but did not reduce power. The first season they did that had more crashes than I have seen in all the years I've been watching F1. Not only did it reduce traction but it also reduced drag making the cars go into the corner faster, not slower. With the reduced traction and the increased cornering speed the cars were very dangerous. It wasn't until they started limiting horse power that the cars started to be safe again.
Also I look at what has happened in the races I have been director over for 15+ years. When the track was unprepped and traction low there was always more carnage and people had less fun. When I started prepping the track there was less broken cars and more smiles on peoples faces.
Personally I find it more enjoyable when my car is planted and I don't have to fight the car, the track, and the other drivers all at once.
unlike F1 we have marshals (reset switch in video games?
) we can get adopt to available traction after few practice run and all this state of the art suspensions can handle spec moto fine, I think a car can be very planted with 2WD.
7. Thats fine and there are classes where you can do that. But realize most competitive racers are going to use whatever body that gives them the most advantage, not what they think looks cool.
yes I would like to competitive and look good same time or more choices I should say?
The F103 GT was not an open wheeled car. It was a TC based on the F103 chassis.
yeah I saw that after somebody pointed out, looking good on tamiya track (which is not the track with most traction)
WGT runs fine in a parking lot so long as you do some prep work to the track. We've raced them at my parking lot races even with the spec tires and had plenty of grip. The problem with racing pan cars out doors is generally racers and race directors often are not willing to put in the time it takes to make the surface adequate for pan cars.
yes and I think independent suspension cars can handle better with a 2WD tranny
I think more of supply and demand things for the 1/12th price.
3. Yes 4wd is more fragile then 2wd in off-road...on-road is a completely different animal. Cars are wider and suspension arms longer in off-road which make them in general more fragile. Add to that a very narrow front bulk head with a diff in it and it is even more fragile. On-road is quite different in construction and design.
off road is more fragile?
I only had skid bar on my 4WD and RC10s for many years and didn't brake not as much as I broke in last 1 year in TC. TC you just peeled some one and you could be done for the day.4. Possibly but it still isn't going to be as easy to drive as 4wd.
don't need to, current 4WD TC is too ez to drive (which makes so hard to win) and thats what made this class once so popular but now in trouble.
5. Not so...without needing additional chassis for the extra drive pieces it is likely the chassis will be no wider than the battery with small wing like areas to mount electronics. Why waste the weight and money on materials for extra chassis.
no point to talk about. IMO
6. Look at what happened in F1. When FIA decided to slow the cars down they reduced the surface area of the tires but did not reduce power. The first season they did that had more crashes than I have seen in all the years I've been watching F1. Not only did it reduce traction but it also reduced drag making the cars go into the corner faster, not slower. With the reduced traction and the increased cornering speed the cars were very dangerous. It wasn't until they started limiting horse power that the cars started to be safe again.
Also I look at what has happened in the races I have been director over for 15+ years. When the track was unprepped and traction low there was always more carnage and people had less fun. When I started prepping the track there was less broken cars and more smiles on peoples faces.
Personally I find it more enjoyable when my car is planted and I don't have to fight the car, the track, and the other drivers all at once.
unlike F1 we have marshals (reset switch in video games?
) we can get adopt to available traction after few practice run and all this state of the art suspensions can handle spec moto fine, I think a car can be very planted with 2WD.7. Thats fine and there are classes where you can do that. But realize most competitive racers are going to use whatever body that gives them the most advantage, not what they think looks cool.
yes I would like to competitive and look good same time or more choices I should say?
The F103 GT was not an open wheeled car. It was a TC based on the F103 chassis.
yeah I saw that after somebody pointed out, looking good on tamiya track (which is not the track with most traction)
WGT runs fine in a parking lot so long as you do some prep work to the track. We've raced them at my parking lot races even with the spec tires and had plenty of grip. The problem with racing pan cars out doors is generally racers and race directors often are not willing to put in the time it takes to make the surface adequate for pan cars.
yes and I think independent suspension cars can handle better with a 2WD tranny
Lol just try drive a M04 with something faster than a black can. Then you will see why 2wd touring never caught on. It's harder to drive than a 1/12th scale. Sure, the car is not the best a chassis can be, but the characteristics will be the same. Better yet, try drive your current 4wd as a RWD and then report back.
my report about 2WD touring: my novice buddy ask me to help him to see whats wrong with his 17.5 car at Jackson raceway and I drove around the track okay just felt weired, as you guessed it car only had rear wheel power, this happened this summer and that s where this idea started! then lately after seeing low turn out at the indoor championship or seeing 500-700$ price tags for a TC kits I decide to talk about this.
try a well set up TC in 2wd on prepped track, you can drive around no problem.
all these top end TCs are so well designed it dont failed to amaze me every time I go to race, that s why I like to see this class continue around me in one way or other.
Last edited by SweepRacingUSA; 12-05-2009 at 09:52 PM.