The future of stock class?
10-19-2003, 06:41 PM
#46
HeY!!!
i prolly won't get a brushless untill there is more then just 3-4 guys every other week racing prolly like not untill about 10-15 people every week. i've only been in r/c for 1 1/2 yrs now and i've been doing pretty good lately because i started to work on the motors more then just once a day. i'll now work one it for prac., then for the heats, then for the main. since i started to do that i've been gettin better and better results and there is alot of compitition where i race so in order to do good you gotta have a sponsor or spend money. i don't got sponsor yet so i've been spending money to get some podium finishes.
i prolly won't get a brushless untill there is more then just 3-4 guys every other week racing prolly like not untill about 10-15 people every week. i've only been in r/c for 1 1/2 yrs now and i've been doing pretty good lately because i started to work on the motors more then just once a day. i'll now work one it for prac., then for the heats, then for the main. since i started to do that i've been gettin better and better results and there is alot of compitition where i race so in order to do good you gotta have a sponsor or spend money. i don't got sponsor yet so i've been spending money to get some podium finishes.
10-19-2003, 10:42 PM
#47
The future of stock motor racing........foam tires 
03-07-2004, 10:12 AM
#48
I dragged this thread out of mothballs because of my own recent experiences.
I'm getting back into the thick of racing and naturally wanted to get some new motors. I took a hard look at every website and thread that had to do with stock motor choices and maintenance. Then I started looking for availability and thats when it hit me........stock 27t just doesn't seem to be all that popular any more !!!
After thinking about why, It occured to me that most all RTR cars/trucks come with either a can motor or something in the range of 18-20 turns. Maybe that has had an impact.....Hell, no cool factor in driving 27t when I've got a RTR TC3 with a 20t !!
I know there may be other factors but no matter what, the result is the same.
So why do we continue to have racing programs involving 27t motors??? In other countries, they're adopting a simpler and FASTER approach. Produce and market simple, "spec" type motors in the 15-20 t range that are specific to a given class. i.e. touring cars = 18t, F1= 17t, etc. These are not hardcore Mod motors but more like the kind in RTR kits. Simple, brushed, rebuildable motors with limited choices for springs and brushes.
Who does it cater to?? Obviously new drivers, but also other drivers that want a truly less complex and expensive option to what our "stock" class has become.
This would seem like a great way to keep our hobby growing and start standardising ourselves and joining the greater worlwide rc community.
Think of it....you're a novice or sportsman driver...you want to run touring cars...BOOM....any choice of car, 3300's allowed, any esc, and an 18t spec motor. Want to try F1...Boom...same deal except the spec motor is 17t.
The manufacturers would jump on it because now they have more options for sales, they're development cost would be low because they all have to be to "spec". The only choice the driver would make is what company he prefers to buy from and which class he wants to run.
Mod will always be mod for the more experienced drivers but this concept can apply there also by simply limiting the type of motor for use. Isn't that whats happening in a number of competitions anyway?? Limiting to a 10t or 12t(just examples).
The true beginners need choices too but I think they already have them in using 540 can motors. The reality is that no beginner should be driving an Xray Evo2 so for programs that offer true beginner classes, choose a reasonable beginner chassis design or 2 and market the idea !! My personal choice is Tamiya TL01's and Mini's but there are others.
Any thoughts ???
I'm getting back into the thick of racing and naturally wanted to get some new motors. I took a hard look at every website and thread that had to do with stock motor choices and maintenance. Then I started looking for availability and thats when it hit me........stock 27t just doesn't seem to be all that popular any more !!!
After thinking about why, It occured to me that most all RTR cars/trucks come with either a can motor or something in the range of 18-20 turns. Maybe that has had an impact.....Hell, no cool factor in driving 27t when I've got a RTR TC3 with a 20t !!
I know there may be other factors but no matter what, the result is the same.
So why do we continue to have racing programs involving 27t motors??? In other countries, they're adopting a simpler and FASTER approach. Produce and market simple, "spec" type motors in the 15-20 t range that are specific to a given class. i.e. touring cars = 18t, F1= 17t, etc. These are not hardcore Mod motors but more like the kind in RTR kits. Simple, brushed, rebuildable motors with limited choices for springs and brushes.
Who does it cater to?? Obviously new drivers, but also other drivers that want a truly less complex and expensive option to what our "stock" class has become.
This would seem like a great way to keep our hobby growing and start standardising ourselves and joining the greater worlwide rc community.
Think of it....you're a novice or sportsman driver...you want to run touring cars...BOOM....any choice of car, 3300's allowed, any esc, and an 18t spec motor. Want to try F1...Boom...same deal except the spec motor is 17t.
The manufacturers would jump on it because now they have more options for sales, they're development cost would be low because they all have to be to "spec". The only choice the driver would make is what company he prefers to buy from and which class he wants to run.
Mod will always be mod for the more experienced drivers but this concept can apply there also by simply limiting the type of motor for use. Isn't that whats happening in a number of competitions anyway?? Limiting to a 10t or 12t(just examples).
The true beginners need choices too but I think they already have them in using 540 can motors. The reality is that no beginner should be driving an Xray Evo2 so for programs that offer true beginner classes, choose a reasonable beginner chassis design or 2 and market the idea !! My personal choice is Tamiya TL01's and Mini's but there are others.
Any thoughts ???
03-07-2004, 10:40 AM
#49
I think a good race car makes a world of difference to the driving. Shocks with no oil, zero adjustment and serious drag in the dirvetrain really doesn't make the car easy to drive for beginners. I would say chassis choice would have to be open becuase every hobby shop offers different companies. As long as the brush was say a reedy 766 which has very little comm wear and lasts ages, it may work. But you'll still get people that cutt each run and run new brushes. Stock motors will probabley still be faster then the 18t's you speak of. 
The only class that is completely even is the johnson 540 class, extremely close racing and although batteries do make a difference if your not consistant enough it won't help.
Whatever class you run there will always be the battery war.
The only class that is completely even is the johnson 540 class, extremely close racing and although batteries do make a difference if your not consistant enough it won't help.Whatever class you run there will always be the battery war.
03-07-2004, 10:44 AM
#50
First of all most 27 turn stock motors can blow away any RTR 20 turn or nineteen turn. I do beleive there should be more rules to stock, theres just not enough people to suppot a sportsman type class and also these classes tend to die off very quickly. Trinity now has a new spec car called the T-spec where every car has to be the same but the controller. It's a cool thought, but will it go.
Stock should be 27turn ( spec ) , Prostock should be 19turn(open battery, tires, body, brand motor) .
Just my thoughts.
Stock should be 27turn ( spec ) , Prostock should be 19turn(open battery, tires, body, brand motor) .
Just my thoughts.
03-07-2004, 01:21 PM
#51
The popularity of stocks really just depends on where you are, & what kinds of track are near you. In my area, more people run in stock classes than anything else, so it's VERY easy to find a stock motor, & much harder to find mods(though 19 turns have gained a bit in popularity in the last 6 months). Honestly, a number of our tracks here just can't handle anything more than a 19 turn, hotter mods than that will make a car undrivable unless you're a Barry Baker or Chris Tossolini, & most people still get their best lap times with stocks(I can do runs with a stock motor that are wihin 1 lap of the 19 turn class, & turn lap times that are within 2/10's of a second of them, simply because the track I run on suits stocks best, though in this case it has more to do with available traction than the size of it). And in the conditions like I run in, it's a MUCH better idea for inexperienced drivers to use motors that give them a good chance to put the power down & learn how to drive their cars, & for now stocks are the best means of accomplishing that....
03-07-2004, 04:12 PM
#52
Tech Elite
The future of stock class?
Guys;
R/C stock class racing in a way reminds me of the Stock and Super Stock classes of full size drag racing.
They have very strict limitation on motors, weight, etc. It is up to the racers to find the best legal chassis/motor combination and to exploit the GREY areas of the rules for that small advantage over a competitor.
As long as "Stock" means a 27T motor (in the USA), and this is what the manufacturers are offering. There will always be people to race in that class.
Want to go faster without the maintenance of a "Mod", run 19T. No matter what the wind of motor, there will always be people who are looking for that slight edge over their competition.
R/C stock class racing in a way reminds me of the Stock and Super Stock classes of full size drag racing.
They have very strict limitation on motors, weight, etc. It is up to the racers to find the best legal chassis/motor combination and to exploit the GREY areas of the rules for that small advantage over a competitor.
As long as "Stock" means a 27T motor (in the USA), and this is what the manufacturers are offering. There will always be people to race in that class.
Want to go faster without the maintenance of a "Mod", run 19T. No matter what the wind of motor, there will always be people who are looking for that slight edge over their competition.
03-07-2004, 09:17 PM
#53
Stock was a good idea, but it was carried too far by racers who are too much of a perfectionists (I'm to blame too, I have to keep up with the Joneses). I don't think it was meant to be done at a high level of racing, just for beginners and club racers who want to keep costs down. The concept is good, but the reality isn't so. For beginners, I think it still works, but at higher levels it has turned in to something totally different. Like drag racing and Nascar, the cost of tweeking the limits of the same playing field has gotten just as high as open modified. Switch the focus to 19t and it will happen too. For beginnners, it serves another purpose too, to keep the speeds low so they can race without crashing everywhere and the racing competitive. Can you imagine Novice Mod? I've turn marshalled Novice and even with stock they crash all over the place.
03-08-2004, 10:36 AM
#54
yeah, i can see that at my track. Me, and about 6 or seven guys are about within 1 lap, then the next guy down is about 4-5 laps behind the 6 place guy. It's hard for beginners at our track. I was running mod at the beginning of the season, but the speed increase gave me a hard time for a setup. I also broke to many parts. But they where cheap anyway.
At least you don't fall asleep out there.
03-08-2004, 10:42 AM
#56
In offroad, stock crashes are even more common. People are all over the place in Novice. Throw a mod motor in those guy's cars and they'll try to triple jumps, etc. Itt would be nuts. Its a real problem in Nitro too. Novice Nitro is nothing but crashes and broken parts
03-08-2004, 01:45 PM
#57
I don't think stock is any cheaper than mod. Stock motors are not THAT much less expensive. And, for serious stock racers, they need BETTER batteries than in mod (except run time) because the voltage makes such a difference. Also, in stock you got guys running plastic out drives, aluminum, and other lightening hop ups that only cost more money.
I personally like to run stock, but I also run alot of mod. I enjoy the "level playing field".
I personally like to run stock, but I also run alot of mod. I enjoy the "level playing field".
03-08-2004, 02:53 PM
#58
Here in Central Fl., mod touring is basically dead. That includes the Florida State Series as well.
19turn seems to have it's ups and downs and even those numbers here on the local club level are certainly not what they once were. There are occassions when the numbers pick up but generally you don't see it.
As for stock....I just returned this week-end from a club race that was loaded with all the various stock classes. They have a "sportsman stock" for the beginers, and a "stock" class for those not ready to step up to the "expert stock" class. All of these are very competitive for eack type of stock driver.
Brushless sounds good on the surface, but you can never be assured of the fact that these are consistent due to the tolerances. Someone will always be faster. You see, there are those who take racing very seriously and are competitive by nature, so it doesn't matter what type of motor you want to use for a stock class. Let's take the 19turn class.....anyone who believes these motors even the playing field is crazy. Any good 19turn racer is always looking for the highest dyno numbers they can find when they're buying them off the hobby shop shelf. It's the same as when you're looking for your stocks off the shelf. Putting the best brushes in the 19turn is also a big factor, just like stock. You see, there really is no difference. This is RACING and someone will always, out spend, out drive, set-up the chassis better or just plain be luckier on any given week-end and finishing lower than first is gonna happen much more often than not. However learning from the experience, the fun, the excitement and enjoying the racing with your friends should be what keeps you coming back. Not the winning or losing.
I personally see nothing wrong with today's stock class. Motors are even and there are rules to govern it. The fact is, has been and always will be, racing progresses and the equipment does as well. Technology moves forward, speeds pick up and therefore the classes get faster. Breaking up stock classes based on driver skill and entries at the club level will even the playing field more than anything else. If your club doesn't have the numbers to support class break ups and/or they won't run some sort of spec....then... well, racing has never been for the faint of heart or faint of wallet.
This class is far from dying here, in fact it seems to be growing due to the diminshed numbers in the other classes.
19turn seems to have it's ups and downs and even those numbers here on the local club level are certainly not what they once were. There are occassions when the numbers pick up but generally you don't see it.
As for stock....I just returned this week-end from a club race that was loaded with all the various stock classes. They have a "sportsman stock" for the beginers, and a "stock" class for those not ready to step up to the "expert stock" class. All of these are very competitive for eack type of stock driver.
Brushless sounds good on the surface, but you can never be assured of the fact that these are consistent due to the tolerances. Someone will always be faster. You see, there are those who take racing very seriously and are competitive by nature, so it doesn't matter what type of motor you want to use for a stock class. Let's take the 19turn class.....anyone who believes these motors even the playing field is crazy. Any good 19turn racer is always looking for the highest dyno numbers they can find when they're buying them off the hobby shop shelf. It's the same as when you're looking for your stocks off the shelf. Putting the best brushes in the 19turn is also a big factor, just like stock. You see, there really is no difference. This is RACING and someone will always, out spend, out drive, set-up the chassis better or just plain be luckier on any given week-end and finishing lower than first is gonna happen much more often than not. However learning from the experience, the fun, the excitement and enjoying the racing with your friends should be what keeps you coming back. Not the winning or losing.
I personally see nothing wrong with today's stock class. Motors are even and there are rules to govern it. The fact is, has been and always will be, racing progresses and the equipment does as well. Technology moves forward, speeds pick up and therefore the classes get faster. Breaking up stock classes based on driver skill and entries at the club level will even the playing field more than anything else. If your club doesn't have the numbers to support class break ups and/or they won't run some sort of spec....then... well, racing has never been for the faint of heart or faint of wallet.
This class is far from dying here, in fact it seems to be growing due to the diminshed numbers in the other classes.
03-08-2004, 06:30 PM
#59
Tech Adept
When I began racing 14 years ago, you started in stock. This is where you began your racing and learned to drive. As soon as you were capable, you moved up to modified, because stock was just TOO SLOW!!
Back in those days, a 17 turn motor was considered pretty wild! If you were to find an old Losi Junior's Choice 17 turn mod from back then, I bet our current crop of stockers would outperform it by a mile!
Stock has just gotten too fast for most new drivers, at least in on-road. That is one of the many reasons that oval has moved primarily from 6 to 4 cells. Stock is now fast enough that many drivers don't feel the need to move up to mod.
I would like to see us bring the performance of our stock motors down a bunch. They have been 27 turns forever, but I'll bet we are making at least twice the RPM and 50% more torque than they did 10 years ago. Do you remember the first 24 degree motors? Man we thought they were slow!!!
Make stock too slow for the better drivers to have fun with. Then we can all move into 19 turn (Pro Stock) and leave stock for the newer drivers. It's time for the cherry picking to end!!!!!
Back in those days, a 17 turn motor was considered pretty wild! If you were to find an old Losi Junior's Choice 17 turn mod from back then, I bet our current crop of stockers would outperform it by a mile!
Stock has just gotten too fast for most new drivers, at least in on-road. That is one of the many reasons that oval has moved primarily from 6 to 4 cells. Stock is now fast enough that many drivers don't feel the need to move up to mod.
I would like to see us bring the performance of our stock motors down a bunch. They have been 27 turns forever, but I'll bet we are making at least twice the RPM and 50% more torque than they did 10 years ago. Do you remember the first 24 degree motors? Man we thought they were slow!!!
Make stock too slow for the better drivers to have fun with. Then we can all move into 19 turn (Pro Stock) and leave stock for the newer drivers. It's time for the cherry picking to end!!!!!
03-08-2004, 07:15 PM
#60
Yep, back when I started in 1985, that's how it was. I remember those days quite well. Cherry picking can be controlled be the race directors, and frankly cherry picking has been around as long as racing has...and it always will be. On occassion even factory drivers show up in stock.
Trinity pretty seems to set the standard in the motor industry and there's no way the ever "turn back the clock" make stock motors slow again. Nor will Reedy or TOP. Trinity keeps making them faster, cell capacity keeps going up, tires keep getting better, and chassis handle better than ever. It moves forward like a machine and ROAR just seems to try and "hang on" instead of steer it. Besides, it appears the manufacturers have much more inside input into ROAR than ever before and that means it's no longer about the racer.....it's all just a business now.
Probably won't be too long before the Binary's become legal as well.
Trinity pretty seems to set the standard in the motor industry and there's no way the ever "turn back the clock" make stock motors slow again. Nor will Reedy or TOP. Trinity keeps making them faster, cell capacity keeps going up, tires keep getting better, and chassis handle better than ever. It moves forward like a machine and ROAR just seems to try and "hang on" instead of steer it. Besides, it appears the manufacturers have much more inside input into ROAR than ever before and that means it's no longer about the racer.....it's all just a business now.
Probably won't be too long before the Binary's become legal as well.