Associated Factory Team TC5, Brushless, LiPo, Li-ion Nanophosphate, Tips and Tricks
05-18-2009, 11:07 PM
#692
We should have new asphalt this week. Racing nears.
Well now I have made an exhaustive search for TC5 hop ups. All of these have been discussed recently. Manutech kydex bumpers, Diggity design LiPo battery fences or stops, The very fine Tir front spool. Just don't order it directly. I have posted a couple of shops that handle it. The Tir aluminum center shaft is also very nice. So what is left. The car does not really need a lot of hop ups. You can put more aluminum stuff on it, but it won't be better, just shinier.
What is lacking is a really good front drive axle for use with a locked diff. The first touring car company to offer one was Losi with the LCD on the JRXS. I discussed its advantages in the first post on this thread so I shall not do much here.
http://www.rctech.net/forum/electric...s-mip-cvd.html
The advantage is that it is a true constant velocity drive based on the full size car counterpart called the double cardan joint. Until you double that joint or use a splined ball like on our front wheel drive full size car drive axles, you don't get constant velocity. This means constant vibration and pounding of the front axles and diff outdrives when you install that locked front diff. A front ball diff just dissipates all this vibration to the other side.
The TIR spool absorbs a lot of this vibration and wear, but there is still energy and steering traction wasted as well as increased wear at the CVD cup to drive pin joint. Now, How to put these on the TC5?
Recently the X-ray T2 offered similar front axles at an outrageous price of course. They are the right length however at 50 mm; they match the axle length of the TC5. They use a different wheel bearing 10 x 5mm instead of 10 x 6.
X-ray also offers some Hex adapters to fit this new constant velocity (ECD) axle that may solve my still unresolved problem with the associated lightened drive hexes; they tend to destroy the wheel with a locked diff and use of some brakes as they rock back and forth in the wheel. Right now I am using Losi hexes that are shimmed to fit the TC5 axle with a .010 thin metal shim wrapped around the axle.
If you have done either of these two mods. The Xray T2 axle mod or the Losi Hex mod, give us a report. If you don't like to mix brands, well then, I'll just have to fly by on the sweeper or at the 5:45 mark.
I bought mighty expensive X-ray T2 2008, c hubs, steering blocks , steering bushings ($15!) just in case, but a simple bearing change to the TC5 may be all that is needed. I'll post a pic later.
Well now I have made an exhaustive search for TC5 hop ups. All of these have been discussed recently. Manutech kydex bumpers, Diggity design LiPo battery fences or stops, The very fine Tir front spool. Just don't order it directly. I have posted a couple of shops that handle it. The Tir aluminum center shaft is also very nice. So what is left. The car does not really need a lot of hop ups. You can put more aluminum stuff on it, but it won't be better, just shinier.
What is lacking is a really good front drive axle for use with a locked diff. The first touring car company to offer one was Losi with the LCD on the JRXS. I discussed its advantages in the first post on this thread so I shall not do much here.
http://www.rctech.net/forum/electric...s-mip-cvd.html
The advantage is that it is a true constant velocity drive based on the full size car counterpart called the double cardan joint. Until you double that joint or use a splined ball like on our front wheel drive full size car drive axles, you don't get constant velocity. This means constant vibration and pounding of the front axles and diff outdrives when you install that locked front diff. A front ball diff just dissipates all this vibration to the other side.
The TIR spool absorbs a lot of this vibration and wear, but there is still energy and steering traction wasted as well as increased wear at the CVD cup to drive pin joint. Now, How to put these on the TC5?
Recently the X-ray T2 offered similar front axles at an outrageous price of course. They are the right length however at 50 mm; they match the axle length of the TC5. They use a different wheel bearing 10 x 5mm instead of 10 x 6.
X-ray also offers some Hex adapters to fit this new constant velocity (ECD) axle that may solve my still unresolved problem with the associated lightened drive hexes; they tend to destroy the wheel with a locked diff and use of some brakes as they rock back and forth in the wheel. Right now I am using Losi hexes that are shimmed to fit the TC5 axle with a .010 thin metal shim wrapped around the axle.
If you have done either of these two mods. The Xray T2 axle mod or the Losi Hex mod, give us a report. If you don't like to mix brands, well then, I'll just have to fly by on the sweeper or at the 5:45 mark.
I bought mighty expensive X-ray T2 2008, c hubs, steering blocks , steering bushings ($15!) just in case, but a simple bearing change to the TC5 may be all that is needed. I'll post a pic later.
Last edited by John Stranahan; 05-18-2009 at 11:56 PM.
05-18-2009, 11:23 PM
#694
We should have new asphalt this week. Racing nears.
Well now I have made an exhaustive search for TC5 hop ups. All of these have been discussed recently. Manutech kydex bumpers, Diggity design LiPo battery fences or stops, The very fine Tir front spool. Just don't order it directly. I have posted a couple of shops that handle it. The Tir aluminum center shaft is also very nice. So what is left. The car does not really need a lot of hop ups. You can put more aluminum stuff on it, but it won't be better, just shinier.
What is lacking is a really good front drive axle for use with a locked diff. The first touring car company to offer one was Losi with the LCD on the JRXS. I discussed its advantages in the first post on this thread so I shall not do much here.
http://www.rctech.net/forum/electric...mip-cvd-2.html
The advantage is that it is a true constant velocity drive based on the full size car counterpart called the double cardan joint. Until you double that joint or use a splined ball like on our front wheel drive full size car drive axles, you don't get constant velocity. This means constant vibration and pounding of the front axles and diff outdrives when you install that locked front diff. A front ball diff just dissipates all this vibration to the other side.
The TIR spool absorbs a lot of this vibration and wear, but there is still energy and steering traction wasted as well as increased wear at the CVD cup to drive pin joint. Now, How to put these on the TC5?
Recently the X-ray T2 offered similar front axles at an outrageous price of course. They are the right length however at 50 mm; they match the axle length of the TC5. They use a different wheel bearing 10 x 5mm instead of 10 x 6.
X-ray also offers some Hex adapters to fit this new constant velocity (ECD) axle that may solve my still unresolved problem with the associated lightened drive hexes; they tend to destroy the wheel with a locked diff and use of some brakes as they rock back and forth in the wheel. Right now I am using Losi hexes that are shimmed to fit the TC5 axle with a .010 thin metal shim wrapped around the axle.
If you have done either of these two mods. The Xray T2 axle mod or the Losi Hex mod, give us a report. If you don't like to mix brands, well then, I'll just have to fly by on the sweeper or at the 5:45 mark.
I bought mighty expensive X-ray T2 2008, c hubs, steering blocks , steering bushings ($15!) just in case, but a simple bearing change to the TC5 may be all that is needed. I'll post a pic later.
Well now I have made an exhaustive search for TC5 hop ups. All of these have been discussed recently. Manutech kydex bumpers, Diggity design LiPo battery fences or stops, The very fine Tir front spool. Just don't order it directly. I have posted a couple of shops that handle it. The Tir aluminum center shaft is also very nice. So what is left. The car does not really need a lot of hop ups. You can put more aluminum stuff on it, but it won't be better, just shinier.
What is lacking is a really good front drive axle for use with a locked diff. The first touring car company to offer one was Losi with the LCD on the JRXS. I discussed its advantages in the first post on this thread so I shall not do much here.
http://www.rctech.net/forum/electric...mip-cvd-2.html
The advantage is that it is a true constant velocity drive based on the full size car counterpart called the double cardan joint. Until you double that joint or use a splined ball like on our front wheel drive full size car drive axles, you don't get constant velocity. This means constant vibration and pounding of the front axles and diff outdrives when you install that locked front diff. A front ball diff just dissipates all this vibration to the other side.
The TIR spool absorbs a lot of this vibration and wear, but there is still energy and steering traction wasted as well as increased wear at the CVD cup to drive pin joint. Now, How to put these on the TC5?
Recently the X-ray T2 offered similar front axles at an outrageous price of course. They are the right length however at 50 mm; they match the axle length of the TC5. They use a different wheel bearing 10 x 5mm instead of 10 x 6.
X-ray also offers some Hex adapters to fit this new constant velocity (ECD) axle that may solve my still unresolved problem with the associated lightened drive hexes; they tend to destroy the wheel with a locked diff and use of some brakes as they rock back and forth in the wheel. Right now I am using Losi hexes that are shimmed to fit the TC5 axle with a .010 thin metal shim wrapped around the axle.
If you have done either of these two mods. The Xray T2 axle mod or the Losi Hex mod, give us a report. If you don't like to mix brands, well then, I'll just have to fly by on the sweeper or at the 5:45 mark.
I bought mighty expensive X-ray T2 2008, c hubs, steering blocks , steering bushings ($15!) just in case, but a simple bearing change to the TC5 may be all that is needed. I'll post a pic later.
05-18-2009, 11:31 PM
#695
Thanks for the posts. Here is the full list. I am hoping that the plastic parts and bushings will not be needed.
1 x XRAY Pin 2x10 (10) (XRA981210) = $5.49
1 x XRAY T2 Steel Steering Bushing (2+2) (XRA302291) = $15.49
3 x XRAY High Speed Ball Bearing 5x10x4 (Rubber Sealed) (XRA940510) = $11.97
1 x XRAY Composite C-Hub Left 4° Medium Rubber-Spec (T2 008) (XRA302364) = $7.29
2 x XRAY T2 Composite Steering Block (L or R) (XRA302252) = $14.58
2 x XRAY Hudy Spring Steel™ Equalized Cornering Speed (ECS) Drive Shaft (50mm) (XRA305325) = $95.98
1 x XRAY Composite C-Hub Right 4° Medium Rubber-Spec (T2 008) (XRA302363) = $7.29
1 x XRAY Aluminum Wheel Hub - Offset +1.5mm (2) (T2 008) (XRA305353) = $14.49
1 x XRAY Pin 2x10 (10) (XRA981210) = $5.49
1 x XRAY T2 Steel Steering Bushing (2+2) (XRA302291) = $15.49
3 x XRAY High Speed Ball Bearing 5x10x4 (Rubber Sealed) (XRA940510) = $11.97
1 x XRAY Composite C-Hub Left 4° Medium Rubber-Spec (T2 008) (XRA302364) = $7.29
2 x XRAY T2 Composite Steering Block (L or R) (XRA302252) = $14.58
2 x XRAY Hudy Spring Steel™ Equalized Cornering Speed (ECS) Drive Shaft (50mm) (XRA305325) = $95.98
1 x XRAY Composite C-Hub Right 4° Medium Rubber-Spec (T2 008) (XRA302363) = $7.29
1 x XRAY Aluminum Wheel Hub - Offset +1.5mm (2) (T2 008) (XRA305353) = $14.49
05-19-2009, 12:57 AM
#698
Tech Initiate
Hi John,
I'm running with the Losi axles. You just need to open up the original C-hubs, and either use the Losi steering blocks or solve the inch/mm bearing problem.
I tried the Losi steering blocks, but I think the geometry is off. So I went with the difficult solution. I am running with a thin plastic sleeve outside the Losi bearings, to make them fit inside the TC5 steering blocks. You also have to grind a bit in the steering block, as the bearings are wider. The other solution is to use a sleeve on the axle and the TC5 bearings.
I'm also trying to build a dynamic caster front end with parts from 12R5, but I have problems with durability. So no test results yet.
Best,
Peter Knudsen
I'm running with the Losi axles. You just need to open up the original C-hubs, and either use the Losi steering blocks or solve the inch/mm bearing problem.
I tried the Losi steering blocks, but I think the geometry is off. So I went with the difficult solution. I am running with a thin plastic sleeve outside the Losi bearings, to make them fit inside the TC5 steering blocks. You also have to grind a bit in the steering block, as the bearings are wider. The other solution is to use a sleeve on the axle and the TC5 bearings.
I'm also trying to build a dynamic caster front end with parts from 12R5, but I have problems with durability. So no test results yet.
Best,
Peter Knudsen
05-19-2009, 07:27 AM
#699
Peter-Thanks for the report. I used to use losi steering blocks on my TC3 as the upper hole was a better size to tightly hold the ballstud. I did not have a problem with handling change.
I was worried the Losi axles might be too short at the outdrive. I take it this came out OK.
I was worried the Losi axles might be too short at the outdrive. I take it this came out OK.
05-21-2009, 10:27 AM
#700
My Xray ECD's are in.
These are true constant velocity axles at least on the outboard end. The axle angle at the diff outdrive should also be minimized by setting your diff heights.
From first inspection: It looks like a good way to do this mod is with the X-ray parts listed above. In addition you will need two 2.5 mm socket head capscrews to compress the hex drive adapter. They come without screws. I chose the thickest adapter as my car is a little narrow in the front. Previously I spaced out the inner A-arms to accomplish a 190 mm width but crash resistance is made worse. The only mod needed is about .020 inch of polishing to reduce the width of the C hub where it mates with the Stock Associated front arm. Also a clearance sanding will need to be made at the inboard bottom edge of the C-hub so it will fold completely into the arm. You can see in the photo it is tilted just a little.
These X-Ray ECD drive axles are slimmer than Losi LCD's. They would not require much plastic to be removed from the Associated C-hub. I believe at this point that a change to 1 mm narrower, 3 mm width (x 5mm ID x 10mm OD)
http://bocabearings.com/main1.aspx?p...5CN-2YS/W3_NB2
Would let these axles fit the Associated steering block or knuckle without many mods. Then you could use all the associated plastics and bushings. The hub does not come with a between the wheel bearing spacer. I like these with 1/16 inch pins. The X-ray pin is a stouter 2 mm compared to our 1/16 inch pin, though. A custom spacer should not be needed.
These axles are very nicely made pieces. There is apparently some hand work involved in fitting them together. The connecting tube is lightened and slimmed as it goes inboard. This small ID allows the C hubs to have more material and remain strong.
Now maybe the only performance benefit will be the drivers wallet is lighter.
I do think that improvements in wear and lower maintenance will make the pieces worth while. There should be lower drive friction.
Be sure and dissasemble the factory part to grease and loctite the important areas described on a little sheet that comes with the part.
These are true constant velocity axles at least on the outboard end. The axle angle at the diff outdrive should also be minimized by setting your diff heights.
From first inspection: It looks like a good way to do this mod is with the X-ray parts listed above. In addition you will need two 2.5 mm socket head capscrews to compress the hex drive adapter. They come without screws. I chose the thickest adapter as my car is a little narrow in the front. Previously I spaced out the inner A-arms to accomplish a 190 mm width but crash resistance is made worse. The only mod needed is about .020 inch of polishing to reduce the width of the C hub where it mates with the Stock Associated front arm. Also a clearance sanding will need to be made at the inboard bottom edge of the C-hub so it will fold completely into the arm. You can see in the photo it is tilted just a little.
These X-Ray ECD drive axles are slimmer than Losi LCD's. They would not require much plastic to be removed from the Associated C-hub. I believe at this point that a change to 1 mm narrower, 3 mm width (x 5mm ID x 10mm OD)
http://bocabearings.com/main1.aspx?p...5CN-2YS/W3_NB2
Would let these axles fit the Associated steering block or knuckle without many mods. Then you could use all the associated plastics and bushings. The hub does not come with a between the wheel bearing spacer. I like these with 1/16 inch pins. The X-ray pin is a stouter 2 mm compared to our 1/16 inch pin, though. A custom spacer should not be needed.
These axles are very nicely made pieces. There is apparently some hand work involved in fitting them together. The connecting tube is lightened and slimmed as it goes inboard. This small ID allows the C hubs to have more material and remain strong.
Now maybe the only performance benefit will be the drivers wallet is lighter.
I do think that improvements in wear and lower maintenance will make the pieces worth while. There should be lower drive friction.Be sure and dissasemble the factory part to grease and loctite the important areas described on a little sheet that comes with the part.
Last edited by John Stranahan; 05-25-2009 at 07:38 AM.
05-21-2009, 02:33 PM
#701
X-ray ECD axles
The mod continues. Things were not so rosy at the inboard end. The dogbone ball is about .020 inch bigger on its OD than the drive cups ID. I am using the TIR spool with plastic outdrives. A similar condition exists with the Associated Aluminum parts. I decided that removing .010 inch of material from the inside of the outdrives would not significantly weaken my plastic drives as they are also strengthened by aluminum sleeves. These are the tools I used. I wrapped a sand paper strip on a 1/8 inch brass rod to make a flapper. I narrowed the strip so the hole would not be tapered. This will remove slightly more material near the slots but that is the way the X-ray part is lightened so this is OK. Open the hole up until the ball slides all the way in and bottoms without much friction. It will wear in quickly so don't go overboard. Then the pins are too long to fit in the sleeve. First grind them down. I used the drum sander while they were in the drive cups so the ends would be even. Then I touched them up to a slip fit in the Aluminum sleeves.
There are two problems that result from the use of the locked diff. One is vibration wear that shows at the drive cup and CVD pins. The ECD's should cure this. A second is part breakage when you stuff the car and stop the driveline suddenly with a front wheel. All the driveline inertia is transferred to that one wheel and drive axle. Either the drive cup breaks (Losi) The axle or spool breaks (Associated) or maybe none of the above with my hybrid. Extreme wrecks will break that plastic drive cup on the TIR spool; replacements cups are inexpensive.
A couple more areas to check.
The mod continues. Things were not so rosy at the inboard end. The dogbone ball is about .020 inch bigger on its OD than the drive cups ID. I am using the TIR spool with plastic outdrives. A similar condition exists with the Associated Aluminum parts. I decided that removing .010 inch of material from the inside of the outdrives would not significantly weaken my plastic drives as they are also strengthened by aluminum sleeves. These are the tools I used. I wrapped a sand paper strip on a 1/8 inch brass rod to make a flapper. I narrowed the strip so the hole would not be tapered. This will remove slightly more material near the slots but that is the way the X-ray part is lightened so this is OK. Open the hole up until the ball slides all the way in and bottoms without much friction. It will wear in quickly so don't go overboard. Then the pins are too long to fit in the sleeve. First grind them down. I used the drum sander while they were in the drive cups so the ends would be even. Then I touched them up to a slip fit in the Aluminum sleeves.
There are two problems that result from the use of the locked diff. One is vibration wear that shows at the drive cup and CVD pins. The ECD's should cure this. A second is part breakage when you stuff the car and stop the driveline suddenly with a front wheel. All the driveline inertia is transferred to that one wheel and drive axle. Either the drive cup breaks (Losi) The axle or spool breaks (Associated) or maybe none of the above with my hybrid. Extreme wrecks will break that plastic drive cup on the TIR spool; replacements cups are inexpensive.
A couple more areas to check.
05-21-2009, 05:23 PM
#702
X-ray ECD axle Install complete
The installation is finished. I am pleased. Test to come. You can see the tiny Hudy Spring Steel letters in the photo. This install also solved my problem of the narrow hexes stripping out my front wheels. I have a good broad hex to fully support the wheel. I spun that puppy up to full speed with the 3.5 motor and turned the wheels back and forth. Vibration free. The ECD will also loosen up with use. They were a little tight from excess loctite even though I just rolled the setscrews in a small thin puddle of loctite.
The X-ray T2 outer hinge pin is larger than the Associated. What I did was use a longer screw in the T2 set screw location to tighten really hard on the pin. This locates the C hub well. You could also re drill the associated arms for the larger T2 pin if you have the pin in hand. The back of the c-hub needed to have clearance cuts in the A-arm. This was easy with a zip bit for tile. There was plenty of material.
I think a more streamlined install will result by using narrow bearings (part number above) to do the install on Associated hubs and c-hubs. The outdrive mods will still be necessary.
The installation is finished. I am pleased. Test to come. You can see the tiny Hudy Spring Steel letters in the photo. This install also solved my problem of the narrow hexes stripping out my front wheels. I have a good broad hex to fully support the wheel. I spun that puppy up to full speed with the 3.5 motor and turned the wheels back and forth. Vibration free. The ECD will also loosen up with use. They were a little tight from excess loctite even though I just rolled the setscrews in a small thin puddle of loctite.
The X-ray T2 outer hinge pin is larger than the Associated. What I did was use a longer screw in the T2 set screw location to tighten really hard on the pin. This locates the C hub well. You could also re drill the associated arms for the larger T2 pin if you have the pin in hand. The back of the c-hub needed to have clearance cuts in the A-arm. This was easy with a zip bit for tile. There was plenty of material.
I think a more streamlined install will result by using narrow bearings (part number above) to do the install on Associated hubs and c-hubs. The outdrive mods will still be necessary.
Last edited by John Stranahan; 05-25-2009 at 07:41 AM.
05-25-2009, 12:29 AM
#703
Tech Adept
Hi John, have you started playing around with heatsink/fan combos for your motor yet? I was looking for one in pics, but haven't seen one.
05-25-2009, 07:31 AM
#704
blue eagle- I have not had the need so far to mount a motor fan. I have looked at them extensively. This one from integy looks nice, but I have not bought one to try. I have experimented with liquid cooling. A simple cloth or felt wrap followed by a cap of rubbing alcohol. This cools very effectively, but you loose track of the inner motor temperature as the case where you can measure is quite cool. I ended up frying a motor. Since then I have run without cooling apparatus by just gearing the motor appropriately and rolling on the throttle smoothly in the touring car. We have tacked on an extra minute to 6 minutes now so this is a new challenge. I have selected The new NOVAK ballistic series 3.5 motor that has less maximum power, but more low RPM power and efficiency than older models. It should give me the punch I need without quite as much heat developed. The asphalt is torn up right now so I await a track to test on.
06-02-2009, 03:19 AM
#705
Hi John,
First I'd like to say that this thread has been a great help to me since starting up again this year with my TC5, must have read it about 3 times through for hidden gems.
I have one question though, since I can see the reasoning behind most setup aspects. My question is, what do you look for when you set your roll centres? Conventional knowledge seems to tell me that I should just lower it is far as it will go and be done with it, and I just can't see the trade-off (where grip is sufficiently low to avoid traction rolling). I could understand if you set it lower in the front compared to the back, to provide stability. Most setups I look into have roll centres that seem to be somewhere in the middle of the possible settings.
Another thing that I wondered is that in the standard drawings for calculating roll centre, the instant centre is on the other side of the car (i.e the lines intersect on the opposite side of the car than the camber link and wishbone), however with a horizontal camber link and inward sloping wishbone (as seems to be reasonable on the TC5) would have the instant centre on the same side as the wishbone, but further out. Is this a problem? Your Excel sheet would still give you an answer for the roll centre height, but is it valid? Confusing. Reminds me of ray optics with false images, that confused me too.
Thanks in advance.
Neal
First I'd like to say that this thread has been a great help to me since starting up again this year with my TC5, must have read it about 3 times through for hidden gems.
I have one question though, since I can see the reasoning behind most setup aspects. My question is, what do you look for when you set your roll centres? Conventional knowledge seems to tell me that I should just lower it is far as it will go and be done with it, and I just can't see the trade-off (where grip is sufficiently low to avoid traction rolling). I could understand if you set it lower in the front compared to the back, to provide stability. Most setups I look into have roll centres that seem to be somewhere in the middle of the possible settings.
Another thing that I wondered is that in the standard drawings for calculating roll centre, the instant centre is on the other side of the car (i.e the lines intersect on the opposite side of the car than the camber link and wishbone), however with a horizontal camber link and inward sloping wishbone (as seems to be reasonable on the TC5) would have the instant centre on the same side as the wishbone, but further out. Is this a problem? Your Excel sheet would still give you an answer for the roll centre height, but is it valid? Confusing. Reminds me of ray optics with false images, that confused me too.
Thanks in advance.
Neal