Lap Timing Systems
07-11-2008, 12:00 AM
#61
RF is Radio Frequency.
Other events besides R/C need cheaper scoring systems. Besides being cheaper they need to offer flexible scoring options.
RF or radio frequecny is idea but other options should remain
RFID, each racer uses a RFID sticker, this would be helpful for events with 100's of participants: Marathons, Cycle races ects. The stickers cost only about a nickle a piece.
IR or infrared is a cheaper solution than RF some race promotors might want that.
Other events besides R/C need cheaper scoring systems. Besides being cheaper they need to offer flexible scoring options.
RF or radio frequecny is idea but other options should remain
RFID, each racer uses a RFID sticker, this would be helpful for events with 100's of participants: Marathons, Cycle races ects. The stickers cost only about a nickle a piece.
IR or infrared is a cheaper solution than RF some race promotors might want that.
07-11-2008, 02:51 AM
#62
A company just needs to make a "cheaper" RF scoring system.
Antenna Loop: 75 Ohm Coax and 300 Ohm loop. Simple off the shelf products so tracks can install several loops just by calling Larry the Cable Guy.
Decoder box: Simple RF to USB interfaces. Adustible signal gain, Sector Loop inputs!
PTX's: Every PTX is the same. When you buy it, you login online and regisiter your PTX and USB flash your UNIQUE PTX number on to it. No need for clones, no need for having to remember what PTX # was in what car. All you cars have the same number. When you sell your PTX to friend, they can flash their number into the PTX.
House TXs: Every TX the same. The track can USB flash any number 1~99 into the TX so if they lose or break a TX a spare can be replace it without then need of a special order.
Software: Just need to Add sector timing and simultanous racing classes to the software. GTP and GT would love that.
Antenna Loop: 75 Ohm Coax and 300 Ohm loop. Simple off the shelf products so tracks can install several loops just by calling Larry the Cable Guy.
Decoder box: Simple RF to USB interfaces. Adustible signal gain, Sector Loop inputs!
PTX's: Every PTX is the same. When you buy it, you login online and regisiter your PTX and USB flash your UNIQUE PTX number on to it. No need for clones, no need for having to remember what PTX # was in what car. All you cars have the same number. When you sell your PTX to friend, they can flash their number into the PTX.
House TXs: Every TX the same. The track can USB flash any number 1~99 into the TX so if they lose or break a TX a spare can be replace it without then need of a special order.
Software: Just need to Add sector timing and simultanous racing classes to the software. GTP and GT would love that.
Knew we were improving on the existing AMB transponders, making advances with transponder designs etc.. didn't realise our PTX transponder name was now used to replace the AMB 'PT' name
Agreed a company just needs to make a cheaper system (it's not RF though, it's magnetic induction) you're obviously ahead of us.. the ideas are good, we're already planning for the 'universal transponder' and other new developments to move lap timing/scoring forward with some really neat ideas for the future.
The main objective is making any new system affordable and flexible, and the transponders cheap, that's the top priority. The biggest problem is the fact that clubs are already heavily invested and locked-in with the systems they use now. It's certainly not easy, but not impossible to overcome the difficulties.. more good ideas and some clever thinking is still needed!
07-11-2008, 06:23 AM
#63
RF = Radio Frequency
That's the hard part and the reason why AMB has a lock down on the business in RC, because they handle race timing on a huge scale.
Nothing against I-LapRC, but the issue with that is the line of site issues that tend to make it non-RC friendly, especially in a Nitro environment.
That's the hard part and the reason why AMB has a lock down on the business in RC, because they handle race timing on a huge scale.
Nothing against I-LapRC, but the issue with that is the line of site issues that tend to make it non-RC friendly, especially in a Nitro environment.
Correct me if I'm wrong but AMB isn't RF. Also, how can you absolutely know that I-LapRC is problematic with Nitro? I've never heard one problem from anyone running races using I-LapRC where nitro makes any difference or causes any problems. Why would nitro be problematic? Do you race nitro vehicles somewhere that uses I-LapRC and have seen problems first hand?
07-11-2008, 06:31 AM
#64
I-LapRC doesn't want to replace an up and running track's timing system. That's not necessarily their market.
Any new timing system hardware product's market are people and places that can't afford to buy into an AMB system. As an example at our track I-LapRC personal transponders are about 40 bucks each. There's many racers who own two or three of them so they don't have to swap them out of their various vehicles.
07-11-2008, 07:14 AM
#65
I think that what Terry understands is the fact that there are a lot of racers out there that have 3 or even 4 personals already. Most of us have a a couple of transponders because we race a couple of classes.
So, pretty much all of the racers out there have spent $200 to $400+ on personals already. With the cost of racing (and gas to get there) try telling a racer that he needs to ditch the old transponders and see what they say. Personally I want no part of buying new transponders that may or may not work at a big race or national.
I think that any new system will need the following 3 things to be accepted.
1) Inexpensive decoder box - inexpensive meaning less than half the cost of AMB. Existing clubs and shops don't need another huge investment if they want to switch
2) The new system must be able to read existing AMB transponders so that people don't have to shell out even more cash. House transponders would still work eliminating that expense for existing tracks that want to switch.
3) The new transponders don't need to be compatable with AMB but the numbers can't conflict (perhaps adding the letters MRT at the end for instance)
So, pretty much all of the racers out there have spent $200 to $400+ on personals already. With the cost of racing (and gas to get there) try telling a racer that he needs to ditch the old transponders and see what they say. Personally I want no part of buying new transponders that may or may not work at a big race or national.
I think that any new system will need the following 3 things to be accepted.
1) Inexpensive decoder box - inexpensive meaning less than half the cost of AMB. Existing clubs and shops don't need another huge investment if they want to switch
2) The new system must be able to read existing AMB transponders so that people don't have to shell out even more cash. House transponders would still work eliminating that expense for existing tracks that want to switch.
3) The new transponders don't need to be compatable with AMB but the numbers can't conflict (perhaps adding the letters MRT at the end for instance)
07-11-2008, 07:22 AM
#66
At our parking lot track this Summer, which is I-Lap based, no other racers have any issues either buying an I-Lap transponder or just using an I-Lap track house transponder. A personal I-Lap is about the cost of a set of tires.....
07-11-2008, 08:33 AM
#67
That's the point, there are a lot of people that would rather spend their money on a set of tires than another transponder.
Perhaps I'm a little oldschool because I make it to several tracks each year. I can tell you that I would avoid a track if it ment that I had to pay an extra $40 just to race there once or twice a year. The cost of gas is bad enough without adding to it.
$40 is 2 sets of 12th tires by the way. About a month of club racing unless you're running mod.
Perhaps I'm a little oldschool because I make it to several tracks each year. I can tell you that I would avoid a track if it ment that I had to pay an extra $40 just to race there once or twice a year. The cost of gas is bad enough without adding to it.
$40 is 2 sets of 12th tires by the way. About a month of club racing unless you're running mod.
07-11-2008, 09:44 AM
#68
A few things.....
Correct me if I'm wrong but AMB isn't RF. Also, how can you absolutely know that I-LapRC is problematic with Nitro? I've never heard one problem from anyone running races using I-LapRC where nitro makes any difference or causes any problems. Why would nitro be problematic? Do you race nitro vehicles somewhere that uses I-LapRC and have seen problems first hand?
Correct me if I'm wrong but AMB isn't RF. Also, how can you absolutely know that I-LapRC is problematic with Nitro? I've never heard one problem from anyone running races using I-LapRC where nitro makes any difference or causes any problems. Why would nitro be problematic? Do you race nitro vehicles somewhere that uses I-LapRC and have seen problems first hand?
Common sense tells me that Nitro fuel residue and mud don't make for a good environment to an exposed transponder. In on-road it probably isn't as much of an issue, but in off-road I would think that LOS issues can occur based on mud getting on the cars, or fuel/exhaust getting on the transponder since it's not in a protected box.
There is one overlooked technology that many of us already have in place that can easily accomplish this function though. That's 2.4Ghz technology. Spektrum, Nomadio, etc. all have created a lap counting system for a single car to use. Now all that is needed is to expand that technology to count every car that crosses the loop, make it compatible with every time of 2.4Ghz receiver, and send it to a computer for some timing software to process into race results. Of course this isn't a perfect solution either, as many drivers are still on frequencies, include many sponsored drivers.
But it is one overlooked method that may have some promise down the road. And if we could possibly get one of the Radio manufacturers to release a timing system it would be a viable business solution as its not their only means of income.
Paul
07-11-2008, 02:36 PM
#69
07-11-2008, 02:55 PM
#70
magnetic induction?
So the AMB system is an overpriced metal detector? I always assume RF with some kinda of ping
So the AMB system is an overpriced metal detector? I always assume RF with some kinda of ping
07-11-2008, 03:00 PM
#71
something i posed on the Tekin Boards
The RX and PTX needs to be combined into one unit.
No worries about trying to route a wire to the RX.
The RX and PTX needs to be combined into one unit.
No worries about trying to route a wire to the RX.
07-11-2008, 03:20 PM
#72
We almost had that at one point. KO was working on a system that detected radio frequency so your channel was your transponder. The idea was great but didn't work well enough for 75mhz..
07-11-2008, 06:22 PM
#73
When you look at a product like the AMB personal transponder and a product like the Spektrum 3500 RX most of the product is casing. Adding a riser board with the transponder built into the RX would not affect RX case size, just the total weight by 3 or 4 grams.
AMB and Horizion have their head so far in the clouds they have no real conception who they are marketing. They just know they have enough sales to pay the big wigs.
If Spektrum technology would have been licensed out to other radio manufacutures. The concept of modulals would only re relevant to radios with FM not 2.4ghz DSM. Spektrum would own the market for RX's and make $20 a pop for every radio TX equiped with built in Spektrum. Since they didn't licensed the technology out, now thier compeition in radios are developing DSM instead of paying them for DSM. In addition there were no promotional offers for Spektrum RX's with the purchase of a kit from hobby shops. I would have enjoyed a $20 off RX coupon for buying my Kit at the local hobby shop instead I saved the same $20 in taxes by going online to buy the kit and RX.
AMB and Horizion have their head so far in the clouds they have no real conception who they are marketing. They just know they have enough sales to pay the big wigs.
If Spektrum technology would have been licensed out to other radio manufacutures. The concept of modulals would only re relevant to radios with FM not 2.4ghz DSM. Spektrum would own the market for RX's and make $20 a pop for every radio TX equiped with built in Spektrum. Since they didn't licensed the technology out, now thier compeition in radios are developing DSM instead of paying them for DSM. In addition there were no promotional offers for Spektrum RX's with the purchase of a kit from hobby shops. I would have enjoyed a $20 off RX coupon for buying my Kit at the local hobby shop instead I saved the same $20 in taxes by going online to buy the kit and RX.
07-12-2008, 08:21 AM
#74
That's the point, there are a lot of people that would rather spend their money on a set of tires than another transponder.
Perhaps I'm a little oldschool because I make it to several tracks each year. I can tell you that I would avoid a track if it ment that I had to pay an extra $40 just to race there once or twice a year. The cost of gas is bad enough without adding to it.
$40 is 2 sets of 12th tires by the way. About a month of club racing unless you're running mod.
Perhaps I'm a little oldschool because I make it to several tracks each year. I can tell you that I would avoid a track if it ment that I had to pay an extra $40 just to race there once or twice a year. The cost of gas is bad enough without adding to it.
$40 is 2 sets of 12th tires by the way. About a month of club racing unless you're running mod.
You can economically run a club track or start a track for a hobby shop with this system, and still have house transponders that require no charging
07-12-2008, 08:42 AM
#75
Tech Rookie
What software does it take to run I-Laps on?