The future of stock class?
03-09-2004, 04:22 AM
#61
I'm kinda surprised that 27t stock has done so well.. You can buy 23t stockers from japan that are also a spec motor, and are better in every way compared to a 27t (cheaper, more efficent, and recently.. more rpm). Most 23t motors will outperform a 19t.
But I belive the future is brushless. You only have to look at the ppl who buy em to know that every new person who buys a brushless is NEVER going backwards. Then when you factor in rpm limiting without low power (like 27t's) then why would the future be anything else?
But I belive the future is brushless. You only have to look at the ppl who buy em to know that every new person who buys a brushless is NEVER going backwards. Then when you factor in rpm limiting without low power (like 27t's) then why would the future be anything else?
03-09-2004, 05:41 AM
#62
Tech Addict
iTrader: (11)
what if 27 turn stock was made 7min class,wouldnt that even out the field and stop drivers gearing up with their good batts and also make overheating something to consider?
in japan their running 8 min mod class and most are running 12 turns to make time.
in japan their running 8 min mod class and most are running 12 turns to make time.
03-09-2004, 06:43 AM
#63
Tech Adept
My opinion: Stock is cheaper, at least for onroad carpet.
1/12th mod: Tires last maybe 6 runs. Bodies get thrashed faster. Batteries are CRITICAL. And 3300's dont' hold runtime well. Voltage they hold, but they lose runtime FAST. That means new packs all the time to make time. But, the other side is the motors last.
In stock tires last 20 runs at least, bodies don't get thrashed as fast, and good batteries last fine. Runtime isn't such an issue. And with decent 3300's, you'll be competitive. (1/12th is all about driving anyway)
Sedan mod: Tires, again, pinks and pink oranges go FAST. Motors go FAST, ana again, batteries are key.
In stock, tires last me a few weeks (plaid/purp), a good stock motor will last me a month of racing (I skim every 2 runs, but it only takes like .001 off it). Good batteries are important, but not as much as in mod. Between my practice packs which are like 1.14 and my race packs which are 1.17, it's at best, .1 sec per lap. If that. Tap a board and you just lost your edge.
Again, I think the battery debate is silly. In mod you need runtime. In stock you need voltage. All the decent 3300's out there have the voltage to be competitive. But like I said, runtime goes away. Just go to a big race and you'll see factory drivers building new packs all the time. And these are the mod guys. That's not for voltage, it's for runtime.
1/12th mod: Tires last maybe 6 runs. Bodies get thrashed faster. Batteries are CRITICAL. And 3300's dont' hold runtime well. Voltage they hold, but they lose runtime FAST. That means new packs all the time to make time. But, the other side is the motors last.
In stock tires last 20 runs at least, bodies don't get thrashed as fast, and good batteries last fine. Runtime isn't such an issue. And with decent 3300's, you'll be competitive. (1/12th is all about driving anyway)
Sedan mod: Tires, again, pinks and pink oranges go FAST. Motors go FAST, ana again, batteries are key.
In stock, tires last me a few weeks (plaid/purp), a good stock motor will last me a month of racing (I skim every 2 runs, but it only takes like .001 off it). Good batteries are important, but not as much as in mod. Between my practice packs which are like 1.14 and my race packs which are 1.17, it's at best, .1 sec per lap. If that. Tap a board and you just lost your edge.
Again, I think the battery debate is silly. In mod you need runtime. In stock you need voltage. All the decent 3300's out there have the voltage to be competitive. But like I said, runtime goes away. Just go to a big race and you'll see factory drivers building new packs all the time. And these are the mod guys. That's not for voltage, it's for runtime.
03-09-2004, 07:31 AM
#64
i'm about an 80% newbie to the sport, i bought a car + everything to go with it back in november or so, and got a stock motor to go in it.
the stock motor was definatly faster to the old 540 motors from back in the early 90s, but it didnt seem much faster.... untill i got proper batteries for it.
stock, as a class, i think is fantastic, although there doesnt seem to be that much of a gap in performance from our 540 pro class to stock to make it worth the extra class definition (we have 540 novice, 540 pro, stock, and mod),
personally i'd love to see a power-restricted brushless class, the prospect of having motors that dont actually require maintenance almost arouses me
i was used to the old 540 style motors, sealed up, and they just keep on running... no maintenance, and i cant beleive how some people actually cut their comms more than once a race meet, i've had this motor for about 5 months now and i've only had it cut once, i replaces the brushes on it today and i really didnt notice too much of a difference in performance from the old brushes to the new brushes, and at $10 a set, i think replacing brushes after every single race is totally rediculous. as one of the other guys mentioned in this thread, guys who are doing this to get the extra 0.1% out of their motors need to step back and take a look, and see if they're doing it because they want to, or because they think they have to.
the stock motor was definatly faster to the old 540 motors from back in the early 90s, but it didnt seem much faster.... untill i got proper batteries for it.
stock, as a class, i think is fantastic, although there doesnt seem to be that much of a gap in performance from our 540 pro class to stock to make it worth the extra class definition (we have 540 novice, 540 pro, stock, and mod),
personally i'd love to see a power-restricted brushless class, the prospect of having motors that dont actually require maintenance almost arouses me
i was used to the old 540 style motors, sealed up, and they just keep on running... no maintenance, and i cant beleive how some people actually cut their comms more than once a race meet, i've had this motor for about 5 months now and i've only had it cut once, i replaces the brushes on it today and i really didnt notice too much of a difference in performance from the old brushes to the new brushes, and at $10 a set, i think replacing brushes after every single race is totally rediculous. as one of the other guys mentioned in this thread, guys who are doing this to get the extra 0.1% out of their motors need to step back and take a look, and see if they're doing it because they want to, or because they think they have to.
03-09-2004, 09:15 AM
#65
Tech Elite
Originally posted by ark
what if 27 turn stock was made 7min class,wouldnt that even out the field and stop drivers gearing up with their good batts and also make overheating something to consider?
what if 27 turn stock was made 7min class,wouldnt that even out the field and stop drivers gearing up with their good batts and also make overheating something to consider?
I'm going to suggest it at our local track and see how it flys.
03-09-2004, 10:59 AM
#66
I still don't get it !!
It seems to me that the effort in stock should concentrate on being as fast as possible but also to be a reasonable investment FOR EVERY RACER. I realise that everyone has the right to go as fast as they want but isn't more important to have a class that is accessible to a greater number of people than just those with the money to spend on every go fast gismo on the market ???? Most new drivers are jumping into stock thinking it's the bottom of the performance rung and that they will be competitive .....and then the harsh reality hits them....I need the newest and most expensive this and that and I need all those specialised tools to do this and that !!! Jeeez.......No wonder allot of people don't get involved or don't stay involved.
I realise that stock for a more advanced (expert stock class) driver is a much different animal and for those guys....spend all you want !!! But for newer drivers, why aren't we "spec-ing" the novice level stock races??? Whats the big deal ??? 3300's are commonplace and reasonably priced....but what if they were limited to specific numbers ( a small range) ?? Motor tuning could be kept to a minimum ie: no comm cutting for the duration of the quals and the main , may only replace brushes before the main, no disassembly of motor for duration of quals and main.
I don't think their should be much of an issue with the cars themselves other than possibly limiting "structural" changes ( like dremeling larger battery slots). Most all of today's cars are pretty advanced. Learning "normal" chassis tuning is not only necessary but can be fun.
Again, these ideas are directed more at novice and sportsman level racers. Hardcore racers should be allowed to spend as much as they want and tweak to their hearts content. When you join that atmosphere you're assuming the pressures of competing at that level so there shouldn't be any whining because a fellow expert stock class driver has better stuff or tunes better than you do.
Lets make novice and sportsman stock accessible and we should see more people staying in the hobby. The learning curve will be allot slower and allot cheaper.
It seems to me that the effort in stock should concentrate on being as fast as possible but also to be a reasonable investment FOR EVERY RACER. I realise that everyone has the right to go as fast as they want but isn't more important to have a class that is accessible to a greater number of people than just those with the money to spend on every go fast gismo on the market ???? Most new drivers are jumping into stock thinking it's the bottom of the performance rung and that they will be competitive .....and then the harsh reality hits them....I need the newest and most expensive this and that and I need all those specialised tools to do this and that !!! Jeeez.......No wonder allot of people don't get involved or don't stay involved.
I realise that stock for a more advanced (expert stock class) driver is a much different animal and for those guys....spend all you want !!! But for newer drivers, why aren't we "spec-ing" the novice level stock races??? Whats the big deal ??? 3300's are commonplace and reasonably priced....but what if they were limited to specific numbers ( a small range) ?? Motor tuning could be kept to a minimum ie: no comm cutting for the duration of the quals and the main , may only replace brushes before the main, no disassembly of motor for duration of quals and main.
I don't think their should be much of an issue with the cars themselves other than possibly limiting "structural" changes ( like dremeling larger battery slots). Most all of today's cars are pretty advanced. Learning "normal" chassis tuning is not only necessary but can be fun.
Again, these ideas are directed more at novice and sportsman level racers. Hardcore racers should be allowed to spend as much as they want and tweak to their hearts content. When you join that atmosphere you're assuming the pressures of competing at that level so there shouldn't be any whining because a fellow expert stock class driver has better stuff or tunes better than you do.
Lets make novice and sportsman stock accessible and we should see more people staying in the hobby. The learning curve will be allot slower and allot cheaper.
03-09-2004, 11:46 AM
#67
Dino, your points are not off ( IMHO ) but ultimately what are you after ? For a sanctioning body ( ROAR ) to put limits on stock, to try and bring more people in the hobby, or to make it easier ?
I think the sanctioning body has a problem with something like that, as it is a double edged sword. My opinion, the local club is there to try and help the new guys out,and the sanctioning body is there to bring them along to a new level as well as help the club out. < which I do not think ROAR has done to an acceptable level.
Really , the club should try and introduce "Local classes" to help increase thier following, much the same way SCCA has regional classes, but those classes are not always "National Classes"
If we want people to go slower, ( good for beginners ) then we introduce a local mabuchi class. If it is popular then it will spread, much like the 19t class has of late. What I would lkie to see is one common stock reg across the planet, Be it 27t or 23t, whichever... actually lets say 30t
Maybe I am Off base here, but just my .02
I think the sanctioning body has a problem with something like that, as it is a double edged sword. My opinion, the local club is there to try and help the new guys out,and the sanctioning body is there to bring them along to a new level as well as help the club out. < which I do not think ROAR has done to an acceptable level.
Really , the club should try and introduce "Local classes" to help increase thier following, much the same way SCCA has regional classes, but those classes are not always "National Classes"
If we want people to go slower, ( good for beginners ) then we introduce a local mabuchi class. If it is popular then it will spread, much like the 19t class has of late. What I would lkie to see is one common stock reg across the planet, Be it 27t or 23t, whichever... actually lets say 30t
Maybe I am Off base here, but just my .02
03-09-2004, 11:51 AM
#68
I think its human nature with a lot of us racers. Let's face it, $40 for a stock motor is cheap, and you can get the comm cut at most tracks and LHS for a few bucks. The problem is that us racers always want the little edge we think is going to help, so tire warmers, titanium everything, etc. adds up.
Evo, I think you're right but i think you are going against human nature.
Let's think about the "got to have everything" bit. We pay an inordinate amount to get the most minute benefit. Now think of this; when was the last time we all had a flawless race? No crashes, perfect line through the track every lap without hitting any dots, etc. It just doeesn't happen, but we are in denial and we think it is because of the car set up or our batteries weren't peaked right, or the brushes should have had more silver content... All this would only matter if we all drove perfect races and then it came down to these minute improvements. In reality, a crash will set you back a good 5 seconds give or take how fast your turn marshall is. This negates the $1000 spent on improvements.
The real culprit is Human Nature's grip on reality. We should spend less time buying and more time practising. I'm sure a pro driver with a bone stock set up would smoke us all.
Evo, I think you're right but i think you are going against human nature.
Let's think about the "got to have everything" bit. We pay an inordinate amount to get the most minute benefit. Now think of this; when was the last time we all had a flawless race? No crashes, perfect line through the track every lap without hitting any dots, etc. It just doeesn't happen, but we are in denial and we think it is because of the car set up or our batteries weren't peaked right, or the brushes should have had more silver content... All this would only matter if we all drove perfect races and then it came down to these minute improvements. In reality, a crash will set you back a good 5 seconds give or take how fast your turn marshall is. This negates the $1000 spent on improvements.
The real culprit is Human Nature's grip on reality. We should spend less time buying and more time practising. I'm sure a pro driver with a bone stock set up would smoke us all.
03-09-2004, 12:55 PM
#69
I realise what you're saying but.....keep in mind that most of the drivers who will answer this post are NOT novice or sportsman drivers. You must keep in mind the group I think is very important and vital to this hobby's growth. Technology is moving faster than most people can make the money to pay for it !!!
Tim, I see no reason a sanctioning body would have a problem with this...unless the double edged sword you mentioned happens to put a hole in somebody's deep pockets !!! In plain english, The only people that would suffer would be the companies that supply all those little goodies that newer drivers won't need to buy because of "spec" restrictions. When I'm sure that my National Governing body places more emphasis on the needs and wants of business rather than the members.....It'll be time to cancel my membership and or find another organization !!!
This is not human nature ...this is learned behavior. New people watch and talk and listen to existing drivers.....thats how they develop the initial interest. Their concept of whats needed or expected is nothing more than a byproduct of what they see and have been told. Look at it this way.....the rc TOY cars from Radio Shack and Toys r Us outsell the stuff we use in huge numbers. Do you think all those users are discontent with their purchase ??? Some maybe but for the most part....thats all they know !!! Their idea of speed is relative. A new driver won't feel the need to buy Titanium bits, tire warmers or a zapper if they're taught that they can do without AND have an avenue to race and not feel lossed without that kind of stuff !!!!
Tim, those of us who know about TCS racing can fully appreciate 540 can motor racing. I agree with you that this can be an excellent way to enter the sport BUT...I believe the facts work against us. I don't think there are that many clubs/tracks/shops that even offer a 540 class. Even if they do, Whats the next step up ??? STOCK !! We're not losing people at the 540 class level...we're losing them when they get to stock and they get frustrated with the lack of knowledge needed to be competitive or they realise the cost to be competitive. The fact is...NEWER DRIVERS DO NOT HAVE AN AVENUE TO PROCEED INTO STOCK CLASS AND CONCENTRATE ON LEARNING, HAVING FUN AND MAKING THE EVENTUAL DECISION TO GET MORE SERIOUS ABOUT RC. Thats why I believe we should "spec" stock class at the novice level. And as for regional, state or national level comps.....why not allow novice and sportsman "spec" class racing?? I know the Snowbirds had a novice class !! The only difference would be a new set of regulations and potentially a few more drivers who would get involved.
Tim, I see no reason a sanctioning body would have a problem with this...unless the double edged sword you mentioned happens to put a hole in somebody's deep pockets !!! In plain english, The only people that would suffer would be the companies that supply all those little goodies that newer drivers won't need to buy because of "spec" restrictions. When I'm sure that my National Governing body places more emphasis on the needs and wants of business rather than the members.....It'll be time to cancel my membership and or find another organization !!!
This is not human nature ...this is learned behavior. New people watch and talk and listen to existing drivers.....thats how they develop the initial interest. Their concept of whats needed or expected is nothing more than a byproduct of what they see and have been told. Look at it this way.....the rc TOY cars from Radio Shack and Toys r Us outsell the stuff we use in huge numbers. Do you think all those users are discontent with their purchase ??? Some maybe but for the most part....thats all they know !!! Their idea of speed is relative. A new driver won't feel the need to buy Titanium bits, tire warmers or a zapper if they're taught that they can do without AND have an avenue to race and not feel lossed without that kind of stuff !!!!
Tim, those of us who know about TCS racing can fully appreciate 540 can motor racing. I agree with you that this can be an excellent way to enter the sport BUT...I believe the facts work against us. I don't think there are that many clubs/tracks/shops that even offer a 540 class. Even if they do, Whats the next step up ??? STOCK !! We're not losing people at the 540 class level...we're losing them when they get to stock and they get frustrated with the lack of knowledge needed to be competitive or they realise the cost to be competitive. The fact is...NEWER DRIVERS DO NOT HAVE AN AVENUE TO PROCEED INTO STOCK CLASS AND CONCENTRATE ON LEARNING, HAVING FUN AND MAKING THE EVENTUAL DECISION TO GET MORE SERIOUS ABOUT RC. Thats why I believe we should "spec" stock class at the novice level. And as for regional, state or national level comps.....why not allow novice and sportsman "spec" class racing?? I know the Snowbirds had a novice class !! The only difference would be a new set of regulations and potentially a few more drivers who would get involved.
03-09-2004, 01:02 PM
#70
I think brushless is the technology for new drivers. Almost no maintenance, less wear, ease of use. If it caught on, I think the initial costs would come down and who knows, RTRs might come specd with them. A Novak 4300 set at stock setting would be perfect. Even good racers would be on the same playing field and with those motors, there's not much tweaking that can be done. No lath, no brushes, no breaking in, no timing, etc.
03-09-2004, 01:11 PM
#71
I also like the future of Brushless....but in the meantime .... we still have to deal with these pesky brushed motors
03-09-2004, 01:15 PM
#72
Originally posted by Evoracer
I realise what you're saying but.....keep in mind that most of the drivers who will answer this post are NOT novice or sportsman drivers. You must keep in mind the group I think is very important and vital to this hobby's growth. Technology is moving faster than most people can make the money to pay for it !!!
Tim, I see no reason a sanctioning body would have a problem with this...unless the double edged sword you mentioned happens to put a hole in somebody's deep pockets !!! In plain english, The only people that would suffer would be the companies that supply all those little goodies that newer drivers won't need to buy because of "spec" restrictions. When I'm sure that my National Governing body places more emphasis on the needs and wants of business rather than the members.....It'll be time to cancel my membership and or find another organization !!!
This is not human nature ...this is learned behavior. New people watch and talk and listen to existing drivers.....thats how they develop the initial interest. Their concept of whats needed or expected is nothing more than a byproduct of what they see and have been told. Look at it this way.....the rc TOY cars from Radio Shack and Toys r Us outsell the stuff we use in huge numbers. Do you think all those users are discontent with their purchase ??? Some maybe but for the most part....thats all they know !!! Their idea of speed is relative. A new driver won't feel the need to buy Titanium bits, tire warmers or a zapper if they're taught that they can do without AND have an avenue to race and not feel lossed without that kind of stuff !!!!
Tim, those of us who know about TCS racing can fully appreciate 540 can motor racing. I agree with you that this can be an excellent way to enter the sport BUT...I believe the facts work against us. I don't think there are that many clubs/tracks/shops that even offer a 540 class. Even if they do, Whats the next step up ??? STOCK !! We're not losing people at the 540 class level...we're losing them when they get to stock and they get frustrated with the lack of knowledge needed to be competitive or they realise the cost to be competitive. The fact is...NEWER DRIVERS DO NOT HAVE AN AVENUE TO PROCEED INTO STOCK CLASS AND CONCENTRATE ON LEARNING, HAVING FUN AND MAKING THE EVENTUAL DECISION TO GET MORE SERIOUS ABOUT RC. Thats why I believe we should "spec" stock class at the novice level. And as for regional, state or national level comps.....why not allow novice and sportsman "spec" class racing?? I know the Snowbirds had a novice class !! The only difference would be a new set of regulations and potentially a few more drivers who would get involved.
I realise what you're saying but.....keep in mind that most of the drivers who will answer this post are NOT novice or sportsman drivers. You must keep in mind the group I think is very important and vital to this hobby's growth. Technology is moving faster than most people can make the money to pay for it !!!
Tim, I see no reason a sanctioning body would have a problem with this...unless the double edged sword you mentioned happens to put a hole in somebody's deep pockets !!! In plain english, The only people that would suffer would be the companies that supply all those little goodies that newer drivers won't need to buy because of "spec" restrictions. When I'm sure that my National Governing body places more emphasis on the needs and wants of business rather than the members.....It'll be time to cancel my membership and or find another organization !!!
This is not human nature ...this is learned behavior. New people watch and talk and listen to existing drivers.....thats how they develop the initial interest. Their concept of whats needed or expected is nothing more than a byproduct of what they see and have been told. Look at it this way.....the rc TOY cars from Radio Shack and Toys r Us outsell the stuff we use in huge numbers. Do you think all those users are discontent with their purchase ??? Some maybe but for the most part....thats all they know !!! Their idea of speed is relative. A new driver won't feel the need to buy Titanium bits, tire warmers or a zapper if they're taught that they can do without AND have an avenue to race and not feel lossed without that kind of stuff !!!!
Tim, those of us who know about TCS racing can fully appreciate 540 can motor racing. I agree with you that this can be an excellent way to enter the sport BUT...I believe the facts work against us. I don't think there are that many clubs/tracks/shops that even offer a 540 class. Even if they do, Whats the next step up ??? STOCK !! We're not losing people at the 540 class level...we're losing them when they get to stock and they get frustrated with the lack of knowledge needed to be competitive or they realise the cost to be competitive. The fact is...NEWER DRIVERS DO NOT HAVE AN AVENUE TO PROCEED INTO STOCK CLASS AND CONCENTRATE ON LEARNING, HAVING FUN AND MAKING THE EVENTUAL DECISION TO GET MORE SERIOUS ABOUT RC. Thats why I believe we should "spec" stock class at the novice level. And as for regional, state or national level comps.....why not allow novice and sportsman "spec" class racing?? I know the Snowbirds had a novice class !! The only difference would be a new set of regulations and potentially a few more drivers who would get involved.
03-09-2004, 01:27 PM
#73
Ooops, made a mistake....The Snowbirds didn't have a novice stock class. Although there's no reason any competition shouldn't include novice's.....I agree that the promoters have the right to offer the classes they wish.
WEIDJD, The "spec" idea would apply to any car. It only seeks to make novice and sportsman racing a bit more accessible for more people by lowering the costs and to promote a more level playing field. The biggest thing here is to hault the number of people who get out of the hobby way to fast, promote a better education process for newer drivers and make stock level racing a natural progression of skills AND equipment. I think by limiting Battery type and Motor tuning....we can eliminate much of the additional expense that most people feel they must meet just to be competitive....even at the Novice level.
WEIDJD, The "spec" idea would apply to any car. It only seeks to make novice and sportsman racing a bit more accessible for more people by lowering the costs and to promote a more level playing field. The biggest thing here is to hault the number of people who get out of the hobby way to fast, promote a better education process for newer drivers and make stock level racing a natural progression of skills AND equipment. I think by limiting Battery type and Motor tuning....we can eliminate much of the additional expense that most people feel they must meet just to be competitive....even at the Novice level.
03-09-2004, 02:54 PM
#74
Tech Regular
iTrader: (3)
I don't see brushless increasing in popularity for an 'entry' level class. At current prices, a brushless setup is about $250, and a brushed equivilent is less than $100. The investment for a brushless system will scare off all but the hardcore racers.
A mabuchi 540 class is the way to go. If the shop was serious, they could have a stash of 'em (what are they, $5 each?), and hand them out to the novice guys. Sure they would get abused, but they would all be about the same eventually. Heck, the winner will be determined by the who beats the boards the least. Might keep people interested.
FWIW, they have a novice class at the local off-road track. There were 6 racers. There was one running at the end of the first heat. This crowd certainly could stand to be slowed a bit.
Mike in Arkansas
A mabuchi 540 class is the way to go. If the shop was serious, they could have a stash of 'em (what are they, $5 each?), and hand them out to the novice guys. Sure they would get abused, but they would all be about the same eventually. Heck, the winner will be determined by the who beats the boards the least. Might keep people interested.
FWIW, they have a novice class at the local off-road track. There were 6 racers. There was one running at the end of the first heat. This crowd certainly could stand to be slowed a bit.
Mike in Arkansas
03-09-2004, 02:58 PM
#75
Evo,
The only problem here is that if we limit the types of equipement these novice/spec drivers are allowed to run- they will have to buy all new stuff when they progress to the regular stock class. No motor is too fast if you dont grab the throttle.......
The only problem here is that if we limit the types of equipement these novice/spec drivers are allowed to run- they will have to buy all new stuff when they progress to the regular stock class. No motor is too fast if you dont grab the throttle.......