ROAR Nats gripe
06-10-2008, 07:54 PM
#76
Ah who am I kidding GO FAST AND TRY NOT TO CRASH! and thats at any skill level.
06-10-2008, 08:01 PM
#77
I have read through this thread a couple of times and have come to understand that "one" single event is not going to please everyone. It is what it is, like it or not. I have thought the ROAR Nats were intended to be an "Open" event, meaning anyone that got their entiy in on time and could make it to the location of the race had a shot at a win. Kind of like the U.S. Open in Golf and Tennis, its open to everyone. "Pro" or not. I under stand the cost involved to run at such an event and also know that I will probably not take home the hardware from the A-Main on Sun. Still with alot of luck for me and bad luck for the top guys, I may have a shot at a win. I'm fine with that and don't quite understand why its such a big issue. I plan on attending the Silver State again next year, but I will be better prepared with the proper tires to run there. I may not have the funds to run "one run" tires the whole event, but I will try to have enough to be comfortable with what I have on hand. I guess if winning means that much to some one, maybe they are not in the hobby for the right reason to begin with.
On the other hand, lets say there were seperate classes for "Pro's" and "Sportsman" at the Nats. How would they be seperated? Full Factory in one and all others in the other? That may not work because someone might have a sponsorship, but not a full ride which may be an issue to someone else. Likewise what about the guy/girl that just lost his/her full ride and now doesn't have one , but is known to be fast. Which class would they have to go in? On one hand they aren't fully sponsored which should keep them out of the "Factory" class. On the other hand, that very same racer would have a higher skill level than anyone in the non "Factory" class that the arguement could be made that they didn't really belong in that class either. Sounds funny, but it has happened. So what would need to be done? No easy answer and right way to go about doing it. Leave it as it stands and try to stock up on things that will be used/needed for the Nats. and run to have fun.
On the other hand, lets say there were seperate classes for "Pro's" and "Sportsman" at the Nats. How would they be seperated? Full Factory in one and all others in the other? That may not work because someone might have a sponsorship, but not a full ride which may be an issue to someone else. Likewise what about the guy/girl that just lost his/her full ride and now doesn't have one , but is known to be fast. Which class would they have to go in? On one hand they aren't fully sponsored which should keep them out of the "Factory" class. On the other hand, that very same racer would have a higher skill level than anyone in the non "Factory" class that the arguement could be made that they didn't really belong in that class either. Sounds funny, but it has happened. So what would need to be done? No easy answer and right way to go about doing it. Leave it as it stands and try to stock up on things that will be used/needed for the Nats. and run to have fun.
06-10-2008, 08:10 PM
#78
having fun is why i race.. im sure there many other things i could spend thousands on each year
06-10-2008, 08:15 PM
#79
I have read through this thread a couple of times and have come to understand that "one" single event is not going to please everyone. It is what it is, like it or not. I have thought the ROAR Nats were intended to be an "Open" event, meaning anyone that got their entiy in on time and could make it to the location of the race had a shot at a win. Kind of like the U.S. Open in Golf and Tennis, its open to everyone. "Pro" or not. I under stand the cost involved to run at such an event and also know that I will probably not take home the hardware from the A-Main on Sun. Still with alot of luck for me and bad luck for the top guys, I may have a shot at a win. I'm fine with that and don't quite understand why its such a big issue. I plan on attending the Silver State again next year, but I will be better prepared with the proper tires to run there. I may not have the funds to run "one run" tires the whole event, but I will try to have enough to be comfortable with what I have on hand. I guess if winning means that much to some one, maybe they are not in the hobby for the right reason to begin with.
On the other hand, lets say there were seperate classes for "Pro's" and "Sportsman" at the Nats. How would they be seperated? Full Factory in one and all others in the other? That may not work because someone might have a sponsorship, but not a full ride which may be an issue to someone else. Likewise what about the guy/girl that just lost his/her full ride and now doesn't have one , but is known to be fast. Which class would they have to go in? On one hand they aren't fully sponsored which should keep them out of the "Factory" class. On the other hand, that very same racer would have a higher skill level than anyone in the non "Factory" class that the arguement could be made that they didn't really belong in that class either. Sounds funny, but it has happened. So what would need to be done? No easy answer and right way to go about doing it. Leave it as it stands and try to stock up on things that will be used/needed for the Nats. and run to have fun.
On the other hand, lets say there were seperate classes for "Pro's" and "Sportsman" at the Nats. How would they be seperated? Full Factory in one and all others in the other? That may not work because someone might have a sponsorship, but not a full ride which may be an issue to someone else. Likewise what about the guy/girl that just lost his/her full ride and now doesn't have one , but is known to be fast. Which class would they have to go in? On one hand they aren't fully sponsored which should keep them out of the "Factory" class. On the other hand, that very same racer would have a higher skill level than anyone in the non "Factory" class that the arguement could be made that they didn't really belong in that class either. Sounds funny, but it has happened. So what would need to be done? No easy answer and right way to go about doing it. Leave it as it stands and try to stock up on things that will be used/needed for the Nats. and run to have fun.
I can race for fun at fifteen and a race like the nats is a lot higher. If you can show up at the nats with with just the fun of racing in mind and leaving the win in the rear view thats great. But I hate to lose at any level. If I were to run at the nats I would be full on for the win. I think you are to or you wouldn't care about the tires. When I ran at the 2000 ROAR gas nat'ls I had a back up motor and one run tires for 4 days. I had about 1000.00 in that race. Counting 2 days off work.If your going to show ya just gotta bring it.
06-10-2008, 08:54 PM
#80
You guys are killing me,
Though I guess I didn't make the point I was after. I agree that at the Nats. it is more than an average "Club" race, but I'm not super hurt if I don't win. I don't feel that I have to, though I have a small shot at doing so in the big picture. I try to run the best I can with what I have, sometimes I have alot of extras and sometimes I don't. If I get a win, great as I wasn't expecting to. If I don't then I have to try harder next time. My point is that I know we all want to get a win at any race or event such as the Nats., but its not always going to happen. Its racing.
I'll give you my story from the Silver State this year. Went there knowing it was going to be run as an "Open" event and knew I probably wasn't going to get a win. Having that in mind I went out to see how well I could do and realistically thought I'd be at the bottom of the Mains. Long story short, motors didn't want to run in either buggy or truggy all the way up to the Mains on Sun. For what ever reason my truggy motor woke up for the L main and ended up bumping to the I main. I had ran better than I expected, given I had not attended a "Big" race in a muber of years. Did I win? No, but I was very happy to end up where I did. It was better than I thought I would do. Next year I hope to do better than that.
Though I guess I didn't make the point I was after. I agree that at the Nats. it is more than an average "Club" race, but I'm not super hurt if I don't win. I don't feel that I have to, though I have a small shot at doing so in the big picture. I try to run the best I can with what I have, sometimes I have alot of extras and sometimes I don't. If I get a win, great as I wasn't expecting to. If I don't then I have to try harder next time. My point is that I know we all want to get a win at any race or event such as the Nats., but its not always going to happen. Its racing.
I'll give you my story from the Silver State this year. Went there knowing it was going to be run as an "Open" event and knew I probably wasn't going to get a win. Having that in mind I went out to see how well I could do and realistically thought I'd be at the bottom of the Mains. Long story short, motors didn't want to run in either buggy or truggy all the way up to the Mains on Sun. For what ever reason my truggy motor woke up for the L main and ended up bumping to the I main. I had ran better than I expected, given I had not attended a "Big" race in a muber of years. Did I win? No, but I was very happy to end up where I did. It was better than I thought I would do. Next year I hope to do better than that.
06-10-2008, 09:20 PM
#81
Tech Addict
Production rules are POINTLESS. There is absolutely no reason to create rules in an attempt to "level the playing field" between the factory teams and the average privateer. This isn't communism. Racing costs money, and those with resources have an advantage. A production rule will do nothing but hinder evolution of equipment. I've been against ROAR's product approval system since I understood the concept.
Aside from handing racers completely spec'd handout cars, tires, engines, fuel, etc. you are never going to get rid of the advantages of having better equipment. And you're never going to stop the manufacturers from giving their drivers unobtainable equipment. Team blended fuel? Different compound tires? Hand-assembled and modified engines? Components that have been drilled/machined/lightened/made from different materials?
If you want to petition for spec-class racing on a local level, that's great. But leave the Nationals alone. It's the most important race of the year for drivers and manufacturers, and they should be allowed to showcase their products and build excitement for new releases.
Aside from handing racers completely spec'd handout cars, tires, engines, fuel, etc. you are never going to get rid of the advantages of having better equipment. And you're never going to stop the manufacturers from giving their drivers unobtainable equipment. Team blended fuel? Different compound tires? Hand-assembled and modified engines? Components that have been drilled/machined/lightened/made from different materials?
If you want to petition for spec-class racing on a local level, that's great. But leave the Nationals alone. It's the most important race of the year for drivers and manufacturers, and they should be allowed to showcase their products and build excitement for new releases.
thats bogus if you ask me.
did Truhe run the same chassis, shocks, tires and rims that Losi manufactured? from the looks of things he did, and i commend him for doing so, shows that him and his team have done their homework and were able to have their company produce a winning vehicle.
06-10-2008, 09:27 PM
#82
Tech Addict
a vehicle that joe blow can go purchase at any local hobby store! and wont have to toss in another couple of hundred!
06-10-2008, 09:30 PM
#83
Tech Addict
A sportsman class at the Nationals would defeat the purpose, it is to see who is the best of everybody, not to see who is the fastest person that signed up for pro and the fastest person that signed up for sportsman. And having a whole new class opens up a whole new can of worms, ever heard of sand bagging? Well if the Nats had a sportsman class I guarantee you that it would not be a sportsman level driver that wins the sporstman class. And If you want to race a sportsman class the pro-line saturday series will be at thuder-alley on the 21st.
Guys if you dont like the rules then dont go to that race, if you are worried about not having a sportsman class then dont go to the nats because you probably arn't ready! There are plenty of other big races in California, for example the JBRL and Pro-line saturday series, and they both go to the same place that the Nats was at, Thunder Alley
Guys if you dont like the rules then dont go to that race, if you are worried about not having a sportsman class then dont go to the nats because you probably arn't ready! There are plenty of other big races in California, for example the JBRL and Pro-line saturday series, and they both go to the same place that the Nats was at, Thunder Alley
+1000000 couldnt agree more lol
06-10-2008, 09:37 PM
#84
Just because a guy has some new parts does not mean that they are always better. But a new car and motor are key. preparing for the Nats is expensive for the average racer. Tires mainly. Just because you dont have time to practise as much a s a pro is your problem. You may have to make time if you wanna be prepared. I have been racing buggies for 15yrs. I had the skill but not the cash to compete at that level. Job,family as well as you. A lot of these guys have jobs too. They can only practise when they can. Scott Hughes,Pavidis. They dont run as much as you think. But some others are always at the track testing. Dont sell yourself short. Prepare your equipment and you can do it. Gas racing is pretty even. Never had a mod motor, no need to.
06-10-2008, 09:59 PM
#85
Like I said earlier most of these factory off road guys started out as teenagers with parents that supported them examples Cav. and Tebo so all they had do is practice practice practice. Hell there first job was probably working for an rc company.
Second I think is also comes down to half the people at that go to Nats pay a lot of money to be there while they have to race against someone being paid to be there. And for what have there ass handed to them because they practice with the buggy the guy right next to them helped develop from the ground up by running it ten hours a day for two years before it came out on the market.
Third all other forms of sports have different levels
Baseball A, AA, AAA, Majors
Football NFL AFL
Golf PGA NIKE TOUR
Basketball NBA CBA Europe
NASCAR Arca Nationwide Sprint Cup
Jet Ski Novice PRO Am
Everyone of these sports from peewee baseball up to the Major league have some for of tournament or qualifcation to make to the final event
Why not ROAR make some sort of rule change it doesn't have to be that way live with is
It really isn't about the better parts is about the person you are racing against.
ROAR is making is work for on road if you win stock at NAts you can not race that class for five years.
Also you could not race off road stock nats and mod nats.
What makes nitro any different.
One last coment is that Caveleri was quoted in one of the mags about how he would get pissed when some privateer would either hold him up or wreak him and how they don't realize that the better I do the more money I get paid from my sponsors and how one wreak could cost him getting paid a $1000.
I wonder if Nascar would let me try and qualify my Hobby Stock car at the next Sprint Cup race. Wouldn't be no different then running a Ofna Violator at Nats would it
Second I think is also comes down to half the people at that go to Nats pay a lot of money to be there while they have to race against someone being paid to be there. And for what have there ass handed to them because they practice with the buggy the guy right next to them helped develop from the ground up by running it ten hours a day for two years before it came out on the market.
Third all other forms of sports have different levels
Baseball A, AA, AAA, Majors
Football NFL AFL
Golf PGA NIKE TOUR
Basketball NBA CBA Europe
NASCAR Arca Nationwide Sprint Cup
Jet Ski Novice PRO Am
Everyone of these sports from peewee baseball up to the Major league have some for of tournament or qualifcation to make to the final event
Why not ROAR make some sort of rule change it doesn't have to be that way live with is
It really isn't about the better parts is about the person you are racing against.
ROAR is making is work for on road if you win stock at NAts you can not race that class for five years.
Also you could not race off road stock nats and mod nats.
What makes nitro any different.
One last coment is that Caveleri was quoted in one of the mags about how he would get pissed when some privateer would either hold him up or wreak him and how they don't realize that the better I do the more money I get paid from my sponsors and how one wreak could cost him getting paid a $1000.
I wonder if Nascar would let me try and qualify my Hobby Stock car at the next Sprint Cup race. Wouldn't be no different then running a Ofna Violator at Nats would it
06-11-2008, 12:57 AM
#86
Jesse - Why is it bogus if he runs other equipment? You don't stand to lose anything if he runs a different chassis. It doesn't affect you in any way.
Racing is about doing what you can, within the rules, to go as fast as possible. If that means hand-modifying a chassis, drilling out diff gears, or making low-oil content fuel for better fuel mileage, so be it. Anyone with the resources can do those things, factory racer or not.
Every race I've ever been to had a sportsman class. It's called the "lower mains". Not everyone gets to win, or compete in, an A-main event. My first national championship race, I bumped from the G to the F main, and I was a total privateer. I wasn't crying for a sportsman class, I wanted to see how I stacked up against the best in the country. I don't understand why winning the A-main in sportsman is any different than winning the D-main at an open event?
Factory guys are not fast because they are sponsored, they are sponsored because they are fast. But with all the 50% deals that get thrown around, it makes no sense to try and separate classes based on sponsorship. There is no way to split an entry list into two separate divisions without some type of talent overlap. It's just not possible. So why is it still an issue?
It works for motocross, stock car racing, etc. because you're not organizing heats of 10-12 cars for a class that can exceed 100 entries or more. Motocross, you've got 40 riders on the gate. Stock car races can have 40 in one race, etc. RC racing is not like other forms of racing.
Racing is about doing what you can, within the rules, to go as fast as possible. If that means hand-modifying a chassis, drilling out diff gears, or making low-oil content fuel for better fuel mileage, so be it. Anyone with the resources can do those things, factory racer or not.
Every race I've ever been to had a sportsman class. It's called the "lower mains". Not everyone gets to win, or compete in, an A-main event. My first national championship race, I bumped from the G to the F main, and I was a total privateer. I wasn't crying for a sportsman class, I wanted to see how I stacked up against the best in the country. I don't understand why winning the A-main in sportsman is any different than winning the D-main at an open event?
Factory guys are not fast because they are sponsored, they are sponsored because they are fast. But with all the 50% deals that get thrown around, it makes no sense to try and separate classes based on sponsorship. There is no way to split an entry list into two separate divisions without some type of talent overlap. It's just not possible. So why is it still an issue?
It works for motocross, stock car racing, etc. because you're not organizing heats of 10-12 cars for a class that can exceed 100 entries or more. Motocross, you've got 40 riders on the gate. Stock car races can have 40 in one race, etc. RC racing is not like other forms of racing.
06-11-2008, 02:43 AM
#87
Racing is about doing what you can, within the rules, to go as fast as possible. If that means hand-modifying a chassis, drilling out diff gears, or making low-oil content fuel for better fuel mileage, so be it. Anyone with the resources can do those things, factory racer or not.
Every race I've ever been to had a sportsman class. It's called the "lower mains". Not everyone gets to win, or compete in, an A-main event. My first national championship race, I bumped from the G to the F main, and I was a total privateer. I wasn't crying for a sportsman class, I wanted to see how I stacked up against the best in the country. I don't understand why winning the A-main in sportsman is any different than winning the D-main at an open event?
Factory guys are not fast because they are sponsored, they are sponsored because they are fast. But with all the 50% deals that get thrown around, it makes no sense to try and separate classes based on sponsorship. There is no way to split an entry list into two separate divisions without some type of talent overlap. It's just not possible. So why is it still an issue?
It works for motocross, stock car racing, etc. because you're not organizing heats of 10-12 cars for a class that can exceed 100 entries or more. Motocross, you've got 40 riders on the gate. Stock car races can have 40 in one race, etc. RC racing is not like other forms of racing.
Every race I've ever been to had a sportsman class. It's called the "lower mains". Not everyone gets to win, or compete in, an A-main event. My first national championship race, I bumped from the G to the F main, and I was a total privateer. I wasn't crying for a sportsman class, I wanted to see how I stacked up against the best in the country. I don't understand why winning the A-main in sportsman is any different than winning the D-main at an open event?
Factory guys are not fast because they are sponsored, they are sponsored because they are fast. But with all the 50% deals that get thrown around, it makes no sense to try and separate classes based on sponsorship. There is no way to split an entry list into two separate divisions without some type of talent overlap. It's just not possible. So why is it still an issue?
It works for motocross, stock car racing, etc. because you're not organizing heats of 10-12 cars for a class that can exceed 100 entries or more. Motocross, you've got 40 riders on the gate. Stock car races can have 40 in one race, etc. RC racing is not like other forms of racing.
After reading all this thread and getting a bit upset about it I really sat back and thought about it. I just thought with a sportsman class the average racer might have more fun at a large event like this. I have to say that Aarons post has made me rethink and I guess that the current format really is the best way to do things. To finish 100th out of 220 entries of mixed skill level is better than finishing 3 in the b main of a sportsman class to me at least. Sorry everyone for stirring the pot earlier. I've been in rc's for 20+ years and I guess I was having a old man moment even though I'm only 35
.
06-11-2008, 04:25 AM
#88
Its all good and we all have our opinions to what we like and don't like.
Aaron made the point I was after better than I did. 20+ years, yup me too and this is just one of those things that come up from time to time over the years and it can still strick a cord with racers.
I had an idea once when NORRCA was still around, have NORRCA run all the Stock/ Sportsman events and have ROAR run all the mod/ Expert/ "Pro" events. I got laughed at many times over for that, but thought that both could work together in that way instead of each having their own Championships for pretty much the same classes. Good points were made on both sides of the issue.
Aaron made the point I was after better than I did. 20+ years, yup me too and this is just one of those things that come up from time to time over the years and it can still strick a cord with racers.
I had an idea once when NORRCA was still around, have NORRCA run all the Stock/ Sportsman events and have ROAR run all the mod/ Expert/ "Pro" events. I got laughed at many times over for that, but thought that both could work together in that way instead of each having their own Championships for pretty much the same classes. Good points were made on both sides of the issue.
06-11-2008, 05:51 AM
#89
Offence taken by the broke sportsman racing his arse and mortgage money off to travel to these meetings to provide the numbers to run the meeting in the first place, respect please we may not win an A main doesnt mean we arent trying as hard or harder just because we are in a "LOWER MAIN", for the record i enjoy racing against national level drivers it lets you know where you need to improve and an invaluable means to learn, in fact i try to pick meetings by whos going to be there.
06-11-2008, 06:20 AM
#90
Jesse - Why is it bogus if he runs other equipment? You don't stand to lose anything if he runs a different chassis. It doesn't affect you in any way.
Racing is about doing what you can, within the rules, to go as fast as possible. If that means hand-modifying a chassis, drilling out diff gears, or making low-oil content fuel for better fuel mileage, so be it. Anyone with the resources can do those things, factory racer or not.
Every race I've ever been to had a sportsman class. It's called the "lower mains". Not everyone gets to win, or compete in, an A-main event. My first national championship race, I bumped from the G to the F main, and I was a total privateer. I wasn't crying for a sportsman class, I wanted to see how I stacked up against the best in the country. I don't understand why winning the A-main in sportsman is any different than winning the D-main at an open event?
Factory guys are not fast because they are sponsored, they are sponsored because they are fast. But with all the 50% deals that get thrown around, it makes no sense to try and separate classes based on sponsorship. There is no way to split an entry list into two separate divisions without some type of talent overlap. It's just not possible. So why is it still an issue?
It works for motocross, stock car racing, etc. because you're not organizing heats of 10-12 cars for a class that can exceed 100 entries or more. Motocross, you've got 40 riders on the gate. Stock car races can have 40 in one race, etc. RC racing is not like other forms of racing.
Racing is about doing what you can, within the rules, to go as fast as possible. If that means hand-modifying a chassis, drilling out diff gears, or making low-oil content fuel for better fuel mileage, so be it. Anyone with the resources can do those things, factory racer or not.
Every race I've ever been to had a sportsman class. It's called the "lower mains". Not everyone gets to win, or compete in, an A-main event. My first national championship race, I bumped from the G to the F main, and I was a total privateer. I wasn't crying for a sportsman class, I wanted to see how I stacked up against the best in the country. I don't understand why winning the A-main in sportsman is any different than winning the D-main at an open event?
Factory guys are not fast because they are sponsored, they are sponsored because they are fast. But with all the 50% deals that get thrown around, it makes no sense to try and separate classes based on sponsorship. There is no way to split an entry list into two separate divisions without some type of talent overlap. It's just not possible. So why is it still an issue?
It works for motocross, stock car racing, etc. because you're not organizing heats of 10-12 cars for a class that can exceed 100 entries or more. Motocross, you've got 40 riders on the gate. Stock car races can have 40 in one race, etc. RC racing is not like other forms of racing.
I must say that this thread has been a very calm and respectful debate.
And in any debate its good that any one participating can have a meeting of the minds.
Its for the good of the sport/hobby.
You have summed it up nicely with your post. Well said.
