Why cant foams be run on asphalt with electric?
11-16-2006, 03:30 PM
#16
I had never raced foam touring until the IIC, and had not raced 1/12 on foam for nearly 12 years. I dreaded the thought of racing in foam again. Truing tires, chunking tires, one run cuts, exotic team compounds nobody else could get, etc.
The IIC opened my eyes.
It was much worse than I had remembered. I can't, for the life of me, figure out why foam tires are so popular. They are faster which in this context is not good. Who cares if you are .6 seconds per lap faster when you can really only run your tires once if you are lucky and they don't check or peel during the first run.
To me, rubber tires are what making touring cars what they are. If you want to simply go faster, and experience the "positives" of foam tires, race 1/12. They are half the price, far less complicated, and the races are longer. There is no point ruining (in my opinion) TC with foam tires on asphalt.
The IIC opened my eyes.
It was much worse than I had remembered. I can't, for the life of me, figure out why foam tires are so popular. They are faster which in this context is not good. Who cares if you are .6 seconds per lap faster when you can really only run your tires once if you are lucky and they don't check or peel during the first run.
To me, rubber tires are what making touring cars what they are. If you want to simply go faster, and experience the "positives" of foam tires, race 1/12. They are half the price, far less complicated, and the races are longer. There is no point ruining (in my opinion) TC with foam tires on asphalt.
11-16-2006, 03:42 PM
#18
Originally Posted by Francis M.
i think electric guys have it backwards. We should be running rubber tires on carpet and foams on asphalt. lol
Rick What kind on tire wear did you encounter at the 1/10 fuel nats at crystal park?
Rick What kind on tire wear did you encounter at the 1/10 fuel nats at crystal park?
Fragmentation is not good. It would be nice to move back towards what made TC popular in the first place - realism.
That was my first gas TC race, so I did not really check actual wear totals. But I sized my tires so that I could get 2 qualifiers out of them and then sized my main tires so they were big enough not to have to change.
11-16-2006, 03:44 PM
#19
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but from a historical perspective, touring cars started out as rubber tires only on all surfaces (even carpet). Racing with foam tires on carpet came after (and apparently mostly in the U.S.). So I guess asphalt racing has stuck "closer to its roots," for whatever reason. Personally I've run both rubber and foam on both carpet and asphalt. For whatever reason, I prefer running rubber on all surfaces. Just my opinion. Guess I just like how the car drives better on rubber tires.
11-16-2006, 03:50 PM
#20
In New Zealand we have raced foam tires at all levels for many years now in electric outdoors.
I have done some big rubber tire races overseas and I can honestly say that foam tires are faster, cheaper and last alot longer.
It is also so much easier as you only have a few compounds to realistically choose from, you don't have to worry about inserts etc.
I can see where Rick is coming from on carpet but outdoors it is a different story.
I run the tire from about 62mm down to about 57 or 58mm and then use them at our indoor racing. So I can sometimes get maybe 15-20 runs out of one set of tires, depending on the compound. (you must note that traction additives is not allowed at any level of competition here in New Zealand)
I honestly cannot understand why it is not done in more places around the world.
I have done some big rubber tire races overseas and I can honestly say that foam tires are faster, cheaper and last alot longer.
It is also so much easier as you only have a few compounds to realistically choose from, you don't have to worry about inserts etc.
I can see where Rick is coming from on carpet but outdoors it is a different story.
I run the tire from about 62mm down to about 57 or 58mm and then use them at our indoor racing. So I can sometimes get maybe 15-20 runs out of one set of tires, depending on the compound. (you must note that traction additives is not allowed at any level of competition here in New Zealand)
I honestly cannot understand why it is not done in more places around the world.
11-16-2006, 03:54 PM
#21
Originally Posted by Rick Hohwart
I think parts of what hurts R/C racing, and TC in particular is the fact we have so many different specs for what is essentially the same thing. IT gets worse that we now have 4, 5, and 6 cell, rubber, foam plus all the motor classes. I think next year as we will probably see some races within the U.S. with different cell counts.
Fragmentation is not good. It would be nice to move back towards what made TC popular in the first place - realism.
That was my first gas TC race, so I did not really check actual wear totals. But I sized my tires so that I could get 2 qualifiers out of them and then sized my main tires so they were big enough not to have to change.
Fragmentation is not good. It would be nice to move back towards what made TC popular in the first place - realism.
That was my first gas TC race, so I did not really check actual wear totals. But I sized my tires so that I could get 2 qualifiers out of them and then sized my main tires so they were big enough not to have to change.
Yeah I agree with you on Electric TC being fragmented too much where you have 40 entries for a club race which would make for great racing except there is 6 different classes. lol
11-16-2006, 04:39 PM
#22
Tear wear is pretty bad on asphalt and just like on carpet little tires are faster. Two runs is usually all you get if you true the tires small for best lap time.
The places where Foam is being raced out doors are pretty casual. Once hardcore racers start running foam the fun ends and the racing expenses go up.
Why does the fun end? Becuase as your tires wear (faster than on carpet) all the following happen:
1. You ride height gets lower so to stop scraping you chassis and losing speed you raise the car.
2. When you raise the car you get less static camber so you add static camber.
3. When you raise your car you reduce the droop so you have to reset the droop.
4. When the tires get smaller you your roll out changes so you have to gear up to go the same speed.
5. If you hit the wall or another car you will chunk a tire.
If you run rubber you don't have to worry about any of the above.
FYI, as on of the companies that sells rubber tires in the US I can tell you that this winter we have been flooded with calles from tracks looking to start running more rubber on carpet. Its cheaper, less hassel for racers and with the tires and chasis on the market now you can get plenty of traction.
The places where Foam is being raced out doors are pretty casual. Once hardcore racers start running foam the fun ends and the racing expenses go up.
Why does the fun end? Becuase as your tires wear (faster than on carpet) all the following happen:
1. You ride height gets lower so to stop scraping you chassis and losing speed you raise the car.
2. When you raise the car you get less static camber so you add static camber.
3. When you raise your car you reduce the droop so you have to reset the droop.
4. When the tires get smaller you your roll out changes so you have to gear up to go the same speed.
5. If you hit the wall or another car you will chunk a tire.
If you run rubber you don't have to worry about any of the above.
FYI, as on of the companies that sells rubber tires in the US I can tell you that this winter we have been flooded with calles from tracks looking to start running more rubber on carpet. Its cheaper, less hassel for racers and with the tires and chasis on the market now you can get plenty of traction.
11-16-2006, 05:06 PM
#23
Registered User
Originally Posted by fatbear
In New Zealand we have raced foam tires at all levels for many years now in electric outdoors.
I have done some big rubber tire races overseas and I can honestly say that foam tires are faster, cheaper and last alot longer.
It is also so much easier as you only have a few compounds to realistically choose from, you don't have to worry about inserts etc.
I can see where Rick is coming from on carpet but outdoors it is a different story.
I run the tire from about 62mm down to about 57 or 58mm and then use them at our indoor racing. So I can sometimes get maybe 15-20 runs out of one set of tires, depending on the compound. (you must note that traction additives is not allowed at any level of competition here in New Zealand)
I honestly cannot understand why it is not done in more places around the world.
I have done some big rubber tire races overseas and I can honestly say that foam tires are faster, cheaper and last alot longer.
It is also so much easier as you only have a few compounds to realistically choose from, you don't have to worry about inserts etc.
I can see where Rick is coming from on carpet but outdoors it is a different story.
I run the tire from about 62mm down to about 57 or 58mm and then use them at our indoor racing. So I can sometimes get maybe 15-20 runs out of one set of tires, depending on the compound. (you must note that traction additives is not allowed at any level of competition here in New Zealand)
I honestly cannot understand why it is not done in more places around the world.
Before ROAR switched from rubber tire to foam that's what people were saying. "Foams are a lot cheaper, there are only a few compounts that work". Look what we have today, I'm willing to bet there are at least 8 different compounts of foam that could work on carpet. Then you have the manufacturers that make the same compound a little different.
Foams use to be cheaper, they aren't cheaper than prebuilt tires.
With prebuilt rubber tires you don't have to worry about insert, rim and tire combinations. You don't have to worry about constantly changing ride height, camber, gearing and roll center.
People complain about slight drop in lap times with rubber tires after a few runs. That's highly exaggerated, the drop isn't that substantial. The person who buys a new set after 3-4 runs is very rare too.
11-16-2006, 05:30 PM
#24
The only con that I agree with is what Rick has already stated. Adding foam to asphalt sedan would just add to the already ridicilous ammt of classes electric class.
Adrian 1 run foams is a stretch.
It might be casual for some electric clubs but I'm talking about my expirience from nitro sedan racing. You are right about changing camber settings but most likely will only reset the camber and droop for the main. Especially with the camber settings electric cars use doesn't really have that much camber gain compared to nitro cars.
Foam on asphalt is not the same as Foam is carpet where the smallest diameter is always better.
Adrian 1 run foams is a stretch.
It might be casual for some electric clubs but I'm talking about my expirience from nitro sedan racing. You are right about changing camber settings but most likely will only reset the camber and droop for the main. Especially with the camber settings electric cars use doesn't really have that much camber gain compared to nitro cars.
Foam on asphalt is not the same as Foam is carpet where the smallest diameter is always better.
11-16-2006, 05:37 PM
#25
I'm a supporter of rubber for the simple reason that that I just don't want to spend the $$ and time on foams!
In my experience, the foam tires take just as much work as rubber. Rubber at a club level isn't all that complicated. Down here we either run CS-27's (pretty much all the time..), or 32's if it's stinking hot. Medium inserts.
Chuck them on and them them till they start showing wear at the edge of the sidewall seam. Yeah - they get a bit slower... but that's the difference between a good espresso and the nasty service station version that I had before I got to the track.
Once they're done - give them to a stock racer! LoL!
Foams however chunk: (I'm not totally immune to crashing yet.. so this is a concern for me.), And you need a foam tire truer. Then you have to worry about putting a radius on the tire, and re-doing it to keep the runs consistent. Then re-trueing the tire so that your camber stays the same.
Add the complication of dual compounds and it's not that much different from rubber racing..
The end cost is roughly even for the foams and rubber, as you can re-use your inserts and rim in rubber. But for me at least, the foam adds another level of complication.
I don't race carpet so it's not like like I have any experience to draw on there.
But I do agree with one thing - foams give crazy good grip. On a "clean" track that's been prepared, rubber is the way to go. But on our outdoor dusty tracks, foam is much faster.
I quite like dealing with the dynamics of driving rubber though. Getting them up to temp, and the fact that they go away if you over-drive them.
just my 0.02
In my experience, the foam tires take just as much work as rubber. Rubber at a club level isn't all that complicated. Down here we either run CS-27's (pretty much all the time..), or 32's if it's stinking hot. Medium inserts.
Chuck them on and them them till they start showing wear at the edge of the sidewall seam. Yeah - they get a bit slower... but that's the difference between a good espresso and the nasty service station version that I had before I got to the track.
Once they're done - give them to a stock racer! LoL!
Foams however chunk: (I'm not totally immune to crashing yet.. so this is a concern for me.), And you need a foam tire truer. Then you have to worry about putting a radius on the tire, and re-doing it to keep the runs consistent. Then re-trueing the tire so that your camber stays the same.
Add the complication of dual compounds and it's not that much different from rubber racing..
The end cost is roughly even for the foams and rubber, as you can re-use your inserts and rim in rubber. But for me at least, the foam adds another level of complication.
I don't race carpet so it's not like like I have any experience to draw on there.
But I do agree with one thing - foams give crazy good grip. On a "clean" track that's been prepared, rubber is the way to go. But on our outdoor dusty tracks, foam is much faster.
I quite like dealing with the dynamics of driving rubber though. Getting them up to temp, and the fact that they go away if you over-drive them.
just my 0.02
11-16-2006, 05:38 PM
#26
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Foams on a sedan on asphalt is fun especially in mod. Both Rubber and Foams have their place. Foams on asphalt is cheaper when you run Nitro Foams….they also wear far less then when you use them compared to normal Carpet foams. I like racing rubber tires on asphalt for the realism and the strategy that goes along with that but with foams you don’t need tire warmers or special sauce or a magical insert when not using premounts. Again both have their place some guys like foams some like rubber.
Adrian….running foams on asphalt isn’t any different then racing rubber tires on asphalt the fast guys will ruin a class when they spend money on tires every run. The fast guys will always find a way to take the fun out of any class regardless of what type of tires are used.
Mal….Im not sure where you are buying your Pre-mounts but around here they are from 32 to 36 dollars for a set of 4…. Foam tires for carpet Jaco and Parma are most places like 12.99 a pair…so that’s 26.00 for a set of 4….and Nitro tires are even cheaper yet like 9.00 a pair. When you are talking about carpet on sedan over that last 2 years I think that 99.8% of the time everyone fast is running Magenta/Double Pink and Cyan/Double Pink Orange fronts. Yes there are many different compounds of foams out there but it seems like just 1 type is getting used all the time. There are just as many choices in rubber tires if not more when the insert and rims are factored in, as there are in foams but most rubber tire racing is done in a spec manner….and quite frankly so is foam with everyone on the same compounds almost all the time. If newer tires weren’t any faster then we would all run our tires until the belt shows…and that’s not the case. Again Im not sure where you are racing but if you are in a really competitive area with lots of fast racers then if you want to keep up you are most times going to have to buy new rubber tires after a few runs….they do slow down after each use especially on asphalt.
I agree that there are too many choices but thats the way things are now....the weaker of the group will die off in time and then everyone will be back at one central place. But to mandate one type of tire or what ever over the other isnt going to do anything but piss off the other side.
Adrian….running foams on asphalt isn’t any different then racing rubber tires on asphalt the fast guys will ruin a class when they spend money on tires every run. The fast guys will always find a way to take the fun out of any class regardless of what type of tires are used.
Mal….Im not sure where you are buying your Pre-mounts but around here they are from 32 to 36 dollars for a set of 4…. Foam tires for carpet Jaco and Parma are most places like 12.99 a pair…so that’s 26.00 for a set of 4….and Nitro tires are even cheaper yet like 9.00 a pair. When you are talking about carpet on sedan over that last 2 years I think that 99.8% of the time everyone fast is running Magenta/Double Pink and Cyan/Double Pink Orange fronts. Yes there are many different compounds of foams out there but it seems like just 1 type is getting used all the time. There are just as many choices in rubber tires if not more when the insert and rims are factored in, as there are in foams but most rubber tire racing is done in a spec manner….and quite frankly so is foam with everyone on the same compounds almost all the time. If newer tires weren’t any faster then we would all run our tires until the belt shows…and that’s not the case. Again Im not sure where you are racing but if you are in a really competitive area with lots of fast racers then if you want to keep up you are most times going to have to buy new rubber tires after a few runs….they do slow down after each use especially on asphalt.
I agree that there are too many choices but thats the way things are now....the weaker of the group will die off in time and then everyone will be back at one central place. But to mandate one type of tire or what ever over the other isnt going to do anything but piss off the other side.
11-16-2006, 05:40 PM
#27
When we used to have an outdoor track (parking lot) we would run our foams on carpet until we chunked them. Throw it in a box and save them for the asphalt. We got good use out of them on the carpet and then "recycled" them in the parking lot. The track was kinda bumpy so we couldn't tell the difference in a chunked tire or fresh one. If definitely beat tearing up rubber tires every week. Now we're supposed to get a smooth asphalt track and I can't wait to put on rubber tires and a low turn mod. 
11-16-2006, 05:46 PM
#28
I guess if you race rubber you race rubber. And as far as being more relaxed outdoors, we were racing with 2 consistant A main racers at big events. We all trued our tires down to 58-60mm. However, tire wear was good. I still have the tires, they just did not wear so much.
We have limestone base asphalt up here, not coral base which is probably more common in FLA, and may be harsher on tires. I don't know.
The foams don't react as harshly to temp changes as rubber did for me, and you could run mod without as much "tip toe"-ing, worrying about smoking the tires. I'm not a rubber tire or asphalt racer like i used to be but I liked foam a lot.
We have limestone base asphalt up here, not coral base which is probably more common in FLA, and may be harsher on tires. I don't know.
The foams don't react as harshly to temp changes as rubber did for me, and you could run mod without as much "tip toe"-ing, worrying about smoking the tires. I'm not a rubber tire or asphalt racer like i used to be but I liked foam a lot.
11-16-2006, 05:50 PM
#29
Originally Posted by Francis M.
The only con that I agree with is what Rick has already stated. Adding foam to asphalt sedan would just add to the already ridicilous ammt of classes electric class.
Adrian 1 run foams is a stretch.
It might be casual for some electric clubs but I'm talking about my expirience from nitro sedan racing. You are right about changing camber settings but most likely will only reset the camber and droop for the main. Especially with the camber settings electric cars use doesn't really have that much camber gain compared to nitro cars.
Foam on asphalt is not the same as Foam is carpet where the smallest diameter is always better.
Adrian 1 run foams is a stretch.
It might be casual for some electric clubs but I'm talking about my expirience from nitro sedan racing. You are right about changing camber settings but most likely will only reset the camber and droop for the main. Especially with the camber settings electric cars use doesn't really have that much camber gain compared to nitro cars.
Foam on asphalt is not the same as Foam is carpet where the smallest diameter is always better.
There used to be a lot of Foam asphalt racing in NJ near Trinity. We has some guys running our car there that asked for some setups so we ran a few sets of foam to see what was up.
We found tires that were ~57-58 mm were the fastest. They had the best blend of traction and side bite for fast lap times. If you went bigger you lost corner speed. If you went smaller the car would slide and the tires would really get chewed up. The problem is that you could loose .5-1mm in a 5 min run depending on how abrasive and how much traction the track had.
The foam racing in NJ lasted about a year. The racers there decided to go back to rubber.
11-16-2006, 05:52 PM
#30
Originally Posted by AdrianM
The places where Foam is being raced out doors are pretty casual. Once hardcore racers start running foam the fun ends and the racing expenses go up.
come race with us "casual" asphalt foam racers here in NZ and you will quick smart find out how "casual" it is...........Smallest tyres(foam) are not the fastest here for us on asphalt, I usually start around 60mm and will get 6+ runs out of a set (30-35shore tyres) before they get too twitchy and lose sidebite then they are good for indoor (carpet) for another 6 or so runs.
Bear in mind though that as fatbear said we don't allow any sort of tyre sauce or track treatment which probably helps the life of the tyre.
For us rubber would be a nightmare, we don't have the numbers to make spec tyres work effectively plus it WOULD be more expensive for US.