Jack The Gripper vs. Paragon!!
05-21-2003, 08:16 AM
#61
Many points stated are agreed upon. And i wish it was as simple as going to offroad. Believe me, my son understands "sucking it up" and moving on to things he can do. His allergies are so severe, he cant even have cheese or cheese byproducts. The yellow "cheese dust" off of a Dorito placed on his lips can cause a trip to the hospital. My daughter is severely allergic to FD&C Red dye 33. It is placed in alot of hair products for "color". They are not "bubblekids", and i am sure there are some a lot worse off than my own. But it is sad to watch them lose out on so many things that we as adults... or even other kids, take for granted. I guess my point of view would lead to a track that was directed to kids and parents coming together to spend time doing something they can enjoy. Not a true racers habitat in many ways. This hobby has so many skills to learn, for kids to develop, and at the same time, lets us "square" dads look cool too! 
Again, alot of great points on this discussion. Its just sad it wont make any overall difference to the larger picture.
- Dave
Again, alot of great points on this discussion. Its just sad it wont make any overall difference to the larger picture.- Dave
05-21-2003, 08:38 AM
#62
Ian-I was going to say something about how Paragon probably didnt linger because of the holes in the building, but I didnt want to be rude-hahahaha!!! Glad you said it-not me!!
Our tracks carpet is laying as flat as can be now. We also filled the entire track between the permimeter boards with carpet!!! Even between the poles. 30++ hours of work and 3 to 5 guys makes a bif difference!!! But it aint no tongue and groove underlayment thats for sure.
I am glad your coming up regardless of what Traction compound we choose and I can tell you now-it will NOT BE TQ products. They ruin carpet if you ask me. And during the Champs Warm-up-I'd say probably it will be 70/30 between Paragon and Jack users at our track. That should make it a lot more bearable in there!!!
Our tracks carpet is laying as flat as can be now. We also filled the entire track between the permimeter boards with carpet!!! Even between the poles. 30++ hours of work and 3 to 5 guys makes a bif difference!!! But it aint no tongue and groove underlayment thats for sure.
I am glad your coming up regardless of what Traction compound we choose and I can tell you now-it will NOT BE TQ products. They ruin carpet if you ask me. And during the Champs Warm-up-I'd say probably it will be 70/30 between Paragon and Jack users at our track. That should make it a lot more bearable in there!!!
05-21-2003, 09:25 AM
#63
Only a few comments -
1. Wintergreen is the primary active ingredient in most of the WG based compounds. We received a shipment of Zip3 a while back that did not have any, or a very small percentage of the usual, amount of WG and it had virtually zero effect on the tires. The next shipment was normal and our grip was back to normal as well.
2. The primary ingredients in Paragon are WG and Turpentine, believe it or not.
3. Wintergreen oil (methyl salicylate) is listed as a toxic substance on a LOT of lists. It is a blood-thinner (like Aspirin, but a LOT more powerful) and can cause contact allergies. It is listed in the FDA (21 CFR part 39) only as a caution (do not swallow or use otherwise than as directed. . .)
I've used sunscreen, Zip 3, Paragon, Simple Green (and if anyone thinks THAT stuff ain't toxic, let me know. . .I'll demo it for ya!
), isopropyl alcohol, iso with some WG oil in it (you can buy WG at most drug stores). I run 1/10th Pan Car and we actually move from Zip to Paragon to sunscreen depending on the grip. We use sunscreen to loosen the car.
I don't know what I would do if we didn't have the option of using a WG based compound. I just don't find the others sufficient for racing on asphalt.
Perhaps that is a primary difference - SoCal is an indoor asphalt track, Revelation is outdoor asphalt. Those are my centers. SoCal reeks of Paragon and WG. Rev reeks of an even more toxic scent - Nitro fumes (woohoooo!) I would love to smell nothing but the wonderful smoggy Southern Cal air.
Hmmmmm, where can we try the Jack stuff?
1. Wintergreen is the primary active ingredient in most of the WG based compounds. We received a shipment of Zip3 a while back that did not have any, or a very small percentage of the usual, amount of WG and it had virtually zero effect on the tires. The next shipment was normal and our grip was back to normal as well.
2. The primary ingredients in Paragon are WG and Turpentine, believe it or not.
3. Wintergreen oil (methyl salicylate) is listed as a toxic substance on a LOT of lists. It is a blood-thinner (like Aspirin, but a LOT more powerful) and can cause contact allergies. It is listed in the FDA (21 CFR part 39) only as a caution (do not swallow or use otherwise than as directed. . .)
I've used sunscreen, Zip 3, Paragon, Simple Green (and if anyone thinks THAT stuff ain't toxic, let me know. . .I'll demo it for ya!
), isopropyl alcohol, iso with some WG oil in it (you can buy WG at most drug stores). I run 1/10th Pan Car and we actually move from Zip to Paragon to sunscreen depending on the grip. We use sunscreen to loosen the car.I don't know what I would do if we didn't have the option of using a WG based compound. I just don't find the others sufficient for racing on asphalt.
Perhaps that is a primary difference - SoCal is an indoor asphalt track, Revelation is outdoor asphalt. Those are my centers. SoCal reeks of Paragon and WG. Rev reeks of an even more toxic scent - Nitro fumes (woohoooo!) I would love to smell nothing but the wonderful smoggy Southern Cal air.
Hmmmmm, where can we try the Jack stuff?
05-21-2003, 10:09 AM
#64
Dave W: Ironically, one of the reasons I got into the hobby, was my own personal respiratory issues. When I was younger I had slight asthma and severe allergies, but nearly as severe as your children's. I wanted to play jr. high football, soccer etc. but after my first year I realized my diminshed lung capacity wouldn't allow me to be competitive. After that I really didn't see the point in trying to play. Like I said, even when I was at my worst, I never had a problem with Paragon. I guess I'm either lucky, or freakishly abnormal LOL! Any way I wasn't trying to sound as harsh as I came off. I just tend to get a little upset when a track specific argument about switching to a single brand of Traction Compound becomes a global assault to ban all such substances. I can in a small way relate to your kids, It's murder being young and not being able to do all the cool stuff kids are supposed to do. If they're lucky the severity of their allergic reactions will diminish over time, like mine did.
05-21-2003, 07:20 PM
#67
Ian, IF YOU BUILD IT THEY WILL COME!!!!!!!!!!
05-22-2003, 12:13 AM
#68
Hi friends. Greetings from Malta.
Let me start by saying that whilst disagreeing with some suggestions and attitudes, I respect them. It's called democracy.
I can't remember who it was that said that control stuff never works. Well, if you look through the records you will find that the on road worlds with the closest results in the last decade were those run with a lousy control tyre and a motor limit of 12 turns. Something like 15 or 20 competitors had won the same number of races and covered the same number of laps over 15 five minute races.
The tyre in question was wierd, to say the least. It wore fast, but it put everyone on an equal playing field. Admittedly, had they all been supplied on the same wheels and with the same inserts it would have been even better. But you know how it is, once someone is quick, people soon find out what insert he is using and everybody is suddenly on the same insert anyway.
And to push the point further, the three most successful forms of RC car racing in the World are the Tamiya, Kyosho and HPI race series. Aren't they all controled. Absolute control in fact, but the racing is cheaper and alot closer. And isn't that what we would all like?
The question of additive just didn't arrise at the touring car worlds in question because there was more grip than everyone wanted, to the extent that people were deliberately running positive camber up front and rock solid springing to avoid grip roll.
No, I am looking at the ban on additives from the health and safety point of view, and let me tell you I am an RC product importer, I have a shop, and I am the president of our countries biggest RC club, so I should be doing my best to promote such things as additives because any such gimicks are always good for business.
Perhaps it's because I'm getting old, but even the smell and noise of nitro cars bugs me these days. It's so much more relaxing to spend a pleasant afternoon with friends, playing with clean, quiet and environmentally friendly electric RC cars. Don't you think?
Regards
Joe from sunny Malta.
Let me start by saying that whilst disagreeing with some suggestions and attitudes, I respect them. It's called democracy.
I can't remember who it was that said that control stuff never works. Well, if you look through the records you will find that the on road worlds with the closest results in the last decade were those run with a lousy control tyre and a motor limit of 12 turns. Something like 15 or 20 competitors had won the same number of races and covered the same number of laps over 15 five minute races.
The tyre in question was wierd, to say the least. It wore fast, but it put everyone on an equal playing field. Admittedly, had they all been supplied on the same wheels and with the same inserts it would have been even better. But you know how it is, once someone is quick, people soon find out what insert he is using and everybody is suddenly on the same insert anyway.
And to push the point further, the three most successful forms of RC car racing in the World are the Tamiya, Kyosho and HPI race series. Aren't they all controled. Absolute control in fact, but the racing is cheaper and alot closer. And isn't that what we would all like?
The question of additive just didn't arrise at the touring car worlds in question because there was more grip than everyone wanted, to the extent that people were deliberately running positive camber up front and rock solid springing to avoid grip roll.
No, I am looking at the ban on additives from the health and safety point of view, and let me tell you I am an RC product importer, I have a shop, and I am the president of our countries biggest RC club, so I should be doing my best to promote such things as additives because any such gimicks are always good for business.
Perhaps it's because I'm getting old, but even the smell and noise of nitro cars bugs me these days. It's so much more relaxing to spend a pleasant afternoon with friends, playing with clean, quiet and environmentally friendly electric RC cars. Don't you think?
Regards
Joe from sunny Malta.
05-22-2003, 06:53 AM
#69
JohnBull: I never stated that "spec racing" doesn't work, I said controlled tire racing doesn't work. The Tamiya, Kyosho and HPI series work because there's really only one or two types of chassis there, so as a manufacturer it's a whole lot easier to pick a tire for the two cars you make, and mandate the inserts participants are allowed to use, and have the cars work. The manufacturer knows their cars inside and out, so they can select a tire that's suitable for the facility and the cars that will be racing in what is essentially a SPEC series.
It will work very well at the worlds, because teams send their drivers 2 weeks early to work on the IDEAL set-up with the control tire, so it's pretty easy then, you just debrief the guys on your team when you get there.
Where it doesn't work is where it really counts...... On the Privateer level. Most of us can't show up at a track a week or so early to practice and get just the right chassis set-up for a set of tires we're just gonna throw in the trash when we get home, because they don't actually work, or if they do work their worn through when we get done with the event. We also can't call the shop and have special parts made and shipped to us that will make the car better on a certain set of tires. Factory drivers have that kind of luxury. And, I won't even get into the fact that it almost doubles the entry fee for a major event. JMHO.
It will work very well at the worlds, because teams send their drivers 2 weeks early to work on the IDEAL set-up with the control tire, so it's pretty easy then, you just debrief the guys on your team when you get there.
Where it doesn't work is where it really counts...... On the Privateer level. Most of us can't show up at a track a week or so early to practice and get just the right chassis set-up for a set of tires we're just gonna throw in the trash when we get home, because they don't actually work, or if they do work their worn through when we get done with the event. We also can't call the shop and have special parts made and shipped to us that will make the car better on a certain set of tires. Factory drivers have that kind of luxury. And, I won't even get into the fact that it almost doubles the entry fee for a major event. JMHO.
05-22-2003, 08:29 AM
#70
I gotta agree with cypress - controlled tires suck. I don't actually know anyone who likes them. I don't know anyone who actually flourishes with them.
One race that was "close" because of the tires (supposedly) was, and is, the American Reedy Race. I attended two of them, the last two at Ripon, and the control tires were a joke, both of them. They just made everyone suck equally and those who had a tire lathe to destroy their rims (to grind them down) and make the tires much lower profile and provide more internal space for cooling (can you believe) did better than the privateers (like myself and the rest) who did not and wasted several sets before we caught on from the Pros. The Motor Limit did more to promote COMPETITION than did the control tires.
Around here, I don't actually hear much about the Tamiya races other than that Tamiya sucks since they won't allow anything but Tamiya at their track. I've never heard of the Kyosho series and HPI only holds a single race in Southern California <edited> and it's run by Hobby People - who DO have the most successful racing series here in Southern California.
But I would put forward that the series aren't what are successful - it's the club races, at least in the US. At SoCal you have a very large turnout nearly every single weekend for club races. Go to Revelation and it's the same thing, many times for multiple nights/days per week. The club racing at Citrus/Corona is outstanding from reports I get from Pops and Redscorp. Year round, week in and week out, it isn't the series that keeps this hobby growing and going, it's the club racing.
So - what is best for club racing?
I would LOVE to do away with compounds - but until I get foam tires for my 1/10thPC that don't need them (for asphalt) I'm stuck with WG . . .
One race that was "close" because of the tires (supposedly) was, and is, the American Reedy Race. I attended two of them, the last two at Ripon, and the control tires were a joke, both of them. They just made everyone suck equally and those who had a tire lathe to destroy their rims (to grind them down) and make the tires much lower profile and provide more internal space for cooling (can you believe) did better than the privateers (like myself and the rest) who did not and wasted several sets before we caught on from the Pros. The Motor Limit did more to promote COMPETITION than did the control tires.
Around here, I don't actually hear much about the Tamiya races other than that Tamiya sucks since they won't allow anything but Tamiya at their track. I've never heard of the Kyosho series and HPI only holds a single race in Southern California <edited> and it's run by Hobby People - who DO have the most successful racing series here in Southern California.
But I would put forward that the series aren't what are successful - it's the club races, at least in the US. At SoCal you have a very large turnout nearly every single weekend for club races. Go to Revelation and it's the same thing, many times for multiple nights/days per week. The club racing at Citrus/Corona is outstanding from reports I get from Pops and Redscorp. Year round, week in and week out, it isn't the series that keeps this hobby growing and going, it's the club racing.
So - what is best for club racing?
I would LOVE to do away with compounds - but until I get foam tires for my 1/10thPC that don't need them (for asphalt) I'm stuck with WG . . .
Last edited by Boomer; 05-22-2003 at 11:44 AM.
05-22-2003, 10:23 AM
#71
HPI holds 3-5 races around the country every year. With both Tamiya and HPI it isn't really a control tire because you can use any of their tires and they both offer several compounds, HPI more than Tamiya.
At my local track it has p[retty much turned into a control tire just because everybody has figured out what works best. If it is cool everybody runs Take Off CS-27's, warm CS 32's, hot CS-36's.
At my local track it has p[retty much turned into a control tire just because everybody has figured out what works best. If it is cool everybody runs Take Off CS-27's, warm CS 32's, hot CS-36's.
05-22-2003, 11:51 AM
#72
Registered User
If you can't put in the time for a big race, why even show up? If I'm going to race a national where controlled tires are being handed out, I'm going to put in as much time as possible to make those tires work. If I can't get 1 week off of work I won't show up for the race. Why even show up if you're going put half the effort in?
Control tires work in my opinion. I've been to a few national events and I've seen car of all types make the a and b mains.
Control tires work in my opinion. I've been to a few national events and I've seen car of all types make the a and b mains.
05-22-2003, 12:20 PM
#73
Mal: You just proved my point. Not everyone can take a whole week off work to go to a race. Hell, if I could I'd show up at the track a month early, but unfortuantely I have real job.
I look at it this way, the two most successful On-Road races on this continent are both NON-controlled tire races. I personally won't run rubber tire races anymore, because controlled tire or not, it's more expensive than racing on foams.
I look at it this way, the two most successful On-Road races on this continent are both NON-controlled tire races. I personally won't run rubber tire races anymore, because controlled tire or not, it's more expensive than racing on foams.
05-22-2003, 07:46 PM
#74
Originally posted by Mal
If you can't put in the time for a big race, why even show up? If I'm going to race a national where controlled tires are being handed out, I'm going to put in as much time as possible to make those tires work. If I can't get 1 week off of work I won't show up for the race. Why even show up if you're going put half the effort in?
Control tires work in my opinion. I've been to a few national events and I've seen car of all types make the a and b mains.
If you can't put in the time for a big race, why even show up? If I'm going to race a national where controlled tires are being handed out, I'm going to put in as much time as possible to make those tires work. If I can't get 1 week off of work I won't show up for the race. Why even show up if you're going put half the effort in?
Control tires work in my opinion. I've been to a few national events and I've seen car of all types make the a and b mains.
But my (and, I think Cypress's) argument was specifically aimed at CLUB racing. That's a different story whatsoever and is related to the tire-sauce argument.
05-23-2003, 12:19 AM
#75
Hi guys. Greetings from Malta.
I am finally starting to understand why we are in disagreement.
Kyosho World Cup. HPI challenge. etc. etc. You haven't heard of them. It appears that most people writing on RC tech only know about what happens in the US and seem to think RC racing is a US exclusive, and is non existant anywhere else in the World, despite the fact that World champions like Masami, Hara, Surikarn, Spashett etc are not Americans by any stretch of the imagination.
The World championship I was refering to was that held in England in 1998, which Pops Losi and Ernie Pavetti - both Americans - openly said were the best event they had ever attended. In fact it was 3 World championships in 3 weeks, and Englishman David Spashett won them all.
Now these were held indoors and contrary to what you are saying about spending weeks beforehand setting up, the track was built on the night before qualifying started for each of the three different disciplines, namely 1/12th, Pro 10, Touring cars, so nobody had any idea about surface, layout, grip or anything.
However this is supposed to be a thread about additives so perhaps we ought to get back on the subject before it degenerates like most threads habitually do.
Let's just say we agree to disagree.
Regards
Joe from sunny Malta.
I am finally starting to understand why we are in disagreement.
Kyosho World Cup. HPI challenge. etc. etc. You haven't heard of them. It appears that most people writing on RC tech only know about what happens in the US and seem to think RC racing is a US exclusive, and is non existant anywhere else in the World, despite the fact that World champions like Masami, Hara, Surikarn, Spashett etc are not Americans by any stretch of the imagination.
The World championship I was refering to was that held in England in 1998, which Pops Losi and Ernie Pavetti - both Americans - openly said were the best event they had ever attended. In fact it was 3 World championships in 3 weeks, and Englishman David Spashett won them all.
Now these were held indoors and contrary to what you are saying about spending weeks beforehand setting up, the track was built on the night before qualifying started for each of the three different disciplines, namely 1/12th, Pro 10, Touring cars, so nobody had any idea about surface, layout, grip or anything.
However this is supposed to be a thread about additives so perhaps we ought to get back on the subject before it degenerates like most threads habitually do.
Let's just say we agree to disagree.
Regards
Joe from sunny Malta.