EFRA decision. 5 cells -1350gr
11-23-2006, 08:52 PM
#316
Originally Posted by Anders Myrberg
So the new 5-cell, or even 4-cell would work for everybody then?
That said, if there are those that feel 5 cell will be faster, then simply "allow" 5 cell and see if there are any takers. If it's faster and people can turn quicker and more consistent lap times, you'll find out soon enough. 5 or 6 cell, at the same weight, pick what you like. It was fine in offroad for many years, 6 or 7 cell. Finally 6 cell won out because the other cars were using 6-cell and it was lighter. THE RACERS WERE OFFERED THE OPTION of doing either, not forced to pick one. The popular method won out. Not because it was easier or cheaper, but because it was lighter, and it made more financial sense, the stock cars were 6 cells. It was a pain to bring different packs. It's what the racers migrated to, all on their own.
VHS won out over Beta, and Beta was the better format... You really never know what's gonna happen.
Let the racers make the decision. The batterys are not the weak part of the equation.
Last edited by Bob-Stormer; 11-23-2006 at 09:41 PM.
11-23-2006, 10:36 PM
#317
Tech Master
Originally Posted by Bob-Stormer
Nope. Although not involved in EFRA, include me in the group that is NOT for making it a class rule.
(Iīll dare a very risky thing here )
Why canīt Americans follow someone else?
11-23-2006, 11:15 PM
#318
Originally Posted by Anders Myrberg
There is one already.
(Iīll dare a very risky thing here )
Why canīt Americans follow someone else?
(Iīll dare a very risky thing here )
Why canīt Americans follow someone else?
11-24-2006, 12:12 AM
#319
Originally Posted by AdrianM
We want to Anders but we have to deal with all these internet experts that have never tried it saying its a bad idea
It's not that most of us aren't interested or willing to look beyond the norm, it's what a few of us believe is a rule for the USA that was not asked for by the majority and could potentially be stuffed down our throats over scenarios that do not effect 99% of the racers in North America. And that the item being changed is not the item that is reportedly failing. And it's reportedly failing at a pitifully small level. As in so small, I think it's fair to say that 99.9% of us were unaware of it or had never heard of it. The issues for a select few in the .01% of racers rarely trickle down that far, nor are they necessarilly believed or even cared about.
As an example, if Hara were to dump 5 seconds early in a national event... would anybody other than Hara really care? Nothing against the guy, I've heard he's a very nice person. That was just an example of a scenario. Should we all be outraged that battery technology had not kept up? NO, because it didn't effect the other 100,000 of us.
If Hara found a useable scenario where if done exactly the same every time would reduce even the most average noobs speed control into a pile of melted goo, then yes, that would be a problem worth looking at. But the average guy, 99.99% of us are not having any problems with our cells that are effecting our lap times or equipment. So why change the cells? We've never had better cells for the average racers... NEVER. It's a great time to be racing electric because of it. 99.99% of us believe we have the batterys necessary to compete.
That is the problem, at least as best I can put it to words or understand it based on the general North American distaste for it.
Hey, if you guys think it's faster, more power to ya. (I think there may be some clever word play in that sentence.)
I'm curious, how many speedos and motors will be "blown up" this weekend by some of the best racers in the world, at Cleveland.
Last edited by Bob-Stormer; 11-24-2006 at 12:25 AM.
11-24-2006, 12:38 AM
#320
"internet expert", part 2.
On this very forum, we have the following.
Forum Stats:
38,610 Members :: 135,223 Threads with 2,766,834 Posts
How many of these posts and threads are about an absolute catostrophic failure of the speedo? there are 2.7 million posts here. How many relating to that?
For this to be an epidemic worth correcting without asking the racers, and simply implementing a rule, how many should there be? Even at a pitiful number like 1 in 1000, that would be 2700 posts on catastrophic failure. Go ahead and count, I'll wait.
135,223 threads. Even an entire thread started on how my SPEEDO EXPLODED, at 1 in 1000, there would need to be 135 of them.
If you can find any at all, how many can actually be attributed to equipment failures, and not user error, or failure due to earlier crash damage?
135,223 threads and 38,000 members. How many of them are wishing we had less power?
Hundreds of new threads a day with up to 1000 people on at the same time with people willing to start a thread over something as simple as "Brand X car ripped me off because it was short a wheel nut.."
if this was a serious problem the forums would be "lit up" with disgust at how many ecs turned to smoke every weekend at their local club meeting. People are willing to quit the sport and post about a $5 track fee, it's not like they would have forgotten to mention a catastophic failure that ruined their racing for the year.
On this very forum, we have the following.
Forum Stats:
38,610 Members :: 135,223 Threads with 2,766,834 Posts
How many of these posts and threads are about an absolute catostrophic failure of the speedo? there are 2.7 million posts here. How many relating to that?
For this to be an epidemic worth correcting without asking the racers, and simply implementing a rule, how many should there be? Even at a pitiful number like 1 in 1000, that would be 2700 posts on catastrophic failure. Go ahead and count, I'll wait.
135,223 threads. Even an entire thread started on how my SPEEDO EXPLODED, at 1 in 1000, there would need to be 135 of them.
If you can find any at all, how many can actually be attributed to equipment failures, and not user error, or failure due to earlier crash damage?
135,223 threads and 38,000 members. How many of them are wishing we had less power?
Hundreds of new threads a day with up to 1000 people on at the same time with people willing to start a thread over something as simple as "Brand X car ripped me off because it was short a wheel nut.."
if this was a serious problem the forums would be "lit up" with disgust at how many ecs turned to smoke every weekend at their local club meeting. People are willing to quit the sport and post about a $5 track fee, it's not like they would have forgotten to mention a catastophic failure that ruined their racing for the year.
11-24-2006, 02:24 AM
#322
Tech Master
Originally Posted by Bob-Stormer
Adrian, don't take any of this personally. I have great respect for Schumacher and you as well. This is a discussion about a potential rule and hobby changing decision for a LOT of people, and shouldn't be taken lightly.
11-24-2006, 03:40 AM
#323
No I don't think so, I think post 320 deserves to be re read.
11-24-2006, 04:12 AM
#324
I think this forum, rctech.net, is not a good reference in order to understand what the market needs.
In this forum the majority who post are from U.S.
The 5 cell is implemented by EFRA, so I don't see why there is an argument about a rule in EUROPE by people in the U.S.
If you believe that U.S. drivers have no problems with their equipment, and the best way to go ahead is to leave things as they are, i.e. 6 cell, then so be it.
In Europe, the racing conditions are completely different. The level of racing is different, the rules are different.
EFRA believed that there was a lot of pressure from European racers to see a change in the rules in order to decrease the occurrence of problems with overheating.
I cannot see how one can have an opinion about a rule that was implemented by a federation in a different continent, where racing takes place under complete different circumstances.
To make an argument based on personal experience, and say you have never seen anyone blow up their equipment, it doesn't necessarily mean that this is the case everywhere. It just shows that at the races you were present; people did not have overheating problems. Now if you were present in races in Europe, and especially Southern Europe and you can still say that you did not see anyone have overheating problems in open modified on an outdoor large track during summer.. then all I can say is that this case is an exception.
In this forum the majority who post are from U.S.
The 5 cell is implemented by EFRA, so I don't see why there is an argument about a rule in EUROPE by people in the U.S.
If you believe that U.S. drivers have no problems with their equipment, and the best way to go ahead is to leave things as they are, i.e. 6 cell, then so be it.
In Europe, the racing conditions are completely different. The level of racing is different, the rules are different.
EFRA believed that there was a lot of pressure from European racers to see a change in the rules in order to decrease the occurrence of problems with overheating.
I cannot see how one can have an opinion about a rule that was implemented by a federation in a different continent, where racing takes place under complete different circumstances.
To make an argument based on personal experience, and say you have never seen anyone blow up their equipment, it doesn't necessarily mean that this is the case everywhere. It just shows that at the races you were present; people did not have overheating problems. Now if you were present in races in Europe, and especially Southern Europe and you can still say that you did not see anyone have overheating problems in open modified on an outdoor large track during summer.. then all I can say is that this case is an exception.
11-24-2006, 04:58 AM
#325
I've gone round the forums Orion, hpi-Europe and our main one here in the uk RCRaceChat.
I didn't see any evidence that there is an issue. I can find untold amounts of posts about how much oil there is in an XRay bearing from European drivers on this site but zip about motors/escs blowing up that didn't turn out to be user error. My friends that went to Italy didn't mention that loads of motors blew up.
If you know of Bill Hicks, I'd say it's like his joke about CNN news... all I hear is crickets - where is all this sh*t happenin?
I'd like to understand better, so if you take the time to post more detail on the facts as you see them in Greece it would be appreciated
.
I didn't see any evidence that there is an issue. I can find untold amounts of posts about how much oil there is in an XRay bearing from European drivers on this site but zip about motors/escs blowing up that didn't turn out to be user error. My friends that went to Italy didn't mention that loads of motors blew up.
If you know of Bill Hicks, I'd say it's like his joke about CNN news... all I hear is crickets - where is all this sh*t happenin?
I'd like to understand better, so if you take the time to post more detail on the facts as you see them in Greece it would be appreciated
.
11-24-2006, 05:32 AM
#326
I really don't see many racers from Europe being active on the internet.
You mentioned the Orion forum, but it has very little traffic anyway.
The Xray website has some traffic, but its mainly car related and set up.
Why on earth would someone refer to the Xray forum for motor failure?
The input the manufacturers have are mainly from their distributors. When a racer has a failure, he contacts his distributor, and in turn the distributor addresses the problem to the manufacturer.
Rarely do the racers in Europe complain on the internet.
In this manner, during the AGM, it was mentioned by different federation representatives and from manufacturers that problems do occur. I was present during the meeting and the majority agreed that a change had to be made, especially as the number of entries around Europe had decreased in open mod Touring. No one wanted to make the cars slower. We all enjoy the speed. But by doing nothing seemed to be worse than making a small change to 5 cell.
But if you are so interested in facts I can tell you that in both brushed and brushless configuration we had problems in Greece, in 4 out of 6 races.
Not to mention how many motor failures we had during practice where different settings were tested.
And because there is always that one guy who can afford to brake an arm in every race (by race, I mean event, not every run).. and thus has the luxury to tune his equipment with enough power advantage to win the majority of the races, the mentality of tuning your motor so it doesn't brake simply does not stand in this case unless you want to settle for 2nd.. knowing you dont have a chance no matter how well you can drive.
Nevertheless, I still don't understand what all this complaining is about.
It has been tested and 5 cell with brushless is just as fast as 6 cell with brushed. The only difference is the car and electronic equipment last longer without any cooling devices.
The extra cost of using receiver battery is gone, as it is illegal, and to be honest not very necessary as 5 cells can provide enough voltage for the equipment.
So what is the problem with 5 cells?
You mentioned the Orion forum, but it has very little traffic anyway.
The Xray website has some traffic, but its mainly car related and set up.
Why on earth would someone refer to the Xray forum for motor failure?
The input the manufacturers have are mainly from their distributors. When a racer has a failure, he contacts his distributor, and in turn the distributor addresses the problem to the manufacturer.
Rarely do the racers in Europe complain on the internet.
In this manner, during the AGM, it was mentioned by different federation representatives and from manufacturers that problems do occur. I was present during the meeting and the majority agreed that a change had to be made, especially as the number of entries around Europe had decreased in open mod Touring. No one wanted to make the cars slower. We all enjoy the speed. But by doing nothing seemed to be worse than making a small change to 5 cell.
But if you are so interested in facts I can tell you that in both brushed and brushless configuration we had problems in Greece, in 4 out of 6 races.
Not to mention how many motor failures we had during practice where different settings were tested.
And because there is always that one guy who can afford to brake an arm in every race (by race, I mean event, not every run).. and thus has the luxury to tune his equipment with enough power advantage to win the majority of the races, the mentality of tuning your motor so it doesn't brake simply does not stand in this case unless you want to settle for 2nd.. knowing you dont have a chance no matter how well you can drive.
Nevertheless, I still don't understand what all this complaining is about.
It has been tested and 5 cell with brushless is just as fast as 6 cell with brushed. The only difference is the car and electronic equipment last longer without any cooling devices.
The extra cost of using receiver battery is gone, as it is illegal, and to be honest not very necessary as 5 cells can provide enough voltage for the equipment.
So what is the problem with 5 cells?
11-24-2006, 06:15 AM
#327
Tech Apprentice
Take a look at the last onroad EC tc race in germany!
11-24-2006, 06:21 AM
#328
Just some idea from the Dutch Nationals and other races in Holland (Europe).
We race 6 cells, modified 12 turns and I hope from next year free turns and no brushless.
I myself blew around 4 armatures in the last season and almost every race one or more motors, armatures, end bells or esc blew.
The big difference is that most of our tracks are wide, open, fast tracks (also suitable for 1/5 cars!) we get up to speeds of approx. 85 km/h (52 mph). The motor temps after a 5 minute heat go up to 80-100 degrees Celsius (176 210 fahrenheit)!
This is why EFRA has changed the maximum amount of cells to 5. No other reason. Just to keep the cost lower by less smoking gear.
And here in Holland I hope (we are voring for that next month) that we follow EFRA rules.
We race 6 cells, modified 12 turns and I hope from next year free turns and no brushless.
I myself blew around 4 armatures in the last season and almost every race one or more motors, armatures, end bells or esc blew.
The big difference is that most of our tracks are wide, open, fast tracks (also suitable for 1/5 cars!) we get up to speeds of approx. 85 km/h (52 mph). The motor temps after a 5 minute heat go up to 80-100 degrees Celsius (176 210 fahrenheit)!
This is why EFRA has changed the maximum amount of cells to 5. No other reason. Just to keep the cost lower by less smoking gear.
And here in Holland I hope (we are voring for that next month) that we follow EFRA rules.
11-24-2006, 06:24 AM
#329
You can find many threads about overheating motors and blown escs and the advice to contact their LHS or distributor - this kind of thread where the same advice about ratio is given comes up often. These threads appear on all forums even if they are a chassis forum like XRays.
I guess you've wasted as much time as me reading about XRay battery straps and thrust bearings - so people do use forums to complain about the most minor things and discuss the day they had at the track.
The point that a 100 page thread about exploding motors and escs doesn't exist - when different batches of tyre rubber are discussed in so much detail is quite compelling to me.
I see a lot of Europeans posting here.
I guess we're not going to agree on the validity of forums for determining trends in the hobby and that's ok with me.
I'm not complaining about the decision - it has absolutely nothing to do with me. It's the inference that my gear is so close to it's limits with these new cells that a small mistake in gearing or a hot day and it's in danger of blowing up that bothers me
.
(I'm still not convinced, but your patience in trying is at least appreciated)
I guess you've wasted as much time as me reading about XRay battery straps and thrust bearings - so people do use forums to complain about the most minor things and discuss the day they had at the track.
The point that a 100 page thread about exploding motors and escs doesn't exist - when different batches of tyre rubber are discussed in so much detail is quite compelling to me.
I see a lot of Europeans posting here.
I guess we're not going to agree on the validity of forums for determining trends in the hobby and that's ok with me
.I'm not complaining about the decision - it has absolutely nothing to do with me. It's the inference that my gear is so close to it's limits with these new cells that a small mistake in gearing or a hot day and it's in danger of blowing up that bothers me
. (I'm still not convinced, but your patience in trying is at least appreciated)
11-24-2006, 06:27 AM
#330
Thanks guys - I guess my gear is safe then, just got to be careful if ever I go back and race at Halifax then!