porting for a picco .28??
07-07-2008, 01:14 PM
#16
Thats awsome that you guys can have a discussion about this type of thing and it be civil. Alot of the time threads like this can turn out to be a pissing match and it does no one any good thats trying to learn or read up on the forums. I guess I just jumped the gun and tried to throw water on a fire that I thought might break out 
Sorry guys. Carry on.
Sorry guys. Carry on.
07-07-2008, 01:24 PM
#17
Flow modifications alone if done right do work and add some power and efficiency to the engines. The big gains are to be had when you get that and the timing profiles of the engine dialed. 
07-07-2008, 02:29 PM
#18
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i think what some people are trying to say here is that you can do a lot of R&D on these motors but when it really comes down to it it all come from just out right doing it. now when i was talking about my guy rifling the crank... he was telling me that if you do this that when the fuel is rotating in the crank that the fuel will stay addimized in the center of the crank and it will have a faster chance of reaching the chamber then if it wasnt rifled. it all just goes back to trying it and seeing for yourself if it works. the guy i have been talking to has been in the military and awhile and has learned alot about helicopter engines and has applied what he knows about them into these motors. with the rifling in there im not losing anything from it.
Granted when you put a ported motor up to a dyno you will get some readings but what happens when you put the complete oposite motor or smaller or bigger motor on it witht he same mods? you will get a completly different number. yes it will be hard to show were your improvement came from but you know what you did gave it some improvement.
just alittle helpful tip that you guys can take or not is look at this web site and read about all his different port jobs he offers.
powerhouseperformance.com
Good luck just somethings that have been pasted to me for me to understand how this stuff works alot better.
Granted when you put a ported motor up to a dyno you will get some readings but what happens when you put the complete oposite motor or smaller or bigger motor on it witht he same mods? you will get a completly different number. yes it will be hard to show were your improvement came from but you know what you did gave it some improvement.
just alittle helpful tip that you guys can take or not is look at this web site and read about all his different port jobs he offers.
powerhouseperformance.com
Good luck just somethings that have been pasted to me for me to understand how this stuff works alot better.
07-07-2008, 09:00 PM
#19
I'll just throw in a quick 2 cents. Everyone has their own opinions on how and in what ways motors should be ported. There are so many ways to do it if you are looking to extract certain charactersitcs. Just about every motor I do is custom tailored to fit the customers needs. Port timing is different, auxillary ports are different shapes and sizes to change velocity, direction and effectiveness. Each person wants their motor to have different performance qualities and I do my very best to give them those qualities. I understand some of you will look at my designs and theories and laugh, joke, quip and whatever else you want to call it but all I can say is don't be afraid of the unknown.
About 3 years ago when I started out as a business I wasn't sure if my ideas would pass or fail in the world of R/C. I was just coming off of a career as an engine designer for a company that designed and hand built custom race engines for factory polaris. We casted, machined and ported our own cylinders. We designed and had Weisco mass produce pistons for snowmobile and personal watercraft engines world wide. We also spent countless hours side by side with Paul Gast from Fast by Gast designing aftermarket big bore carbs called Lectron Megatrons and anyone in the world of superbike racing knows who Paul Gast is. We also designed and built custom performance exhaust systems for snowmobiles, 4 wheelers, dirtbikes and some other interesting projects that had snowmobile engines jammed in them.
I have taken most of what I learned and the R+D that went into these motors and brought it to these scaled down versions. I know the carbs are not the same and there are several other things that these motors do not incorperate but the operation principle is the same. They are still basic 2 cycle operating machines and the same theories and principles still apply. I have also spent countless hours on full size superflow dynos testing anything from a 50cc dirtbike engine to twin 502 ci. whipple supercharged engines making over 900hp each for a 32' offshore powerboat.
There are alot of things a dyno will tell you and there are alot of things it won't. A dyno is a great tool to see what certain changes will do as far as static numbers but it will not dictate how the engine performs in the field. I was thinking about getting a nitrodyne system that is currently the industry standard and it will be a big help as far as raw numbers. I have seen alot of the same results in the little motors as I saw in the bigger motors and I guess in a way I have already done most of the homework so I have been procrastinating on spending the money for the dyno. I have also done more field testing than I can shake a stick at and that is where the bacon is.
As far as the crank bore rifiling is concerned. If done correctly will accelerate the mixture down the center of the bore and will increase pack and atomization while also helping it to keep the mixture suspended and not allow the mixture to settle and pool up on in the bore at lower speed operation. Some of you will say it doesn't work and say whatever you want but all I can say is I have done it to Mikuni 44mm Super BN watercraft carbs when i was racing for factory polaris and I picked up 2 boat lengths off the line from throttle response and another 2 mph on top. Not sure how it will react in this application but it certainly will not hurt anything trying it out. I will also be rifling the carb venturi in a similar fashion. I am currently working on a Picco P3-28 that the customer asked me to give him the most radical engine I have done to date and is not afraid to let me experiment with his engine.
As far as the question originally asked, the Picco P3-28 is a great engine that needs work to help with some of the irregular tuning issues it has in stock trim and it is a wicked piece when finished. Like Adam, I have also modded plenty of them and I can assure you that when done correctly will flat out be one of the best performing engines for the money. I have never seen a better running, easier to tune engine for under $200 that lasts 8+ gallons with little to no problems. You still have to tear it down and inspect the case for shavings and other foreign debris and the carbs are notorious for having shavings in the idle circuit but once cleaned up and ported up, it will probably become one of your more favored engines in your line up.
On my final note and I appologize for the long post, I read most of the posts on here and listen to what people say good or bad and all I can say is none of the comments go without thought. I have listened and heard alot of good ideas from many different people and I have also read some pretty ridiculous things and comments and this is more for the modders out there. Don't take peoples comments to seriously and just do what you think is right because time will tell if you are doing the right thing. I have learned so much in the past 12 years with engines of all types and alot of those thoughts and ideas that went into designing them have stemmed from someone elses idea that was on the right track but not applied correctly. One last thing for the other guys that mock someones work, just because it hasn't been seen before doesn't mean it doesn't work. Just some food for thought gentlemen!!
Thanks for everyone's time and hopefully these good ideas continue to spitball!!
Mark
About 3 years ago when I started out as a business I wasn't sure if my ideas would pass or fail in the world of R/C. I was just coming off of a career as an engine designer for a company that designed and hand built custom race engines for factory polaris. We casted, machined and ported our own cylinders. We designed and had Weisco mass produce pistons for snowmobile and personal watercraft engines world wide. We also spent countless hours side by side with Paul Gast from Fast by Gast designing aftermarket big bore carbs called Lectron Megatrons and anyone in the world of superbike racing knows who Paul Gast is. We also designed and built custom performance exhaust systems for snowmobiles, 4 wheelers, dirtbikes and some other interesting projects that had snowmobile engines jammed in them.
I have taken most of what I learned and the R+D that went into these motors and brought it to these scaled down versions. I know the carbs are not the same and there are several other things that these motors do not incorperate but the operation principle is the same. They are still basic 2 cycle operating machines and the same theories and principles still apply. I have also spent countless hours on full size superflow dynos testing anything from a 50cc dirtbike engine to twin 502 ci. whipple supercharged engines making over 900hp each for a 32' offshore powerboat.
There are alot of things a dyno will tell you and there are alot of things it won't. A dyno is a great tool to see what certain changes will do as far as static numbers but it will not dictate how the engine performs in the field. I was thinking about getting a nitrodyne system that is currently the industry standard and it will be a big help as far as raw numbers. I have seen alot of the same results in the little motors as I saw in the bigger motors and I guess in a way I have already done most of the homework so I have been procrastinating on spending the money for the dyno. I have also done more field testing than I can shake a stick at and that is where the bacon is.
As far as the crank bore rifiling is concerned. If done correctly will accelerate the mixture down the center of the bore and will increase pack and atomization while also helping it to keep the mixture suspended and not allow the mixture to settle and pool up on in the bore at lower speed operation. Some of you will say it doesn't work and say whatever you want but all I can say is I have done it to Mikuni 44mm Super BN watercraft carbs when i was racing for factory polaris and I picked up 2 boat lengths off the line from throttle response and another 2 mph on top. Not sure how it will react in this application but it certainly will not hurt anything trying it out. I will also be rifling the carb venturi in a similar fashion. I am currently working on a Picco P3-28 that the customer asked me to give him the most radical engine I have done to date and is not afraid to let me experiment with his engine.
As far as the question originally asked, the Picco P3-28 is a great engine that needs work to help with some of the irregular tuning issues it has in stock trim and it is a wicked piece when finished. Like Adam, I have also modded plenty of them and I can assure you that when done correctly will flat out be one of the best performing engines for the money. I have never seen a better running, easier to tune engine for under $200 that lasts 8+ gallons with little to no problems. You still have to tear it down and inspect the case for shavings and other foreign debris and the carbs are notorious for having shavings in the idle circuit but once cleaned up and ported up, it will probably become one of your more favored engines in your line up.
On my final note and I appologize for the long post, I read most of the posts on here and listen to what people say good or bad and all I can say is none of the comments go without thought. I have listened and heard alot of good ideas from many different people and I have also read some pretty ridiculous things and comments and this is more for the modders out there. Don't take peoples comments to seriously and just do what you think is right because time will tell if you are doing the right thing. I have learned so much in the past 12 years with engines of all types and alot of those thoughts and ideas that went into designing them have stemmed from someone elses idea that was on the right track but not applied correctly. One last thing for the other guys that mock someones work, just because it hasn't been seen before doesn't mean it doesn't work. Just some food for thought gentlemen!!
Thanks for everyone's time and hopefully these good ideas continue to spitball!!
Mark
07-07-2008, 10:11 PM
#20
Well Mark we definitely agree on 1 thing without a doubt and thats the P3 Picco .28.
And like I have said many times, if your not trying new things and pushing the envelope then nothing will ever improve. So all we can do is theorize and then put it into action. If it works GREAT if not then its back to the drawing board. I know I am always looking for ways to get more out of the engines without negative effects on tune, fuel consumption etc.
And like I have said many times, if your not trying new things and pushing the envelope then nothing will ever improve. So all we can do is theorize and then put it into action. If it works GREAT if not then its back to the drawing board. I know I am always looking for ways to get more out of the engines without negative effects on tune, fuel consumption etc.
07-08-2008, 03:34 AM
#21
i think what some people are trying to say here is that you can do a lot of R&D on these motors but when it really comes down to it it all come from just out right doing it. now when i was talking about my guy rifling the crank... he was telling me that if you do this that when the fuel is rotating in the crank that the fuel will stay addimized in the center of the crank and it will have a faster chance of reaching the chamber then if it wasnt rifled. it all just goes back to trying it and seeing for yourself if it works. the guy i have been talking to has been in the military and awhile and has learned alot about helicopter engines and has applied what he knows about them into these motors. with the rifling in there im not losing anything from it.
Granted when you put a ported motor up to a dyno you will get some readings but what happens when you put the complete oposite motor or smaller or bigger motor on it witht he same mods? you will get a completly different number. yes it will be hard to show were your improvement came from but you know what you did gave it some improvement.
just alittle helpful tip that you guys can take or not is look at this web site and read about all his different port jobs he offers.
powerhouseperformance.com
Good luck just somethings that have been pasted to me for me to understand how this stuff works alot better.
Granted when you put a ported motor up to a dyno you will get some readings but what happens when you put the complete oposite motor or smaller or bigger motor on it witht he same mods? you will get a completly different number. yes it will be hard to show were your improvement came from but you know what you did gave it some improvement.
just alittle helpful tip that you guys can take or not is look at this web site and read about all his different port jobs he offers.
powerhouseperformance.com
Good luck just somethings that have been pasted to me for me to understand how this stuff works alot better.
Rifling the crank will not do anything IMO but that's my outlook on it from observing what works and what doesn't work inside these engines. And cutting the bottom edge of the counter balance will just throw it out of whack and do more harm then good as it will in fact make it vibrate alot more and then your looking at premature engine wear and possible failure. None of this has been on a standardized dyno such as the X-Dyno though so its just theoretical fluid dynamics and engineering.
BTW Can you clarify what you mean when you referred to dynoing engines because it didn't make much sense to me. But if you ment it how I read then its this simple... You don't do the exact same thing to say a on road JLR .12 as you would a Vspec off road .21 engine. So there is apples to oranges comparison again. You look at what your working with an improve that engine using the knowledge you have learned over the many years of R&D with THESE engines not turbine engines, multi cylinder car engines or snowmobile engines etc.
And Addimized is spelled atomized. Not trying to be rude just helping with a little correction.
07-08-2008, 04:24 PM
#22
Oh German Muscle my son, you still have much to learn in this young world. I'm glad you caught my spelling error. I see you have attention to detail and I actually do know how to spell atomized, I was just typing fast and not really paying as much attention.
Heres the thing, I'm not here to bash anyone, not trying to prove anyone wrong or get into verbal fights about who knows who and who knows what. All I am doing is giving our fellow racers another angle of approach from someone with a different background and thats it. People are asking for help and/or information on different things and I am simply giving them something else to look at. I like to think outside the box and do just that and I don't care if you think my ideas are stupid or don't work or whatever. I understand you are Adams friend and his camera man from time to time and I expect you to back his work just as my locals back mine but there is no need to bash someone else's ideas and work based on your theories or opinions.
I have not had one single engine failure that was a direct cause of the turboed crank and I have some news for you. The motors are actually smoother than stock because I move the rotational mass inward and relieve the stress off the bearing quite considerably. Most of the turboed cranks I have done for locals have run over 12 gallons and not even the rod was replaced. I am going off of what my local customers tell me and they are pretty stand up guys so I believe them when they tell me. I had a Picco P3-28 go 9 gallons not needing a thing so your assumptions have been proved wrong up to this point in time. Many things in this world are cross engineered and the dynamics and physics do not change so your theory of not being able to incorperate outside data into building a little engine has again been proved wrong.
There are approximately 8-10 modders that I know of and each one has their own theories and ideas and the people who agree with their ideas will purchase that service. Thats how everyone gets a piece of the business pie and not everyone will agree on my ideas and not everyone will agree on Adam's or your ideas. I will just continue to do what I have done from the beginning and let my motors do the talking.
If you have anymore to say about my work, PM me and we can discuss it there
Heres the thing, I'm not here to bash anyone, not trying to prove anyone wrong or get into verbal fights about who knows who and who knows what. All I am doing is giving our fellow racers another angle of approach from someone with a different background and thats it. People are asking for help and/or information on different things and I am simply giving them something else to look at. I like to think outside the box and do just that and I don't care if you think my ideas are stupid or don't work or whatever. I understand you are Adams friend and his camera man from time to time and I expect you to back his work just as my locals back mine but there is no need to bash someone else's ideas and work based on your theories or opinions.
I have not had one single engine failure that was a direct cause of the turboed crank and I have some news for you. The motors are actually smoother than stock because I move the rotational mass inward and relieve the stress off the bearing quite considerably. Most of the turboed cranks I have done for locals have run over 12 gallons and not even the rod was replaced. I am going off of what my local customers tell me and they are pretty stand up guys so I believe them when they tell me. I had a Picco P3-28 go 9 gallons not needing a thing so your assumptions have been proved wrong up to this point in time. Many things in this world are cross engineered and the dynamics and physics do not change so your theory of not being able to incorperate outside data into building a little engine has again been proved wrong.
There are approximately 8-10 modders that I know of and each one has their own theories and ideas and the people who agree with their ideas will purchase that service. Thats how everyone gets a piece of the business pie and not everyone will agree on my ideas and not everyone will agree on Adam's or your ideas. I will just continue to do what I have done from the beginning and let my motors do the talking.
If you have anymore to say about my work, PM me and we can discuss it there
07-08-2008, 04:44 PM
#23
Well We ALL have our own ideas and I will say this again.. "If your not trying new things and pushing the envelope then nothing will ever improve. So all we can do is theorize and then put it into action. If it works GREAT if not then its back to the drawing board."
Mark I in noway condone any bashing of others PERIOD. Germans ideas are his own. And I dont want you to take Germans intentions the wrong way either and see you all argue... I do think he was responding to dieseldog anyway.. But I wont speak for him, he is a big boy and can speak and explain himself and his theorys.
I am a 1 man show PERIOD. I have my own theorys and proven modifications. I do my own R&D and noone else helps me run my business PERIOD. So I dont want this misunderstood as German is NOT speaking for me he is speaking for HIMSELF. I honestly dont think he was bashing you he was just sharing his thoughts on things?? He is actually a good guy and means well. He is a local and comes by and hangs out on the weekends with full scale car and bike racing that we do as well as the RC. I do his RC engines as well as I tune his full scale car and help him out with that as well... SO yes he is a friend... and yes he supports me in my business as he has seen 1st hand what I do here.
If this turns into an arguement I will be out of here quicker then u can click the backspace button As I dont condone that and dont want to be any part of it. I am not here to argue at all... So I hope this goes uphill from here on out and we can have a nice intelligent conversation sharing our ideas etc with no bickering.
PS. I <3 you all!! lol
Mark I in noway condone any bashing of others PERIOD. Germans ideas are his own. And I dont want you to take Germans intentions the wrong way either and see you all argue... I do think he was responding to dieseldog anyway.. But I wont speak for him, he is a big boy and can speak and explain himself and his theorys.
I am a 1 man show PERIOD. I have my own theorys and proven modifications. I do my own R&D and noone else helps me run my business PERIOD. So I dont want this misunderstood as German is NOT speaking for me he is speaking for HIMSELF. I honestly dont think he was bashing you he was just sharing his thoughts on things?? He is actually a good guy and means well. He is a local and comes by and hangs out on the weekends with full scale car and bike racing that we do as well as the RC. I do his RC engines as well as I tune his full scale car and help him out with that as well... SO yes he is a friend... and yes he supports me in my business as he has seen 1st hand what I do here.
If this turns into an arguement I will be out of here quicker then u can click the backspace button
As I dont condone that and dont want to be any part of it. I am not here to argue at all... So I hope this goes uphill from here on out and we can have a nice intelligent conversation sharing our ideas etc with no bickering. PS. I <3 you all!! lol
07-08-2008, 05:00 PM
#24
Well We ALL have our own ideas and I will say this again.. "If your not trying new things and pushing the envelope then nothing will ever improve. So all we can do is theorize and then put it into action. If it works GREAT if not then its back to the drawing board."
Mark I in noway condone any bashing of others PERIOD. Germans ideas are his own. And I dont want you to take Germans intentions the wrong way either and see you all argue... I do think he was responding to dieseldog anyway.. But I wont speak for him, he is a big boy and can speak and explain himself and his theorys.
I am a 1 man show PERIOD. I have my own theorys and proven modifications. I do my own R&D and noone else helps me run my business PERIOD. So I dont want this misunderstood as German is NOT speaking for me he is speaking for HIMSELF. I honestly dont think he was bashing you he was just sharing his thoughts on things?? He is actually a good guy and means well. He is a local and comes by and hangs out on the weekends with full scale car and bike racing that we do as well as the RC. I do his RC engines as well as I tune his full scale car and help him out with that as well... SO yes he is a friend... and yes he supports me in my business as he has seen 1st hand what I do here.
If this turns into an arguement I will be out of here quicker then u can click the backspace button As I dont condone that and dont want to be any part of it. I am not here to argue at all... So I hope this goes uphill from here on out and we can have a nice intelligent conversation sharing our ideas etc with no bickering.
PS. I <3 you all!! lol
Mark I in noway condone any bashing of others PERIOD. Germans ideas are his own. And I dont want you to take Germans intentions the wrong way either and see you all argue... I do think he was responding to dieseldog anyway.. But I wont speak for him, he is a big boy and can speak and explain himself and his theorys.
I am a 1 man show PERIOD. I have my own theorys and proven modifications. I do my own R&D and noone else helps me run my business PERIOD. So I dont want this misunderstood as German is NOT speaking for me he is speaking for HIMSELF. I honestly dont think he was bashing you he was just sharing his thoughts on things?? He is actually a good guy and means well. He is a local and comes by and hangs out on the weekends with full scale car and bike racing that we do as well as the RC. I do his RC engines as well as I tune his full scale car and help him out with that as well... SO yes he is a friend... and yes he supports me in my business as he has seen 1st hand what I do here.
If this turns into an arguement I will be out of here quicker then u can click the backspace button
As I dont condone that and dont want to be any part of it. I am not here to argue at all... So I hope this goes uphill from here on out and we can have a nice intelligent conversation sharing our ideas etc with no bickering. PS. I <3 you all!! lol
07-08-2008, 06:49 PM
#25
I have no beef with you Adam, never did. Like you, I also will not get into a pissing match with anyone about my work. Like you, I am also a one man show and noone helps me run my business either so nothing from me personally was directed towards you. I respect you and you remind me of myself. Like you I love this hobby and do my best to help everyone out and I'm sure you to have had your fair share of criticism. German was directing it me due to the fact he quoted me , disrespected me and then felt the need to correct my spelling. He probably is a nice guy and I have friends like that too so I can seperate them from you with no problems. I always tell my guys to keep their mouth shut if they are not 110% positive on the subject matter so they don't make asses of themselves and drag me in to something I do not need to defend. I agree with you Adam and I too would like to start the uphill process on this topic.
07-08-2008, 07:04 PM
#26
I have no beef with you Adam, never did. Like you, I also will not get into a pissing match with anyone about my work. Like you, I am also a one man show and noone helps me run my business either so nothing from me personally was directed towards you. I respect you and you remind me of myself. Like you I love this hobby and do my best to help everyone out and I'm sure you to have had your fair share of criticism. German was directing it me due to the fact he quoted me , disrespected me and then felt the need to correct my spelling. He probably is a nice guy and I have friends like that too so I can seperate them from you with no problems. I always tell my guys to keep their mouth shut if they are not 110% positive on the subject matter so they don't make asses of themselves and drag me in to something I do not need to defend. I agree with you Adam and I too would like to start the uphill process on this topic.
Im not trying to make you look bad at all man. I just question some of your claims and theories is all. I question other modifiers claims and theories as well. Alot of them have been proven to be BS. I think in my own opinion that some of the stuff you claim/do. I know you dont haft to and probably wont prove me wrong as you dont feel you need to. I just dont see how applying "orange" technologies to "apples" can work. Alot of modders out there claim things that are just that and nothing else. For instance flow testing carbs, Fully balancing engines, etc Im not saying your full of crap i just look at it and scratch my head really. I dont know it all and probably never will but i know alot more than people think. Im not biased towards AB Mods either, I have run JP Racing engines as well. Adam is just local to me and we were friends before he even thought about modifying engines so ive kind of seen it all.
07-08-2008, 07:32 PM
#27
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German Muscle thanks for correcting my spelling but IMPO and the nicest way i can say this... i really dont care how to spell it all i know is that people know what im talking about. im not on here to learn spelling, im on here to learn more about want i have a hard time understanding myself just as you do. thats why i am all gun ho about having powerhouse do some new never done before stuff to my motor for first hand experiance/testing if you would say.
BTW thank you Mark for helping me out looking forward to recieving my motor when you get it done. Im a week away from getting out of Iraq, but you know take yout time and all its all good.
Thanks
BTW thank you Mark for helping me out looking forward to recieving my motor when you get it done. Im a week away from getting out of Iraq, but you know take yout time and all its all good.
Thanks
07-08-2008, 10:07 PM
#28
German Muscle thanks for correcting my spelling but IMPO and the nicest way i can say this... i really dont care how to spell it all i know is that people know what im talking about. im not on here to learn spelling, im on here to learn more about want i have a hard time understanding myself just as you do. thats why i am all gun ho about having powerhouse do some new never done before stuff to my motor for first hand experiance/testing if you would say.
BTW thank you Mark for helping me out looking forward to recieving my motor when you get it done. Im a week away from getting out of Iraq, but you know take yout time and all its all good.
Thanks
BTW thank you Mark for helping me out looking forward to recieving my motor when you get it done. Im a week away from getting out of Iraq, but you know take yout time and all its all good.
Thanks
07-09-2008, 09:52 AM
#29
My appologies to everyone on RC Tech, German, sorry for the misunderstanding!! No harm no foul. I can understand your reasons for the questioning and I expect it from most people due to the fact my work is definately different from most and alot of people do not understand what I do and why I do it but thats cool because again, I just let the motors talk the talk and walk the walk. I can sit here and tell you guys how great this is or that is but it basically comes down to finished product and does it do what the customer wants. Like I said earlier, everyone has their own thoughts and theories and the modder who comes closest to their expectations will get the business. Its like the automotive industry. All vehicles have a frame, seats, 4 tires and an engine. They all get from point A to point B and back to point A but it all depends on how you want to get there whether it be in speed, style, comfort etc. Same goes for modding, most engines will perform better than stock, some won't but it depends if the person operating that motor likes the performance it delivers and thats why we have all these vast and different opinions on which modder to choose. I'm not looking to eat the whole business pie, I just want a piece of it just like anyone else out there trying to make a few bucks along the way. Sounds groovy, lets back to business fellas!!
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