so much for "not equivalent" voltages between nimh/lipo
12-02-2006, 09:37 PM
#16
so if the lipo manufacturers marked their cells at 3.6v per cell, would that be equivalent? they can rate them at whatever they want to, just like nimh manufacturers.
12-02-2006, 11:04 PM
#19
Originally Posted by C_O_jones
Heres a question for ya:
If both ROAR and IFMR rules state that the batts are 1.2 volts,
Why are all the new batts over 1.2V, they are 1.2++ ?
I Have 1.239 and have seen 1.247's
Are those not legal? they are over 1.2V
If both ROAR and IFMR rules state that the batts are 1.2 volts,
Why are all the new batts over 1.2V, they are 1.2++ ?
I Have 1.239 and have seen 1.247's
Are those not legal? they are over 1.2V
12-02-2006, 11:15 PM
#20
Tech Fanatic
In no particular order...
The rule is 1.2v NOMINAL - NOMINAL; in name only; performing within acceptable limits - not 1.2v ACTUAL. Three years ago a 1.2v cell would give 1.17 actual, and now it gives 1.24 actual, but the nominal value derived through characteristics of the Physics is still 1.2v.
The rule is the rule, so why is anyone complaining? If you want the rule changed, then write to ROAR - your local Rep and the President, I assume - in your thousands and get it changed. Belly-aching on here ain't gonna get the job done.
The safety issues are real, but if you want to ignore them go right ahead. Unless, of course, as a ROAR member, you want to go to court too, and have to help with the settlements of the law suites.
The technology is still very young, and it is generally accepted that the LiPo combination is not where we will end up. Also, there are 5v cells on the way. In the next few years those sticking to NiMh will spend less than those trying to keep up on the Li** front. When I see Li** technology in general use in power tools, I'll know its OK and it has settled down enough to be worth buying. Until then...
Biggest no-no of all - when a beginner buys his RTR and turns up at Club, he will find that he now needs to spend $$$$$$s to be in the same race. Their charger and cells are now useless (their view) and faced with a bill as big as the RTR, or second-hand car, they have already bought, they go elsewhere. We need new drivers all the time, will this get more of them?
Look at brushless, the future - so far there have been two generations of motor, and three generations of speedo. I've spent nothing on my brushed motors this season, friends have spent $$100s to keep up on brushless. And do you think they are going to do the same with LiPo? Once bitten...
Yes, one day Li** will be here, and it is already here in 12th for receiver packs. But that isn't today, because there are too many issues we can't resolve at this time.
The rule is 1.2v NOMINAL - NOMINAL; in name only; performing within acceptable limits - not 1.2v ACTUAL. Three years ago a 1.2v cell would give 1.17 actual, and now it gives 1.24 actual, but the nominal value derived through characteristics of the Physics is still 1.2v.
The rule is the rule, so why is anyone complaining? If you want the rule changed, then write to ROAR - your local Rep and the President, I assume - in your thousands and get it changed. Belly-aching on here ain't gonna get the job done.
The safety issues are real, but if you want to ignore them go right ahead. Unless, of course, as a ROAR member, you want to go to court too, and have to help with the settlements of the law suites.
The technology is still very young, and it is generally accepted that the LiPo combination is not where we will end up. Also, there are 5v cells on the way. In the next few years those sticking to NiMh will spend less than those trying to keep up on the Li** front. When I see Li** technology in general use in power tools, I'll know its OK and it has settled down enough to be worth buying. Until then...
Biggest no-no of all - when a beginner buys his RTR and turns up at Club, he will find that he now needs to spend $$$$$$s to be in the same race. Their charger and cells are now useless (their view) and faced with a bill as big as the RTR, or second-hand car, they have already bought, they go elsewhere. We need new drivers all the time, will this get more of them?
Look at brushless, the future - so far there have been two generations of motor, and three generations of speedo. I've spent nothing on my brushed motors this season, friends have spent $$100s to keep up on brushless. And do you think they are going to do the same with LiPo? Once bitten...
Yes, one day Li** will be here, and it is already here in 12th for receiver packs. But that isn't today, because there are too many issues we can't resolve at this time.
12-03-2006, 08:23 AM
#21
CO jones
Yes, I only had that 3800 available to test and I thought it was a good thing because a newer better taken care of 4200 would (I believe) blow away a lipo. So the 1 yr old nimh and the 2-3 month old lipo was an equalizer in favor of the lipo.
Companies like peak/orion took care to make their batts fit in most stick pack and 6 cell side by side cars. Other lipos just happen to fit too.
So if most cars can fit some lipos, and lipos don't have a huge advantage in performance (if you take other measures like weights), so that the cars that don't fit lipos can use good nimhs, then why not allow lipos?
Are there a set of rules being developed for lipo or other chemistry cells?
Yes, I only had that 3800 available to test and I thought it was a good thing because a newer better taken care of 4200 would (I believe) blow away a lipo. So the 1 yr old nimh and the 2-3 month old lipo was an equalizer in favor of the lipo.
Companies like peak/orion took care to make their batts fit in most stick pack and 6 cell side by side cars. Other lipos just happen to fit too.
So if most cars can fit some lipos, and lipos don't have a huge advantage in performance (if you take other measures like weights), so that the cars that don't fit lipos can use good nimhs, then why not allow lipos?
Are there a set of rules being developed for lipo or other chemistry cells?
12-03-2006, 09:13 AM
#22
Originally Posted by SlowerOne
Yes, one day Li** will be here, and it is already here in 12th for receiver packs. But that isn't today, because there are too many issues we can't resolve at this time.
I guess by "issues" you mean they run longer, run faster, have a longer lifespan, require less maintenance, require less sophisticated (cheaper) chargers, and require no dischargers or trays?
It sounds like Lipos really suck.
Maybe you are talking about the safety issues? But I doubt it since I have read about and seen in person more about personal injuries as a result of NiMH malfunction.
12-03-2006, 10:05 AM
#23
A rule change would be so easy, why not just change from the standard 1.2v nominal per cell, to nominal pack voltage. Make it 7.4v nominal for both Lipo and NiMh per PACK. I agree they newest 4200's hold there own against the current lipo technology, keep a minimum weight rule in place and race them together. I do run both types of batteries, and dont want to force anyone to have to buy a lipo if they dont want to, or cant afford it, but make it acceptible for racers to choose there power and just go run. Splitting up the classes is not what we need, there are already to many classes.
12-03-2006, 10:30 AM
#24
How many tracks follow ROAR rules to the letter? Few if any. How many big ROAR races are there in a year. Two? Also, anyone who attended the Champs saw or heard about 4200's exploding in at least one car. I say its high time LiPo and BL become the main technology in racing.
12-03-2006, 11:03 AM
#25
Originally Posted by Stealth_RT
How many tracks follow ROAR rules to the letter? Few if any. How many big ROAR races are there in a year. Two? Also, anyone who attended the Champs saw or heard about 4200's exploding in at least one car. I say its high time LiPo and BL become the main technology in racing.
12-03-2006, 11:05 AM
#26
Originally Posted by dakrat
umm.. all races ive been to follow roar rules...including club races
12-03-2006, 11:36 AM
#27
ROAR didn't say anything about the discharge voltage... the ROAR and IFMAR rules states 1.2 volt per cell. Read the label on a sub C cell... it states 1.2 volts. A lipo is 3.7 volts. This is what they mean "voltage is not equivalent"
12-03-2006, 12:04 PM
#28
I have only one issue with the Lipo batteries and NiMH running together as long as minimum weight is made. I run a T2 in stock and 19T. With a 4200 pack it is about 25 grams heavy on the battery side and about 40 grams above the legal minmum ready to race. Racers with Lipo equiped cars can correctly balance their cars and still be at the legal minimum. All other things being equal, this is a significant advantage. When the rules change and/or the majority at my track VOTE to use Lipos, AND when I don't have to charge them in a "bunker" I'll switch. Quickly.
12-03-2006, 12:07 PM
#29
Technically that's could be argument for lipo users against IB4200 users. Current IB4200 have nominal voltage above 1.2Volts. Even Maxamps.com is selling super loose cells ( unmatched I guess ) like 1.27Volts. These super cells are IB4200 WCE. Lets count 1.27V x 6 = 7.62 Volts. On the other hand, lipo is still 7.4 Volts. So why we cannot use lipo for legal racing ?
When newbies decided to get serious into this hobby, they don't have to buy super chargers and dischargers like GFX , Pro-Trac and CTX-D, etc. I've seen some people bring 2 GFX and 2 CTX-D.
When newbies decided to get serious into this hobby, they don't have to buy super chargers and dischargers like GFX , Pro-Trac and CTX-D, etc. I've seen some people bring 2 GFX and 2 CTX-D.
12-03-2006, 01:05 PM
#30
As I read what most of you who support lipos have written, and think about it,
I see a few options. I own both BL and brushed motors to race and Lipo and NIMH's as well. My fastest setup(in the stack TC class) is my brushed motor and IB 4200. That being said, my favorite setup is the 13.5 and lipo. I can gear it setup my car and kick back. I run two different tracks in my area, and one allows four or more drivers to start a class, and we have. The other allows BL and lipo and has more drivers, more new drivers, and tougher competition.( which I love) We have a couple of choices as I see it. Contacting the governing bodies in force, and ask for change. My question there is, will they listen to us? I'm not a roar member, and have no real desire to become one. I don't believe they have the best interest of the overall sport in mind. So with that said, my next option is to find places to race that allow the use of the new technology, and choose to support those places with my wallet. It will cost me more $ to do this because of the distance to drive(55 miles one way) but it's worth it to me to support the tracks that will support change. My two cents worth
I see a few options. I own both BL and brushed motors to race and Lipo and NIMH's as well. My fastest setup(in the stack TC class) is my brushed motor and IB 4200. That being said, my favorite setup is the 13.5 and lipo. I can gear it setup my car and kick back. I run two different tracks in my area, and one allows four or more drivers to start a class, and we have. The other allows BL and lipo and has more drivers, more new drivers, and tougher competition.( which I love) We have a couple of choices as I see it. Contacting the governing bodies in force, and ask for change. My question there is, will they listen to us? I'm not a roar member, and have no real desire to become one. I don't believe they have the best interest of the overall sport in mind. So with that said, my next option is to find places to race that allow the use of the new technology, and choose to support those places with my wallet. It will cost me more $ to do this because of the distance to drive(55 miles one way) but it's worth it to me to support the tracks that will support change. My two cents worth